grid start for SX (only)

Starcrossed
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Starcrossed 12/16/2015 5:34am
12/16/2015 5:34am
Although the argument is compelling, I'm not in favor of eliminating the gate drop for a grid start, nor am I in favor of inverting the field. The current single moto format precludes inverting the field, and it doesn't equate to pure racing. Would it be done AX/lottery style? How about a modified "V" shaped gate giving the riders with the preferred gate picks a couple of feet advantage when the gate drops...each gate could be one foot behind/in front of its closest neighbor. Just a thought. Personally, I wouldn't make any changes to the qualifying and starting format, unless it were to involve making SX a two day event with longer heat races and twin mains, maybe with a 125 amateur race as an opening or intermission segment.
KMC440
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KMC440 12/16/2015 5:51am
12/16/2015 5:51am
Nobody's said it yet. ..... ?
Ok I'll be the one ...

SHARKS WITH FREAKIN LASERS ON THEIR HEADS!!!

i feel better already ...
JamesOliver 12/16/2015 7:27am
12/16/2015 7:27am
51xc wrote:
i like the idea. more often than not the race will be won by a top 5 qualifier anyways. it also could allow for different track...
i like the idea. more often than not the race will be won by a top 5 qualifier anyways. it also could allow for different track designs and would be overall a saver start. it's true that the starting system we have now gives more excitement in the early laps but with a grid style start this could make for better racing over the entire 20 laps.
In that case you may as well just leave the top 5 qualifiers in the race, i.e. the front row, and send everyone else home for an early bath.
aFACEdismembered 12/16/2015 7:59am
12/16/2015 7:59am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2015 8:03am
I've always wished they would do a 2 row start like Arenacross, but 11 wide. It would add more floor space for tracks, allowing for an extra lane in certain stadiums.

Top 4 from the heats and 1st in both semis get front row. Next fastest rider gets option for 11th gate pick or second row. Fill in the rest after that.

It would also help with first turn carnage and help keep all of the "fast guys" up at the front from the start.

Really, only the riders on the outside of the rear row would be at a disadvantage (like being on the outside of a 20 rider gate). How many times have we seen a guy get a good start, cook the turn, push everyone wide and someone behind him gets the holeshot? The back row guys would still have a chance.

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Motodave15
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Motodave15 12/16/2015 8:21am
12/16/2015 8:21am
Im totally onboard for a grid start.

Every damn race im hoping (the top dawgs) all get out up front.. but nope here comes a few other strong riders blasting to the front.. who will fade unless the stars align. Now im stuck as a fan watching him get held up by a few racers because they're riding a wide bike (because they know theyre slower)... and the leader inches away then hes lightyears ahead of the guy whos come from say 7th to 3rd or 2nd...annnndddd the race is over.

On the podium, i get a "If i can get a better start speech"

I say drop the timed qualifying...for qualifyers Run races and make a gate of 10 in front 10 in rear (based on last years season ending points for the 1st round only, then the previous race for rounds 2 to the last one).. based on your qualifying position to make the night show will determine your grid start location (for heats only) then every successive race etc will have the spots placed accordingly.

Fans get more racing and a higher quality of racing and less excuses
SPYGUY
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SPYGUY 12/16/2015 9:03am
12/16/2015 9:03am
I've had similar thoughts about getting all of the top riders together and eliminate the chances of a top contender being mired in the back of the pack, although my way keeps them behind a starting gate.

Here are some of my previous comments on the issue...

SPYGUY wrote:
In my opinion, the powers that be went the wrong direction when they upped it to 22 rider main events in the 450 class.

SX needs all of the heavy hitters up front at the start and less of, for lack of a better term, the "also rans" getting in the way, playing block, while the leaders get away.

I think something like a "B-Main" should actually be considered. Guys like Chisholm and Albertson would gain a lot more exposure battling for the win in the B-Main than they ever will duking it out for 15th in the current format.

SX is already a show. Why not try to make it a better one?


SPYGUY wrote:
If Eli Tomac gets a bad start now, he will never see the leaders because he has to spend a few laps getting through guys like Kyle Chisholm, Jimmy Albertson and Nick Schmidt.

