What exactly is an EFi smoker gonna give us?

kiwifan
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3/16/2017 12:57pm
Well EFI on KTM 2 strokes will give you cleaner running, better fuel economy I would assume as its more efficient at burning fuel, less worry about fuel/oil mixture, cleaner running, better torque perhaps ...the only downer would be more expensive, we don't need more expensive bikes but people will buy them anyway as KTM has their very loyal following.

I think its great for the Enduro guys, not so sold on it being great to MX/SX though, perhaps that is why it isn't coming on those machines.....yet....
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 1:06pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 1:17pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Completely different injectors. Why would you think injectors for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine would work on a 450 single? You realize different injectors are used...
Completely different injectors. Why would you think injectors for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine would work on a 450 single? You realize different injectors are used for different sized motors? Theres a reason a civic and a semi dont use the same injectors.

Race machines do not and will never use the same injectors as a snow mobile or a car or even a street bike.

God i hope youre just a troll
Wow, really? OK Follow along junior and maybe try ecstacy instead of acid and open your mind. Lets give you a lesson on how dirt bike companies don't make the parts.
1. An injector doesn't know what it's on. It just squirts fuel in the amount and time it is told.

Take an injector, get the OEM part number, for the Brand. Bosch, ND, whatever. Do a cross reference.

If you need help, get the Part number for the bikes OEM, cross that with the actual brands part number. ie Kawasaki Pt number 123 crosses to a Bosch ABC for example

There are only a handful of injector manufacturers, just like spark plugs.
By your logic, there would be 2,000 different spark plugs. There isn't.

A NGK plug doesn't know what bike, sled, car, truck or lawnmower it is in, and neither does a freakin injector.

If you can get it for 15 bucks at autozone in a Box that says Bosch or whatever, instead of KTM, why pay 100 at the dirt bike dealer? Do some research. It's easy now with the internet.

Do you also buy 25 dollar NGK plugs in the green Kawi box?

Do you really think Hondaline oil is made by Honda?
Yamalube made by Yamaha?

Its all rebranded and labeled. Go ask your autoshop teacher.

Better yet, don't do that. He'll probably tell you Ford motor oil is made by Ford.
Ford doesn't have an oil refinery.
It's Conoco Phillips.

The OEMS don't even make their own pistons.

Savvy?
rrjr
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3/16/2017 1:18pm
rrjr wrote:
Who gives a crap about snowmobiles. They're like a quad without wheels. This is VitalMX not VitalSnowmobile/Outboard/SkidaddleIsFullOfShit
Skidaddle wrote:
Tell that to all GNCC Six Days and Baja champs with sleds out in the hills.

Where do you think all this technology comes from?

Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know.

The technology sure didn't come from snowmobiles. Unless of course they were being produced in 1902.

"An early use of indirect gasoline injection dates back to 1902, when French aviation engineer Leon Levavasseur installed it on his pioneering Antoinette 8V aircraft powerplant" (Copied from wikipedia)

bsharkey
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3/16/2017 1:19pm
Halfast816 wrote:
$10,000 two strokes........
so true. as much as I love all that ktm is putting into the new bikes technology wise on the other hand its just pricing tons of people right out of the market

The Shop

Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 1:22pm
kiwifan wrote:
Well EFI on KTM 2 strokes will give you cleaner running, better fuel economy I would assume as its more efficient at burning fuel, less worry...
Well EFI on KTM 2 strokes will give you cleaner running, better fuel economy I would assume as its more efficient at burning fuel, less worry about fuel/oil mixture, cleaner running, better torque perhaps ...the only downer would be more expensive, we don't need more expensive bikes but people will buy them anyway as KTM has their very loyal following.

I think its great for the Enduro guys, not so sold on it being great to MX/SX though, perhaps that is why it isn't coming on those machines.....yet....
EFI has nothing to do with Fuel/Oil mixture.

