Is ML512 high?

Ted722
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Ted722 11/16/2016 8:14am
11/16/2016 8:14am
Regardless of their shootout "rank", KTM/Husky definitely are on the short list for a rider's purchasing decision. In every class, MX or Off-Road.

I know there's a lot of Vets thinking on stepping down from a 450...even thinking about a 250f. My personal wish list, would be a 150 2-stroke, 250 2-stroke, 250F, 350, and 450 comparo every year.. I've seen these before, but hopefully another one's on the way.
IceMan446
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IceMan446 11/16/2016 8:34am
11/16/2016 8:34am
Ted722 wrote:
Regardless of their shootout "rank", KTM/Husky definitely are on the short list for a rider's purchasing decision. In every class, MX or Off-Road. I know there's...
Regardless of their shootout "rank", KTM/Husky definitely are on the short list for a rider's purchasing decision. In every class, MX or Off-Road.

I know there's a lot of Vets thinking on stepping down from a 450...even thinking about a 250f. My personal wish list, would be a 150 2-stroke, 250 2-stroke, 250F, 350, and 450 comparo every year.. I've seen these before, but hopefully another one's on the way.
I want to see a good 350 to 250 comparison.

And I know the obvious advantages but to see it from lets say a Vet riders perspective would be cool.

Im not man enough for a 450 but I need a little more juice than my 250 can offer so a 350 might be next for me.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/16/2016 9:11am
11/16/2016 9:11am
I personally think all the 2017 bikes are amazing, yes some are down on power and some might handle better than others but technology wise they are really great bikes. After reading this thread I looked back over the 17 shootout and here are some cliff notes about the Yamaha handling. It obviously wasn't just ML having these thoughts and making the bike come in 4th place. It was all 6 dudes. Maybe if you took another group of 6 riders, you would get different results, but the notes below are pretty straight forward in my eyes...

“I felt that I had to change my riding style and almost exaggerate it by sitting very far forward to get it to stay with the corner. The front wheel felt like it would push going into the turns and even climb out of a rut if I wasn't far enough over the front.” –Pat

“The chassis setup and handling of the YZ was stable, but bike balance wasn't the best as the front was low at times and the rear a bit high, causing a stinkbug affect.”- Zach

“My first impression when riding the bike was how much I was struggling under braking and actually getting the bike to find its way into a rut without losing feel and control.” -ML

“I was really struggling in the corners, especially through ruts as the bike just seemed to fight me and wouldn't glide through the corners.” –Ryan

“The front end push of this bike gave me a severe distaste on almost every turn entrance, and I felt like the front tire was going to wash out and put me on my face.” -Chris

“Mostly I was adjusting my center weight about three to four inches further forward to keep my weight into the forks to get the bike to plant as I changed directions. Cornering was difficult, as I struggled to sweep and keep my momentum up.” -Tommy
DL
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DL 11/16/2016 9:15am
11/16/2016 9:15am
Having worked at ENZO with Ross and Will, Michael has learned more about suspension and chassis than the average bear. I'd go so far as to say he is the most qualified test rider/editor in the industry. My two cents.

The Shop

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TeamPumpin 11/16/2016 9:29am
11/16/2016 9:29am
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017 models, much less all of them, so I'm just following the lead of what they were saying last night on Pulp. There was another test rider (can't recall who it was) that called in last night and echoed what Matthes and Keefer were saying about the Yamaha and how it could be no worse than second place. He mentioned how the vast majority of amateurs and privateers use the YZ250F as their platform to build a race bike because it's the best thing available. I respect ML and his "posse" (no offense, LeBron) for going outside the box of everyone else and giving a different reading on these machines. I just don't see how all the other reviews can have Yamaha ranked so much higher on average.
acres951
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acres951 11/16/2016 9:39am
11/16/2016 9:39am
I sometimes get the sense that ML is seen as the outsider by those guys and they likely, subconsciously, fear his perspective as it's a bit of a challenge to their rhetoric.
I haven't even read the test or heard the show yet though! Just past comments that have been made that I'm going off of.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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CarlinoJoeVideo 11/16/2016 9:41am
11/16/2016 9:41am
TeamPumpin wrote:
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017...
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017 models, much less all of them, so I'm just following the lead of what they were saying last night on Pulp. There was another test rider (can't recall who it was) that called in last night and echoed what Matthes and Keefer were saying about the Yamaha and how it could be no worse than second place. He mentioned how the vast majority of amateurs and privateers use the YZ250F as their platform to build a race bike because it's the best thing available. I respect ML and his "posse" (no offense, LeBron) for going outside the box of everyone else and giving a different reading on these machines. I just don't see how all the other reviews can have Yamaha ranked so much higher on average.
I think the bigger discussion will come when Transworld and MXA 250 shootout go live.

