sx was ruined by 450s

NATEP231
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NATEP231 3/9/2017 1:33pm
3/9/2017 1:33pm
brocster wrote:
triple, triple, quad...
GuyB wrote:
Huh...guess it depends on how you count the jumps. For me it'd be more like...

Not doing that, or that, that either.
brocster wrote:
right! you said it. I count "jumps" (mounds of dirt) not the possibility of the places to land... have fun! btw. I would struggle with however...
right! you said it. I count "jumps" (mounds of dirt) not the possibility of the places to land...


have fun!


btw. I would struggle with however they are laid out and probably just jump the table in the middle as "one" jump Wink
I love this topic

Juice_Mann
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Juice_Mann 3/9/2017 1:34pm
3/9/2017 1:34pm
I'm reading through all of these posts and I can't believe I'm the first guy to say this.. James would've nailed that section on a 125.
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SigPig 3/9/2017 1:42pm
3/9/2017 1:42pm
Juice_Mann wrote:
I'm reading through all of these posts and I can't believe I'm the first guy to say this.. James would've nailed that section on a 125.
Super-Mini
Juice_Mann
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Juice_Mann 3/9/2017 1:48pm
3/9/2017 1:48pm
Juice_Mann wrote:
I'm reading through all of these posts and I can't believe I'm the first guy to say this.. James would've nailed that section on a 125.
SigPig wrote:
Super-Mini
You're probably right. I hate turning this into another Stewart thread, but if this sport had stayed on 2 strokes he would still be "The Man".

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Jamal#440
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Jamal#440 3/9/2017 2:00pm
3/9/2017 2:00pm
Juice_Mann wrote:
You're probably right. I hate turning this into another Stewart thread, but if this sport had stayed on 2 strokes he would still be "The Man".
Exactly,
Jamal#440
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Jamal#440 3/9/2017 2:01pm
3/9/2017 2:01pm
Something ruined Sx-not sure it was fart strokes.
smashingpumpkins167
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smashingpumpkins167 3/9/2017 2:09pm
3/9/2017 2:09pm
early wrote:
I wonder what year had the most sx winners? More relevent for the modern era 1980(?)-present.
Probably 1997, and the last round was won by a four stroke Sad
aFACEdismembered
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aFACEdismembered 3/9/2017 2:20pm
3/9/2017 2:20pm
brocster wrote:
triple, triple, quad...
GuyB wrote:
Huh...guess it depends on how you count the jumps. For me it'd be more like...

Not doing that, or that, that either.
brocster wrote:
right! you said it. I count "jumps" (mounds of dirt) not the possibility of the places to land... have fun! btw. I would struggle with however...
right! you said it. I count "jumps" (mounds of dirt) not the possibility of the places to land...


have fun!


btw. I would struggle with however they are laid out and probably just jump the table in the middle as "one" jump Wink
Not arguing, just being philosophical.

mound
noun
1. a rounded mass projecting above a surface.

A tabletop is not a rounded mass and has 2 places to jump from mid rhythm. The face or off the top.

Stuff like this is why this debate will never come to a common conclusion.
early
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early 3/9/2017 2:28pm
3/9/2017 2:28pm
early wrote:
I wonder what year had the most sx winners? More relevent for the modern era 1980(?)-present.
smashingpumpkins167 wrote:
Probably 1997, and the last round was won by a four stroke Sad
Just gave it a look, Albertyn, Henry, Huffman, Lusk, McGrath, Emig. Strong contender.
bultokid
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bultokid 3/9/2017 2:45pm
3/9/2017 2:45pm Edited Date/Time 3/9/2017 2:46pm
I just wish I EVER had the skills to do that, just once , to see what it would have really felt like.
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Timo_2824 3/9/2017 2:52pm
3/9/2017 2:52pm
Rosso391 wrote:
YUP! Sport has been going downhill the fastest since 2006. My first brand new YZ250F in 2004 was around $3500 sale price. Now they're over double...
YUP! Sport has been going downhill the fastest since 2006. My first brand new YZ250F in 2004 was around $3500 sale price. Now they're over double that! That's insane.
That was a helluva deal, MSRP was $5599.00, I paid $6000.00 for a 04 KX250 that year.
jorgechavez 3/9/2017 4:22pm
3/9/2017 4:22pm
Rosso391 wrote:
I'm not saying they're skill-less. I never said they didn't have technique. I'm saying you can ride a 450 very lazy, jump easier and STILL be...
I'm not saying they're skill-less. I never said they didn't have technique. I'm saying you can ride a 450 very lazy, jump easier and STILL be going faster.
I know what you mean and it maybe seems that way to people like you or me who aren't at the top level but I think the speeds at which these guys are riding and hitting the obstacles it requires a tremendous amount of skill and technique to stay up. I wouldn't say anymore than the 2 stroke days, but definitely not any less, either. I think it's just a different technique.
Phillip_Lamb
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Phillip_Lamb 3/9/2017 4:37pm
3/9/2017 4:37pm
scott_nz wrote:
Mcgrath went 15-1 on a 2 stroke, RC went 15-2 on one as well, with only one other winner both those years, depth has varied a...
Mcgrath went 15-1 on a 2 stroke, RC went 15-2 on one as well, with only one other winner both those years,