Oil injection does, or your ability to operate a ratio rite.
Motofinne
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3/16/2017 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 1:29pm
Halfast816 wrote:
$10,000 two strokes........
bsharkey wrote:
so true. as much as I love all that ktm is putting into the new bikes technology wise on the other hand its just pricing tons...
so true. as much as I love all that ktm is putting into the new bikes technology wise on the other hand its just pricing tons of people right out of the market
By far the biggest myth in our sport is that new 2 strokes are cheap. I have been thinking about getting a 2017 SX 250 and both the YZ and SX are 8490€ here in Finland.

The EXCs are of course even more expensive, especially if you want to register them for the road.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 1:24pm
rrjr wrote:
Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know. The technology sure didn't come from snowmobiles. Unless of course...
Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know.

The technology sure didn't come from snowmobiles. Unless of course they were being produced in 1902.

"An early use of indirect gasoline injection dates back to 1902, when French aviation engineer Leon Levavasseur installed it on his pioneering Antoinette 8V aircraft powerplant" (Copied from wikipedia)

Well, the guy who developed the EFI system on Polaris and later Suzukis, was developed by a guy in Arizona.

How bah dah.
rrjr
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3/16/2017 1:35pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 1:39pm
Acidreamer wrote:
Completely different injectors. Why would you think injectors for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine would work on a 450 single? You realize different injectors are used...
Completely different injectors. Why would you think injectors for a 250cc 2 cylinder engine would work on a 450 single? You realize different injectors are used for different sized motors? Theres a reason a civic and a semi dont use the same injectors.

Race machines do not and will never use the same injectors as a snow mobile or a car or even a street bike.

God i hope youre just a troll
Skidaddle wrote:
Wow, really? OK Follow along junior and maybe try ecstacy instead of acid and open your mind. Lets give you a lesson on how dirt bike...
Wow, really? OK Follow along junior and maybe try ecstacy instead of acid and open your mind. Lets give you a lesson on how dirt bike companies don't make the parts.
1. An injector doesn't know what it's on. It just squirts fuel in the amount and time it is told.

Take an injector, get the OEM part number, for the Brand. Bosch, ND, whatever. Do a cross reference.

If you need help, get the Part number for the bikes OEM, cross that with the actual brands part number. ie Kawasaki Pt number 123 crosses to a Bosch ABC for example

There are only a handful of injector manufacturers, just like spark plugs.
By your logic, there would be 2,000 different spark plugs. There isn't.

A NGK plug doesn't know what bike, sled, car, truck or lawnmower it is in, and neither does a freakin injector.

If you can get it for 15 bucks at autozone in a Box that says Bosch or whatever, instead of KTM, why pay 100 at the dirt bike dealer? Do some research. It's easy now with the internet.

Do you also buy 25 dollar NGK plugs in the green Kawi box?

Do you really think Hondaline oil is made by Honda?
Yamalube made by Yamaha?

Its all rebranded and labeled. Go ask your autoshop teacher.

Better yet, don't do that. He'll probably tell you Ford motor oil is made by Ford.
Ford doesn't have an oil refinery.
It's Conoco Phillips.

The OEMS don't even make their own pistons.

Savvy?
Bosch has 160 sku part numbers for both direct and port type fuel injectors that are installed as oem equipment on over 38 million vehicles.

Not a single part number from any Bosch fuel injector cross references to any mx application.

This information is directly from the Bosch website.

How would you even know what parts cross reference? You said you've never had to replace any EFI related parts in 30 years.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 4:40pm
rrjr wrote:
Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know. The technology sure didn't come from snowmobiles. Unless of course...
Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know.

The technology sure didn't come from snowmobiles. Unless of course they were being produced in 1902.

"An early use of indirect gasoline injection dates back to 1902, when French aviation engineer Leon Levavasseur installed it on his pioneering Antoinette 8V aircraft powerplant" (Copied from wikipedia)

rrjr wrote: Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know.

This guy was pretty good back in the USA ISDE days. I'm pretty sure this old man will go bigger than you on his track driven quad.