If the main events were only had, say, 12 riders, Tomac's "bad start" wouldn't be quite so bad and there's a better chance he'd be up front with the rest of the race win contenders.

Obviously there are going to be years when a McGrath or a Carmichael dominate the rest of the field which will lead to boring races but in the other years where the competition is closer (like it is presently), it would increase the chances of the racing being better each week.
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kaptkaos 12/16/2015 9:29am
12/16/2015 9:29am
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of qualifying for a gate pick and a single super short 20 min main. I would say make the mains 30+2 and leave the start alone, or lets go with a V Grid, like a formation of Geese. Make qualifying really mean something for the entire field all the way back.

I say scrap the whole format. Go back to 2 qualifiers and a LCQ. Then do a 30+ 2 main or two 20 lap mains. Give every rider a drop in the series and we will have a great championship battle. The way it is right now, once a rider crashes out once, he is essentially eliminated from the championship unless his name is Villopoto. IMO a single 20 min main just doesnt do the event justice. They truck in all that dirt, market the hell out of the race, just for a single 20 min main?? Cut out some of the fluff and do 2 points paying mains for the same price as one. With a 20 min main we can hardly ever see any real battles or comebacks. It just goes by in the blink of an eye and not much really develops, its an all out sprint and usually ends up in chaos, catastrophe for many, and a runaway for the leader.

It really sucks that the field is decimated so often and the championship is usually decided or near decided with several races to go or is 2 man race rather than a 5-6 man race.
Silliker269
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Silliker269 12/16/2015 9:31am
12/16/2015 9:31am
Even two 15 lappers, to much depends on one start
mxer512
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mxer512 12/16/2015 9:52am
12/16/2015 9:52am
kaptkaos wrote:
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of...
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of qualifying for a gate pick and a single super short 20 min main. I would say make the mains 30+2 and leave the start alone, or lets go with a V Grid, like a formation of Geese. Make qualifying really mean something for the entire field all the way back.

I say scrap the whole format. Go back to 2 qualifiers and a LCQ. Then do a 30+ 2 main or two 20 lap mains. Give every rider a drop in the series and we will have a great championship battle. The way it is right now, once a rider crashes out once, he is essentially eliminated from the championship unless his name is Villopoto. IMO a single 20 min main just doesnt do the event justice. They truck in all that dirt, market the hell out of the race, just for a single 20 min main?? Cut out some of the fluff and do 2 points paying mains for the same price as one. With a 20 min main we can hardly ever see any real battles or comebacks. It just goes by in the blink of an eye and not much really develops, its an all out sprint and usually ends up in chaos, catastrophe for many, and a runaway for the leader.

It really sucks that the field is decimated so often and the championship is usually decided or near decided with several races to go or is 2 man race rather than a 5-6 man race.
I agree with this. let them go back to two qualifiers., and an lcq. Have a throwaway in the series. I think this would tighten up the championship.
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 12/16/2015 12:09pm
12/16/2015 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 12/16/2015 12:11pm
There is a reason other motorsports do a grid start and it has to do with facility space. A typical road course has the main grandstand start/ finish and there is no room to line up 25-30 cars side by side. I would assume they would also think it is too dangerous?

The start gate is an iconic part of our sport. Any uneducated spectator can see that everyone has a relatively fair shot (I am not a fan of gate pick by qualifying and would prefer a lottery) and the danger factor of 22 riders into 1 corner creates action unmatched in other motorsports.

What would likely happen with a grid start is what happens in most motorsports, no passing as the fast guys just leave the rest behind. (Why do you think yellow flags are used so much to turn it back into a race?)