But to be honest I think if you took 4 groups of test riders you will get similar but different results all 4 times.
Francis377
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Francis377 11/16/2016 9:45am
11/16/2016 9:45am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2016 9:47am
Bike shoot outs are always a shit show. Seems like there is some hive mentality going as once some opinion leader says something about a bike everyone just follows. I think it's pretty cool that ML is confident enough in his test and the process behind it to publish results even though they might differ from the general consensus. So many pulp listeners are lonely losers that will go with anything Matthes says because it makes them feel like insiders. Matthes is great but he can be wrong too, the people sucking up to him and just going with whatever Matthes thinks is cool are pathetic. Like that Nash guy. C'mon Nash, you don't know shit about dirt bikes so shut it.
BTW I ride a Suzuki so I really don't care ahahaa
resetjet
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resetjet 11/16/2016 10:05am
11/16/2016 10:05am
Its that goofy tank, shroud setup, makes the bike seem so wide........Of course it was that way when it won too,
Madmax31
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Madmax31 11/16/2016 10:08am
11/16/2016 10:08am
TeamPumpin wrote:
Currently listening to Pulp, and that is the question of the night. I, for one totally agree that Michael and his posse of goon riders must...
Currently listening to Pulp, and that is the question of the night. I, for one totally agree that Michael and his posse of goon riders must be tested for narcotics. Yes, I heard him call in and give his so called explanation. But I don't buy it. No one in their right state of mind will put the YZ250F FOURTH. FOURTH?? This is almost worth a protest.
Go stand in the street with the other protesters. Your feelings hurt?
Motofinne
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Motofinne 11/16/2016 10:11am
11/16/2016 10:11am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2016 10:11am
resetjet wrote:
Its that goofy tank, shroud setup, makes the bike seem so wide........Of course it was that way when it won too,
It doesn't only look wide. It is wide and it feels like a wide bike.

I tested one 5 days ago.

I guess that the Cycra plastics makes them a bit slimmer?
mx_phreek 11/16/2016 10:13am
11/16/2016 10:13am
I don't know what the problem is, it's not a one man shootout. I read it and what I got was everyone said it's hard to turn? So you can't expect it win. I dunno the yzf 250 seems to be talked about a like its this mythical bike all singing, all dancing bike all of a sudden lol.
twotwosix
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twotwosix 11/16/2016 10:19am
11/16/2016 10:19am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2016 10:21am
Also, this needs to be said:

Steve Matthes should NEVER comment on how a stock motorcycle is performing. How the hell would he know if the 2017 YZ250F is better than the 2017 KX250F???? Matthes is like 300 pounds and hasn't been able to provide a proper comment on how bike handles in over a decade. Matthes needs to keep his mouth shut on that topic. It's blatantly ignorant. All he can do is pass along other folks opinions.

Preface: Matthes is my favorite moto journalist in our industry and I listen to all his shows, bought his app and read his articles. He is the man.
racer495a
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racer495a 11/16/2016 10:43am
11/16/2016 10:43am
twotwosix wrote:
Also, this needs to be said: Steve Matthes should NEVER comment on how a stock motorcycle is performing. How the hell would he know if the...
Also, this needs to be said:

Steve Matthes should NEVER comment on how a stock motorcycle is performing. How the hell would he know if the 2017 YZ250F is better than the 2017 KX250F???? Matthes is like 300 pounds and hasn't been able to provide a proper comment on how bike handles in over a decade. Matthes needs to keep his mouth shut on that topic. It's blatantly ignorant. All he can do is pass along other folks opinions.

Preface: Matthes is my favorite moto journalist in our industry and I listen to all his shows, bought his app and read his articles. He is the man.
Agreed....why do forward thinkers with a different opinion in this country get slammed and shot down? Everyone is expected to just line up and agree with the established option.

Watch the movie concussion and how the doctor was treated who discovered CTE. Also, take a look at the election...mainstream media wanted to decide for us and talked down to anyone else who had a different opinion.
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Awood 11/16/2016 10:53am
11/16/2016 10:53am
Sounds like they need some DRD radiator lowering kits and engine relocation kits to get that YZ turning how they want it to. :D
STLSharky
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STLSharky 11/16/2016 12:02pm
11/16/2016 12:02pm
TeamPumpin wrote:
Currently listening to Pulp, and that is the question of the night. I, for one totally agree that Michael and his posse of goon riders must...
Currently listening to Pulp, and that is the question of the night. I, for one totally agree that Michael and his posse of goon riders must be tested for narcotics. Yes, I heard him call in and give his so called explanation. But I don't buy it. No one in their right state of mind will put the YZ250F FOURTH. FOURTH?? This is almost worth a protest.
Dude does good reviews and covers pretty much all the info. It's all opinions after that. Give him a break.