526
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3/16/2017 1:52pm
I think it will give a World Peace from what I hear?
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 1:53pm
rrjr wrote:
Bosch has 160 sku part numbers for both direct and port type fuel injectors that are installed as oem equipment on over 38 million vehicles. Not...
Bosch has 160 sku part numbers for both direct and port type fuel injectors that are installed as oem equipment on over 38 million vehicles.

Not a single part number from any Bosch fuel injector cross references to any mx application.

This information is directly from the Bosch website.

How would you even know what parts cross reference? You said you've never had to replace any EFI related parts in 30 years.
Because since they are cheap I have a spare and can be changed as quick as a spark plug.

Mine are Bosch and cross to multiple other brands.
I already stated I dont know who each OEM dirt bikes outsource to because 4 stroke bikes interest me zero.
Take one out and look!

Im guessing there are as many manufacturers as spark plugs. 10 or so major brands.


Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 2:04pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 3:28pm
Well Well Well.

In less than 5 minutes I was able to find who makes the electrical and fuel injection parts for damn near everyone and every industry.

So now all you have to do is get your cross reference sheets or find where they sell non rebranded parts.
kiwifan
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3/16/2017 2:11pm
kiwifan wrote:
Well EFI on KTM 2 strokes will give you cleaner running, better fuel economy I would assume as its more efficient at burning fuel, less worry...
Well EFI on KTM 2 strokes will give you cleaner running, better fuel economy I would assume as its more efficient at burning fuel, less worry about fuel/oil mixture, cleaner running, better torque perhaps ...the only downer would be more expensive, we don't need more expensive bikes but people will buy them anyway as KTM has their very loyal following.

I think its great for the Enduro guys, not so sold on it being great to MX/SX though, perhaps that is why it isn't coming on those machines.....yet....
Skidaddle wrote:
EFI has nothing to do with Fuel/Oil mixture.

Oil injection does, or your ability to operate a ratio rite.
yeah to be honest I hadn't had a good look at the KTM design to see if the oil injection was being done as part of the EFI system...my bad, clearly you have.
GrapeApe
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3/16/2017 2:21pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Because since they are cheap I have a spare and can be changed as quick as a spark plug. Mine are Bosch and cross to multiple...
Because since they are cheap I have a spare and can be changed as quick as a spark plug.

Mine are Bosch and cross to multiple other brands.
I already stated I dont know who each OEM dirt bikes outsource to because 4 stroke bikes interest me zero.
Take one out and look!

Im guessing there are as many manufacturers as spark plugs. 10 or so major brands.


So never a failure in 30 years, but you carry a spare with you?

Listen, nobody here gives a rats ass about EFI in snowmobiles, boats, airplanes, road bikes, or any other application. We are interested in how 2 stroke motocross/off-road bikes will respond to the new-to-us technology. Absolutely nothing you have added in any of these threads helps anyone with the subject at hand. I'm happy that Bosch is your preferred brand of injector for your fishing boat, but seriously?

Your next screen name here really should be Cliff Clavin.
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 2:44pm
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts.

And for your question,
I also happen to have a spare plug for my Honda 2000 generator, which it has NEVER fouled a plug, and is going on about 12 or 13 years old now. I keep it in a plastic bag behind the little side cover stuffed by the airbox. Imagine that concept! Just in case!

And I've never owned a fishing boat out of the 9 I've owned. And the engines I buy can't be bought at a fishing boat place. Sooooooooooooo, you're pretty far off base. Again.
They don't sell 9,000 RPM premix race outboards at bass shops. LOL Or surfacing propellers than can stand that RPM.

In fact, only one had a gastly 4 stroke engine, a Centurion wakeboard boat, which is now my uncles boat.

You seem to me that you need to get outside and experience the outdoor world some before you die and it all passes by. There is so much to do!
GrapeApe
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3/16/2017 2:54pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts. And for your question, I also happen to have a spare...
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts.

And for your question,
I also happen to have a spare plug for my Honda 2000 generator, which it has NEVER fouled a plug, and is going on about 12 or 13 years old now. I keep it in a plastic bag behind the little side cover stuffed by the airbox. Imagine that concept! Just in case!