I would be on board with 2-3 throw away's to keep the series close. Fans would rather see rider's go for it than lay back and be safe. Injuries happen and this might allow for some recovery time.
ktm212
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ktm212 12/16/2015 12:38pm
12/16/2015 12:38pm Edited Date/Time 12/16/2015 12:40pm
NOPE, one more thing to pussify our sport, might as well play baseball. come on guys, most of us here race and the start is part of being a good racer. Racers thrive on the rush of the start, the card going sideways and holding it wide open into the first turn. The fact that anyone can get a good start is part of our sport. Road racing is fucking boring. the fastest guys play games, theyre always up front, and the points and finishes are never much different. Being a great starter is about having good technique and is a talent just like railing a corner or quadding a rhythm section. If you mess up your start, just like you mess up a rhythm section, there are consequences and you get your doors blown off or some guy jumping over your head. Privateers like ronnie stewart have gotten top 3 starts from the outside, on a stock bike and have gotten their sponsors some recognition. take away the start and you might as well just make nascar and just have it be factory teams. starts add adversity, and another level of difficulty to our sport. why bother taking it away? let em race. Although I would be in favor of a throw away or even just a shorter series, 17 rounds of supercross stacked on top of 12 outdoors, MEC, MXDN, Straight rhythm, these guys never get a chance to heal or recooperate or anything. plus the titles are usually decided with 3 rounds to go anyways.
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gt80rider 12/16/2015 1:02pm
12/16/2015 1:02pm
GuyB wrote:
Now if you were talking about inverting the field... Wink
That is what I would like to see, make the fast guys work through the pack.
h&m_cycle
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h&m_cycle 12/16/2015 1:09pm
12/16/2015 1:09pm Edited Date/Time 12/16/2015 1:12pm
KTMShane699 wrote:
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage...
So the fastest riders can't get a good start on their own against the slower riders? And the slower qualified riders already start at a disadvantage?

And we don't get to see the fastest riders come through the pack?

Sounds like a great idea.

Shane
Lapped riders are not the pack... How about if you get lapped twice in any race... black flag...

Make all the tracks easier... if you want tight racing... if you got a sport where most everyone can't do everything and

you're calling yourself a pro you got a problem... Same with outdoors... If you're a pro & can't even jump "the leap"

"450" "Red Bud" why are you there?
MR. X
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MR. X 12/16/2015 2:18pm
12/16/2015 2:18pm
Can't we just give everybody the same amount of points regardless of where they finish and at the end ,everyone gets a trophy for participation. The only thing that should possibly change would be the equipment ,even that is questionable.
brimx153
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brimx153 12/16/2015 3:17pm
12/16/2015 3:17pm
i love the fact people are saying it would nt work because the top guy s would just gap everyone , well that s the bloody point .(instead of 2 guy s breaking away while the others get bad starts ) do you think since the top 7 or 10 best riders who are all within a few tenths of each other are are somehow not going to be passing each other like mad for 20 laps . do people think they ll stay in single file or something . or people who think its unfair to the 722 type guys , well he has as much chance to win the race as every other guy (same in every other motorsport) all he has to do is qualify well and go out and win the race . end of the day the top 10 in 450 sx nowadys could all win and the next 5 are very quick too. by having them all together off the start the field should stay closer imo. its when you have guys that get starts that are a bit off the pace , hold up the quicker guys who get bad starts ,for a lap or two .then next thing there is huge gap .i just get fed up every race ,ie its either tomac will get a good start dunge will get a bad one or vice a versa . they finish 1 ,2 in the championship . and they could go the whole year only meeting on the track twice over the season. why not make it so we get them meeting (more than lightly 17 rounds battling ) then for good measure add 8 other riders that could win a race straight up .i just dont see the down side of guaranteeing having the top fastest rider of that day battling together from lap one . not if the star s all aline and they all get good starts , (never ever ever happens )
Indy mxer
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Indy mxer 12/16/2015 4:17pm
12/16/2015 4:17pm
kaptkaos wrote:
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of...
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of qualifying for a gate pick and a single super short 20 min main. I would say make the mains 30+2 and leave the start alone, or lets go with a V Grid, like a formation of Geese. Make qualifying really mean something for the entire field all the way back.

I say scrap the whole format. Go back to 2 qualifiers and a LCQ. Then do a 30+ 2 main or two 20 lap mains. Give every rider a drop in the series and we will have a great championship battle. The way it is right now, once a rider crashes out once, he is essentially eliminated from the championship unless his name is Villopoto. IMO a single 20 min main just doesnt do the event justice. They truck in all that dirt, market the hell out of the race, just for a single 20 min main?? Cut out some of the fluff and do 2 points paying mains for the same price as one. With a 20 min main we can hardly ever see any real battles or comebacks. It just goes by in the blink of an eye and not much really develops, its an all out sprint and usually ends up in chaos, catastrophe for many, and a runaway for the leader.