depth has varied a fair bit over the years, I dont think there has been a year in the four stroke era with only 2 winners in a season, 06 with Reed, RC and JS is the about the closest,
ATKpilot99 wrote:
Thats true . My point was we always hear how crazy deep the field is each year when really its not a whole lot different.
depth is really subjective. when RC JS and CR22 were racing the amount of guys who had a 450/250 win to their name or even a 125/250 title were only a handful.

(bold 125 title) (italic 250 win)
2006
1 James Stewart
2 Chad Reed
3 Ricky Carmichael
4 Mike LaRocco
5 Ivan Tedesco
6 Ernesto Fonseca
7 Nicholas Wey
8 Travis A Preston
9 Michael Byrne
10 David Vuillemin
11 [b]Jeremy McGrath [/b]
12 Michael Brown
13 Kyle Lewis
14 Jeff Gibson
15 Justin Buckelew
16 Ryan D Clark
17 Clark Stiles
18 Jason Thomas
19 Erick Vallejo
20 Heath Voss

VS

2017
Ken Roczen
Ryan Dungey
Marvin Musquin
Jason Anderson
Eli Tomac
Cole Seely
Davi Millsaps
Weston Peick
Josh Grant
Cooper Webb
Jake Weimer
Justin Bogle
Dean Wilson
Blake Baggett
Justin Brayton
Broc Tickle
Vince Friese
Jimmy Albertson
Nick Schmidt
Chad Reed
Mike Alessi
Trey Canard

(Not at A1)
Justin Barcia
Malcolm Stewart
Crush
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Crush 3/9/2017 4:49pm
3/9/2017 4:49pm
GuyB wrote:
It's definitely impressive. The four-strokes have definitely made possible things that were previously impossible. But as the bikes have gotten better, so has the technique...and the...
It's definitely impressive. The four-strokes have definitely made possible things that were previously impossible. But as the bikes have gotten better, so has the technique...and the overall depth of the talent in the field.
Not sure I agree on the technique... The fastest two stroke riders had to be more accomplished to circle a SX track faster than on a four stroke.

I think the "depth" of field that we see now, is a direct result of four strokes being easier to ride... But it hasn't made for better racing, definitely not in the 450s.

The bikes are so good and they're at the limits of physics and fear, so instead of guys being able to really push to make a difference – the tradition of MX, where it wasn't about the bike – so if you grabbed your balls you could and not risk death, you could.

NOW? Well, look at Jimmy Fucking Albertson, top 20 in 450s, go a retarded triple quad quad line that would never be raced and basically you're dead if you fuck it up. No slant on Jimmy.
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brocster 3/9/2017 5:13pm
3/9/2017 5:13pm
GuyB wrote:
Huh...guess it depends on how you count the jumps. For me it'd be more like...

Not doing that, or that, that either.
brocster wrote:
right! you said it. I count "jumps" (mounds of dirt) not the possibility of the places to land... have fun! btw. I would struggle with however...
right! you said it. I count "jumps" (mounds of dirt) not the possibility of the places to land...


have fun!


btw. I would struggle with however they are laid out and probably just jump the table in the middle as "one" jump Wink
aFACEdismembered wrote:
Not arguing, just being philosophical. mound noun 1. a rounded mass projecting above a surface. A tabletop is not a rounded mass and has 2 places...
Not arguing, just being philosophical.

mound
noun
1. a rounded mass projecting above a surface.