And I've never owned a fishing boat out of the 9 I've owned. And the engines I buy can't be bought at a fishing boat place. Sooooooooooooo, you're pretty far off base. Again.
They don't sell 9,000 RPM premix race outboards at bass shops. LOL Or surfacing propellers than can stand that RPM.

In fact, only one had a gastly 4 stroke engine, a Centurion wakeboard boat, which is now my uncles boat.

You seem to me that you need to get outside and experience the outdoor world some before you die and it all passes by. There is so much to do!
I'll be in the Ouachita Mountains for a 60 mile MTB race next weekend if you want to snowmobile over and say hello.
bobojim
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3/16/2017 2:58pm
Wow. Talk about missing the woods for the trees.
hvaughn88
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3/16/2017 4:00pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts. And for your question, I also happen to have a spare...
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts.

And for your question,
I also happen to have a spare plug for my Honda 2000 generator, which it has NEVER fouled a plug, and is going on about 12 or 13 years old now. I keep it in a plastic bag behind the little side cover stuffed by the airbox. Imagine that concept! Just in case!

And I've never owned a fishing boat out of the 9 I've owned. And the engines I buy can't be bought at a fishing boat place. Sooooooooooooo, you're pretty far off base. Again.
They don't sell 9,000 RPM premix race outboards at bass shops. LOL Or surfacing propellers than can stand that RPM.

In fact, only one had a gastly 4 stroke engine, a Centurion wakeboard boat, which is now my uncles boat.

You seem to me that you need to get outside and experience the outdoor world some before you die and it all passes by. There is so much to do!
GrapeApe wrote:
I'll be in the Ouachita Mountains for a 60 mile MTB race next weekend if you want to snowmobile over and say hello.
Womble?
BobPA
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3/16/2017 4:24pm
Skidaddle wrote:
rrjr wrote: [i]Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know.[/i] This guy was pretty good back in the...
rrjr wrote: Next time I see any "Champs" riding on their track driven quads I'll let them know.

This guy was pretty good back in the USA ISDE days. I'm pretty sure this old man will go bigger than you on his track driven quad.






Wildly off subject but I have that same Troy Lee helmet in my trophy case lol. I've had it since 2005
3/16/2017 4:26pm
Thank you to those that have gone to the trouble of typing their technical explanations; very interesting, not cool to those that resort to name-calling.

I have a thought on 2-stroke efi, surely the bike could have a handlebar mounted switch that could swap spark plug firing between every TDC and every second TDC (as per a 4-stroke), one could switch to the 4-stroke cycle in poor traction conditions?

Sure the ecu would adjust the fuel injector to squirt every second TDC, any other considerations from those with thoughts on the subject?
GrapeApe
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3/16/2017 4:50pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts. And for your question, I also happen to have a spare...
Grape, for what it's worth, It's the same technology and alot of the same parts.

And for your question,
I also happen to have a spare plug for my Honda 2000 generator, which it has NEVER fouled a plug, and is going on about 12 or 13 years old now. I keep it in a plastic bag behind the little side cover stuffed by the airbox. Imagine that concept! Just in case!

And I've never owned a fishing boat out of the 9 I've owned. And the engines I buy can't be bought at a fishing boat place. Sooooooooooooo, you're pretty far off base. Again.
They don't sell 9,000 RPM premix race outboards at bass shops. LOL Or surfacing propellers than can stand that RPM.

In fact, only one had a gastly 4 stroke engine, a Centurion wakeboard boat, which is now my uncles boat.