They've done the best most thorough tests we've ever seen. It's a tool. Use it.
fordo-197 11/16/2016 1:04pm
11/16/2016 1:04pm
TeamPumpin wrote:
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017...
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017 models, much less all of them, so I'm just following the lead of what they were saying last night on Pulp. There was another test rider (can't recall who it was) that called in last night and echoed what Matthes and Keefer were saying about the Yamaha and how it could be no worse than second place. He mentioned how the vast majority of amateurs and privateers use the YZ250F as their platform to build a race bike because it's the best thing available. I respect ML and his "posse" (no offense, LeBron) for going outside the box of everyone else and giving a different reading on these machines. I just don't see how all the other reviews can have Yamaha ranked so much higher on average.
what other proper tests have been done on the 17 yz250f? I've only see the first impressions but nothing detailed. i thought the vital shootout was first class and really enjoyed reading it.
Motofinne
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Motofinne 11/16/2016 1:09pm
11/16/2016 1:09pm
TeamPumpin wrote:
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017...
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017 models, much less all of them, so I'm just following the lead of what they were saying last night on Pulp. There was another test rider (can't recall who it was) that called in last night and echoed what Matthes and Keefer were saying about the Yamaha and how it could be no worse than second place. He mentioned how the vast majority of amateurs and privateers use the YZ250F as their platform to build a race bike because it's the best thing available. I respect ML and his "posse" (no offense, LeBron) for going outside the box of everyone else and giving a different reading on these machines. I just don't see how all the other reviews can have Yamaha ranked so much higher on average.
fordo-197 wrote:
what other proper tests have been done on the 17 yz250f? I've only see the first impressions but nothing detailed. i thought the vital shootout was...
what other proper tests have been done on the 17 yz250f? I've only see the first impressions but nothing detailed. i thought the vital shootout was first class and really enjoyed reading it.
Not a single test. I think that Dirt Rider(Keefers gang) has done it but they haven't released the results.

What i understand, Vital is the only one with the full 250 shootout at the moment.

Pit Row

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fordo-197 11/16/2016 1:11pm
11/16/2016 1:11pm
TeamPumpin wrote:
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017...
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017 models, much less all of them, so I'm just following the lead of what they were saying last night on Pulp. There was another test rider (can't recall who it was) that called in last night and echoed what Matthes and Keefer were saying about the Yamaha and how it could be no worse than second place. He mentioned how the vast majority of amateurs and privateers use the YZ250F as their platform to build a race bike because it's the best thing available. I respect ML and his "posse" (no offense, LeBron) for going outside the box of everyone else and giving a different reading on these machines. I just don't see how all the other reviews can have Yamaha ranked so much higher on average.
fordo-197 wrote:
what other proper tests have been done on the 17 yz250f? I've only see the first impressions but nothing detailed. i thought the vital shootout was...
what other proper tests have been done on the 17 yz250f? I've only see the first impressions but nothing detailed. i thought the vital shootout was first class and really enjoyed reading it.
Motofinne wrote:
Not a single test. I think that Dirt Rider(Keefers gang) has done it but they haven't released the results. What i understand, Vital is the only...
Not a single test. I think that Dirt Rider(Keefers gang) has done it but they haven't released the results.

What i understand, Vital is the only one with the full 250 shootout at the moment.
thought so
Moto520
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Moto520 11/16/2016 1:48pm
11/16/2016 1:48pm
Nobody wants people to call their baby ugly. With motocross....the best helmet is the helmet you have. The best bike is the bike you have.

It is very hard to get an unbiased opinion on anything with motocross peeps.
731chopper
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731chopper 11/16/2016 2:06pm
11/16/2016 2:06pm
I was a little put off by Keefer and Matthes with this topic on Pulp MX. So Vital ranked the YZ250F 4th, so what? Why do they care so much. I understand Matthes mainly plays the game for entertainment value on the show but sometimes Keefer is too much of a Yamaha homer. When was the last time Matthes rode a bone stock 250f, let alone all of them? He talked about knowing because of what riders and buddies tell him but how many of those people ride bone stock bikes? The shootouts are talking about stock bikes and I'd be willing to bet most people Matthes talks to don't ride stock bikes.