A tabletop is not a rounded mass and has 2 places to jump from mid rhythm. The face or off the top.

Stuff like this is why this debate will never come to a common conclusion.
Obstacle - something that impedes progress or achievement.

A tabletop is an obstacle as a whole. He flew over three obstacles therefore triple. Then four obstacles therefore Quad.


By using your logic I can't wait til Monday coffee pot talk at work to tell the guys I did the triple, albeit it was only a tabletop, since you are counting it as two obstacles.

Argue on...

Crush
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Crush 3/9/2017 5:38pm
3/9/2017 5:38pm
Phillip_Lamb wrote:
depth is really subjective. when RC JS and CR22 were racing the amount of guys who had a 450/250 win to their name or even a...
depth is really subjective. when RC JS and CR22 were racing the amount of guys who had a 450/250 win to their name or even a 125/250 title were only a handful.

(bold 125 title) (italic 250 win)
2006
1 James Stewart
2 Chad Reed
3 Ricky Carmichael
4 Mike LaRocco
5 Ivan Tedesco
6 Ernesto Fonseca
7 Nicholas Wey
8 Travis A Preston
9 Michael Byrne
10 David Vuillemin
11 [b]Jeremy McGrath [/b]
12 Michael Brown
13 Kyle Lewis
14 Jeff Gibson
15 Justin Buckelew
16 Ryan D Clark
17 Clark Stiles
18 Jason Thomas
19 Erick Vallejo
20 Heath Voss

VS

2017
Ken Roczen
Ryan Dungey
Marvin Musquin
Jason Anderson
Eli Tomac
Cole Seely
Davi Millsaps
Weston Peick
Josh Grant
Cooper Webb
Jake Weimer
Justin Bogle
Dean Wilson
Blake Baggett
Justin Brayton
Broc Tickle
Vince Friese
Jimmy Albertson
Nick Schmidt
Chad Reed
Mike Alessi
Trey Canard

(Not at A1)
Justin Barcia
Malcolm Stewart
Probably worth noting the farm team effect too... Lot of those kids through Geico, Star, PC, KTM, Husky, Zook etc... Was only really PC back in the day...
jemcee
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jemcee 3/9/2017 7:24pm
3/9/2017 7:24pm
brocster wrote:
Obstacle - something that impedes progress or achievement. A tabletop is an obstacle as a whole. He flew over three obstacles therefore triple. Then four obstacles...
Obstacle - something that impedes progress or achievement.

A tabletop is an obstacle as a whole. He flew over three obstacles therefore triple. Then four obstacles therefore Quad.


By using your logic I can't wait til Monday coffee pot talk at work to tell the guys I did the triple, albeit it was only a tabletop, since you are counting it as two obstacles.

Argue on...

I think it just depends if you consider a table top and an on off as the same thing.. which I don't think they are cause it's pretty rare that you'll jump entirely over a traditional table top and even rarer that you'd land on one and jump off it over another obstacle.. and conversely you don't normally just jump over an on off
My 2 cents
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endurox 3/9/2017 7:38pm
3/9/2017 7:38pm
GuyB wrote:
It's definitely impressive. The four-strokes have definitely made possible things that were previously impossible. But as the bikes have gotten better, so has the technique...and the...
It's definitely impressive. The four-strokes have definitely made possible things that were previously impossible. But as the bikes have gotten better, so has the technique...and the overall depth of the talent in the field.
Crush wrote:
Not sure I agree on the technique... The fastest two stroke riders had to be more accomplished to circle a SX track faster than on a...
Not sure I agree on the technique... The fastest two stroke riders had to be more accomplished to circle a SX track faster than on a four stroke.

I think the "depth" of field that we see now, is a direct result of four strokes being easier to ride... But it hasn't made for better racing, definitely not in the 450s.

The bikes are so good and they're at the limits of physics and fear, so instead of guys being able to really push to make a difference – the tradition of MX, where it wasn't about the bike – so if you grabbed your balls you could and not risk death, you could.