You seem to me that you need to get outside and experience the outdoor world some before you die and it all passes by. There is so much to do!
GrapeApe wrote:
I'll be in the Ouachita Mountains for a 60 mile MTB race next weekend if you want to snowmobile over and say hello.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Womble?
LOViT on Friday, Womble/OC on Saturday, and Iron Mountain on Sunday, right in your neck of the woods!
Dtat720
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3/16/2017 4:57pm
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single cylinder stand alones with on the fly tuning via 5 wire o2 sensor. Man.... the possibilities are endless.
BobPA
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3/16/2017 5:02pm
Dtat720 wrote:
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single...
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single cylinder stand alones with on the fly tuning via 5 wire o2 sensor. Man.... the possibilities are endless.
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything set.
hvaughn88
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3/16/2017 5:02pm
GrapeApe wrote:
I'll be in the Ouachita Mountains for a 60 mile MTB race next weekend if you want to snowmobile over and say hello.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Womble?
GrapeApe wrote:
LOViT on Friday, Womble/OC on Saturday, and Iron Mountain on Sunday, right in your neck of the woods!
Very cool! Good luck, be safe and kick ass
Dtat720
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3/16/2017 5:17pm
Dtat720 wrote:
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single...
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single cylinder stand alones with on the fly tuning via 5 wire o2 sensor. Man.... the possibilities are endless.
BobPA wrote:
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything...
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything set.
I ran the e6s and then the e6k on my mr2's and supra's. They are amazing pieces. Take your time with it. Steve at Alamo Motorsports helped me when I first started with them in 1999. I dont know if they are even still around but if they are, he is a Haltec guru and can answer any question you may have. Peter Ferrel supercars used them for a while on 13b's. They could be a big help for you as well
Skidaddle
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3/16/2017 5:23pm
Dtat720 wrote:
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single...
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single cylinder stand alones with on the fly tuning via 5 wire o2 sensor. Man.... the possibilities are endless.
BobPA wrote:
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything...
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything set.
Check out all this stuff from 6 years ago when the E tec 800 was brand new and people said, "You can't turbo an E tec."

kkawboy14
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3/16/2017 5:26pm Edited Date/Time 3/16/2017 5:26pm
They will give us 237 miles per gallon on race fuel! And torqued wing nuts!
MotoX85
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3/16/2017 5:42pm
5% loss in power, 3 extra sensors and $1000 increase in parts. And if you can't tune s carb, no way in hell could you every fix a fuel injection sustem
doofy
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3/16/2017 5:43pm
Dont most people want a 2t for the simplicity, lower cost and lighter weight? Efi goes against all of that. Carbs on 2t arent as finnicky anyway IMO. As far as flame outs, the fcr bog, and less jetting circuits.

I remember when ktm efi first came out on the 4t i had a buddy racing gncc who was ktm supported and he had a 350. I think he dnf at least 50% of the races that year with fuel problems, something about the injectors clogging bc of the pickup being too low in the tank and collecting gunk. And this ismt joe blow either, like i said a factory supported rider. He was driving hours and hours across the country's knowing the end result would be amother dnf but was obligated to be there.

Thats not to say all efi is shit, its great when it works correctly. Some manufacturers seemed to have it dialed. I know to this day, the worst running/performing machine i ever owned was also the one i spent the most $ on. A 2011 yfzr quad. All stock brand new you had to slowly apply throttle or it would choke out and stall. I bought a pipe and a tuner for another grand to get my brand new $9k machine to run correctly and it still didnt fix it. I called motoxperts and they said "oh yeah, that hike HAS to have a vortex ecu to run properly, you didnt get a dud they're all that way". The vortex was $700.
Dtat720
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3/16/2017 5:46pm
Dtat720 wrote:
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single...
Having efi on a 2 stroke will open the door for stand alone ecu's and developing your own maps for whatever you desire. Haltec makes single cylinder stand alones with on the fly tuning via 5 wire o2 sensor. Man.... the possibilities are endless.
BobPA wrote:
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything...
Just bought a haltech system for my rotary. Seems like an awesome piece, bit of a learning curve though....Gonna take me a bit to get everything set.
Skidaddle wrote:
Check out all this stuff from 6 years ago when the E tec 800 was brand new and people said, "You can't turbo an E tec."...
Check out all this stuff from 6 years ago when the E tec 800 was brand new and people said, "You can't turbo an E tec."

Anything can be turbo'ed. Have you ever seen a turbo weedeater?! Garret makes these turbos that are the size of a tennis ball. Makes a weedeater badass lol

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