They talked about the Yamaha being second place at worst but Matthes continually rants about the Husky being the same bike as a KTM. So if somebody ranked the KTM first that means the Yamaha is looking at 3rd, not second. And the Kawasaki is a new bike this year. Is it so hard to believe that Kawasaki could create a better 250F than a now several year old Yamaha bike? Of course not.
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Tpog496 11/16/2016 2:17pm
11/16/2016 2:17pm
JW381 wrote:
He's not "high" he just reached a heightened state of consciousness by tapping into his universal matter, channeling his inner star dust lineage. He can also...
He's not "high" he just reached a heightened state of consciousness by tapping into his universal matter, channeling his inner star dust lineage. He can also talk to plants and cats now.

via GIPHY

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TW85
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TW85 11/16/2016 2:36pm
11/16/2016 2:36pm
Lol who really cares? It's just peoples opinion on what they think is better. You guys get way too worked up.

If vitalmx the website is allowed their opinion aren't guys like Keefer and Rich Taylor allowed one too? Pretty sure they've been at it for a while now.
moto0852
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moto0852 11/16/2016 3:44pm
11/16/2016 3:44pm
TW85 wrote:
Lol who really cares? It's just peoples opinion on what they think is better. You guys get way too worked up. If vitalmx the website is...
Lol who really cares? It's just peoples opinion on what they think is better. You guys get way too worked up.

If vitalmx the website is allowed their opinion aren't guys like Keefer and Rich Taylor allowed one too? Pretty sure they've been at it for a while now.
I think that's the problem and why so much backlash at Steve and Keefer. They don't state it as opinion but fact. They talk about there biases and opinions as "fact" and excuse ML's lit pro data and actual lap time info as just "someone who's high" they both need to stop using the word "fact".

It's just opinion.
kiwifan
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kiwifan 11/16/2016 3:58pm
11/16/2016 3:58pm
So lets get this straight, ML and his team are wrong and the Pulpmx team are right? Fact: I would rather believe a shootout that has a unbiased guy running it. The thing I REALLY like about ML is that he is never bias towards any brand, as stated in this thread both Matthes and Keefer have strong Yamaha ties.


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kiwifan 11/16/2016 3:59pm
11/16/2016 3:59pm
moto0852 wrote:
I think that's the problem and why so much backlash at Steve and Keefer. They don't state it as opinion but fact. They talk about there...
I think that's the problem and why so much backlash at Steve and Keefer. They don't state it as opinion but fact. They talk about there biases and opinions as "fact" and excuse ML's lit pro data and actual lap time info as just "someone who's high" they both need to stop using the word "fact".

It's just opinion.
Well said...
BobPA
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BobPA 11/16/2016 4:06pm
11/16/2016 4:06pm
TeamPumpin wrote:
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017...
For the record, I think all these guys are great and I'm sure all these bikes are great. Obviously, I haven't ridden any of these 2017 models, much less all of them, so I'm just following the lead of what they were saying last night on Pulp. There was another test rider (can't recall who it was) that called in last night and echoed what Matthes and Keefer were saying about the Yamaha and how it could be no worse than second place. He mentioned how the vast majority of amateurs and privateers use the YZ250F as their platform to build a race bike because it's the best thing available. I respect ML and his "posse" (no offense, LeBron) for going outside the box of everyone else and giving a different reading on these machines. I just don't see how all the other reviews can have Yamaha ranked so much higher on average.
You come off as being one of the Trump protesters who are stomping their feet and crying because their guy (girl) did not win.
TW85
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TW85 11/16/2016 4:27pm
11/16/2016 4:27pm
moto0852 wrote:
I think that's the problem and why so much backlash at Steve and Keefer. They don't state it as opinion but fact. They talk about there...
I think that's the problem and why so much backlash at Steve and Keefer. They don't state it as opinion but fact. They talk about there biases and opinions as "fact" and excuse ML's lit pro data and actual lap time info as just "someone who's high" they both need to stop using the word "fact".

It's just opinion.
I don't know man. Keefer said a few times everyone is free to their own opinion...he did strongly disagree with it though lol. He's pretty open about loving Yamaha but the guy generally seems like he tells it how he sees it.

Anyways carry on. I'm not buying a bike this year so I don't really care either way about the shootouts. Just thought it was odd how most posters in here were arguing the one side that vital was right and the guys on pulp had no clue when it's strictly opinion for the most part. I hear what your saying though.
TW85
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TW85 11/16/2016 4:31pm
11/16/2016 4:31pm
To carry on from my last post. Does the litpro data really matter on a bike not set up specifically for that one person? I'm thinking that's something more important once you have a bike and start working on dialing it in. Not finding what you like and dislike about a bike off the showroom floor.

Genuine question. I'm just curious.
njracer46
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njracer46 11/16/2016 5:10pm
11/16/2016 5:10pm
Brand loyalty will make you blind
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