It really sucks that the field is decimated so often and the championship is usually decided or near decided with several races to go or is 2 man race rather than a 5-6 man race.
very well said.
Green Plague
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Green Plague 12/16/2015 4:42pm
12/16/2015 4:42pm
Keep it the way it's been since 1974....just saying
Chris_Cooksey 12/16/2015 5:05pm
12/16/2015 5:05pm
early wrote:
Not as bad of an idea as most will claim it is...imho. But make it 6,6,6,4 that way the podium of both heats gets on the...
Not as bad of an idea as most will claim it is...imho. But make it 6,6,6,4 that way the podium of both heats gets on the front row. This could also possibly open up more floor space for actual track.
I agree, would love this idea.

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h&m_cycle
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h&m_cycle 12/16/2015 5:27pm
12/16/2015 5:27pm
GuyB wrote:
Now if you were talking about inverting the field... Wink
Sully wrote:
...you'd send RJ into another epic rant.
Not if you had two mains... invert the second... ahh it would be worth watching... never work...
Zracer
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Zracer 12/16/2015 6:06pm
12/16/2015 6:06pm
Its odd that so many that profess a love for racing, have such little understanding of what it actually is. The gate drop is part of the race. Dont compare a 15 minute SX main to a 3 hour road race,either. That just sounds stupid.
early
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early 12/16/2015 7:50pm
12/16/2015 7:50pm
Zracer wrote:
Its odd that so many that profess a love for racing, have such little understanding of what it actually is. The gate drop is part of...
Its odd that so many that profess a love for racing, have such little understanding of what it actually is. The gate drop is part of the race. Dont compare a 15 minute SX main to a 3 hour road race,either. That just sounds stupid.
I think most of the people talking about changing some aspects of Supercross can see it for what it is; a made for tv entertainment event. Most agree that the outdoors should not be touched (unless they want to go to 40+2 or more natural track surfaces) because that is the roots of the sport. But, Supercross is NOT a natural extension of friend and family weekend motorcycle enjoyment.

This idea promotes competition, it doesnt fall back on some gimmick like a joker lane or inverted start.

Whatever changes may or may not be coming i hope it involves more high stakes racing and less low stakes qualifying or crummy gimmicks.
GeorgiePorgie 12/16/2015 8:50pm
12/16/2015 8:50pm
GuyB wrote:
Now if you were talking about inverting the field... Wink
Yep. All day. Or Most points gets last gate pick.
mx510
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mx510 12/16/2015 9:14pm
12/16/2015 9:14pm
bob567 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the format - leave it alone.
Ironically, when I finished reading your post I pictured you as your avatar. lol
mx510
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mx510 12/16/2015 9:15pm
12/16/2015 9:15pm
I think this would be a cool idea to see at the Monster cup. If it works for a couple years with no real hiccups give it a shot at a few SXs. Maybe a grid style triple crown or something.
shortcourse
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shortcourse 12/16/2015 9:27pm
12/16/2015 9:27pm
All men or ladies are equal on a drop gate.......did you ever start on a bungey with 40 plus other riders?
mark_swart
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mark_swart 12/16/2015 9:42pm
12/16/2015 9:42pm
One of the best parts of moto is that the way we start, everyone has a shot. Maybe a longshot, but a shot nonetheless.

A grid wouldn't lead to better racing. It would lead to runaways. The top five guys would start in the same spots every week for 17 weeks in a row. Super boring.

Not to mention starting is part of the skill it takes to be the best - the gate start is the trademark of our sport. I'm sorry for the other guys that Dungey starts in the top 3-4 every week, but that isn't an accident. If he manages to do it consistently, that means that it can be done. So instead of being disappointed at the format not letting all of the other contenders get great starts every week, maybe you should be disappointed at the contenders for not putting it together.

Pull up some vid of those races that were red-flagged and restarted in a grid. How exciting were those starts?