NOW? Well, look at Jimmy Fucking Albertson, top 20 in 450s, go a retarded triple quad quad line that would never be raced and basically you're dead if you fuck it up. No slant on Jimmy.
450 guys are up in the air more than on the ground. Old school were on the ground more than air time. The old school
racers were tougher and the racing was better on 2 strokes.

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OW38B
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OW38B 3/9/2017 7:39pm
3/9/2017 7:39pm
Juice_Mann wrote:
I'm reading through all of these posts and I can't believe I'm the first guy to say this.. James would've nailed that section on a 125.
70% less displacement.......

Project 2501
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Project 2501 3/9/2017 8:52pm
3/9/2017 8:52pm
the other thing to consider is diabetes. it really changes things. anyone who knows anything about geology knows 4 strokes = diabetes.
stoop
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stoop 3/9/2017 9:00pm
3/9/2017 9:00pm
Haven't read through all the comments and someone has probably already said it but, 4 strokes have made it easier for a lot more people to go fast, where as 2 strokes, their was a bigger gap between the elite and just the fast guys
Sargent Rock
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Sargent Rock 3/9/2017 10:01pm
3/9/2017 10:01pm
Get rid of 4 inches on the suspension and watch how fast this would change .
Mit12
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Mit12 3/9/2017 11:19pm
3/9/2017 11:19pm Edited Date/Time 3/9/2017 11:20pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
I agree except for the depth. You can narrow down who's going to win to 2 or 3 riders.
I disagree, the number of guys that can win is determined by how fast the fastest rider is. When a guy like Mc wins 10 to 14 races a season it limits the number of chances the other riders have to win a race. Guys like Hannah, Johnson, Mc, Rc, Rv and Dungey make it hard for the 3rd and 4th fastest riders to win a race. It comes down to simple math.
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mmcmx 3/10/2017 1:02am
3/10/2017 1:02am
I don't understant why evolution or progress have a positive connotation to some people, the modern world sucks.
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wsc96 3/10/2017 1:31am
3/10/2017 1:31am
stoop wrote:
Haven't read through all the comments and someone has probably already said it but, 4 strokes have made it easier for a lot more people to...
Haven't read through all the comments and someone has probably already said it but, 4 strokes have made it easier for a lot more people to go fast, where as 2 strokes, their was a bigger gap between the elite and just the fast guys
It has been said and people got their panties in a bunch.
singletotable88
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singletotable88 3/10/2017 5:45am
3/10/2017 5:45am
I would say the talent is less than it ever has been. Throw all these guys on 250 2t and see who is still hitting all the sections. Maybe 10 at most. The rest would have never survived in the late 90's/early 2000's. Now you just turn the throttle and jump the entire infield. The guys who grew up on 2t get it. The under 25 crowd likes to pretend that they could hang with the older guys as they have only ever ridden 4 t big bikes but they would have been smashed.
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BobPA 3/10/2017 5:50am
3/10/2017 5:50am
singletotable88 wrote:
I would say the talent is less than it ever has been. Throw all these guys on 250 2t and see who is still hitting all...
I would say the talent is less than it ever has been. Throw all these guys on 250 2t and see who is still hitting all the sections. Maybe 10 at most. The rest would have never survived in the late 90's/early 2000's. Now you just turn the throttle and jump the entire infield. The guys who grew up on 2t get it. The under 25 crowd likes to pretend that they could hang with the older guys as they have only ever ridden 4 t big bikes but they would have been smashed.
You are so far out of touch it is hilarious. No shit they would struggle on a two stroke. I'd be willing to be that a lot of these young kids never rode a 250 smoker. But to say they have no talent, get fucking real.
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Bramlett321 3/10/2017 6:07am
3/10/2017 6:07am
GuyB wrote:
It's definitely impressive. The four-strokes have definitely made possible things that were previously impossible. But as the bikes have gotten better, so has the technique...and the...
It's definitely impressive. The four-strokes have definitely made possible things that were previously impossible. But as the bikes have gotten better, so has the technique...and the overall depth of the talent in the field.
Stew did it on a KX125!!!
PastranaWho
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PastranaWho 3/10/2017 6:30am
3/10/2017 6:30am
CrGuy2T wrote:
Who cares it's called evolution. Get over it.
gt80rider wrote:
Thank goodness for evolution... Bike sales are in the shitter just like entries at local races... YAY!!!!
Blame inflation.Woohoo

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