Better still, pull up some vid of Stewart or RV coming through the pack and then let's talk about good racing!
kaptkaos
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kaptkaos 12/17/2015 8:50am
12/17/2015 8:50am
People who are saying a gate drop allows everyone to have a chance to win is flawed thinking. First, if this is the mindset, then why qualify at all? A whole day and 2 hours of the night program are purely "for show"? The whole point of qualifying is to see who is the fastest rider that given day. As long as we have qualifiers, there needs to be a reward for it, whether its points or a substantial starting advantage. When has a backmarker who got a holeshot EVER won a pro race??? All they do is get in the way and prevent the top guys from battling or they cause crashes and injuries. If a privateer wants to have a better shot at getting a holeshot, then he should qualify better, period. I would rather see Dungey, Canard,Tomac and Roczen ride away from the pack and have a true epic battle for the entire main than watch people struggling to get around Alessi or Nicolletti and then run out of time to catch the leader. Nothing against Alessi or Phil, but when they can qualify better and MOVE FORWARD rather than BACKWARDS in the field then its a different story. Gatedrop works in outdoors, theres time for races to develop and people to make up ground.

I think MX/SX has the poorest qualifying/scoring rules of all motorsports. That being said, I still love the purity of the sport and its my favorite of all followed by F1.

Anything contrived, such as inverted starts, or points reset (chase) is total crap and has no place in motorsports. Rather than the Chase, do the drop and things will get interesting.
JerseyFresh
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JerseyFresh 12/17/2015 8:55am
12/17/2015 8:55am Edited Date/Time 12/17/2015 8:58am
This shit drives me nuts. Like, I love Matthes but whenever he talks about this on Pulp I wanna go off. OK, so if we start changing the sport dramatically like that, then it's not SX anymore. If you put a time limit on Baseball then it's not fucking baseball anymore. If you had 2 baskets at each end of the court then you're not playing basketball anymore....If you you have a grid start, or a joker lane, or whatever then you're creating a circus act. It's not real anymore. You've made it something else. It makes the sport look ridiculous as well. Joker Lane, sounds so Pro....edit I'll throw the retarded "Chase" idea in there as well. Then you're manufacturing, it's false excitement. It's fake to me.
Starcrossed
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Starcrossed 12/17/2015 9:37am
12/17/2015 9:37am
kaptkaos wrote:
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of...
I like the idea. SX has gotten very boring IMHO, I much prefer the outdoors. I really think the whole event is lame. 2 hours of qualifying for a gate pick and a single super short 20 min main. I would say make the mains 30+2 and leave the start alone, or lets go with a V Grid, like a formation of Geese. Make qualifying really mean something for the entire field all the way back.

I say scrap the whole format. Go back to 2 qualifiers and a LCQ. Then do a 30+ 2 main or two 20 lap mains. Give every rider a drop in the series and we will have a great championship battle. The way it is right now, once a rider crashes out once, he is essentially eliminated from the championship unless his name is Villopoto. IMO a single 20 min main just doesnt do the event justice. They truck in all that dirt, market the hell out of the race, just for a single 20 min main?? Cut out some of the fluff and do 2 points paying mains for the same price as one. With a 20 min main we can hardly ever see any real battles or comebacks. It just goes by in the blink of an eye and not much really develops, its an all out sprint and usually ends up in chaos, catastrophe for many, and a runaway for the leader.

It really sucks that the field is decimated so often and the championship is usually decided or near decided with several races to go or is 2 man race rather than a 5-6 man race.
Indy mxer wrote:
very well said.
I agree with many of the points in this post also, but wonder if more track time will result in a higher number of injuries. If the amount of laps, or length of the mains was doubled, or if there were two mains, would we see twice as many injuries? Feld has to put on a show which might suffer over a long season if many of the main characters were sidelined with injuries. The entry lists for the tail end of the schedule often exclude some of the sports biggest names because they are hurt and want to be in the best possible shape to begin the MX season. Many seasons turn into a battle of attrition, which might be magnified if the track time were to increase substantially. I'd like to see more racing, but as an east coast resident, the field is already watered down enough by the time the series gets to my area.
JerseyFresh
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JerseyFresh 12/17/2015 11:33am
12/17/2015 11:33am
I will however agree that SX - while I wouldn't use the term boring - is not as exciting to me as Outdoors. Having said that, this isn't something that has changed for me over the years, it just is what it is. I can dig on the the 2 moto format though, then we're making changes for the better. We're bringing it even more back to the moto roots.

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