David Pingree on air forks

Rich Piano
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Los Angeles, CA, USA
11/15/2015 2:17pm
Most dont even set rear sag let alone have their forks dialed. I just dont care for the constant maintainance. Especially in our winter months.
Unless the setting are really bad 95% of people dont know good from bad.
hellion
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Westfield, MA, USA
11/15/2015 2:43pm
For those who are arguing that air forks can be set up to work well, you're missing the point.

Very few people will be willing to check numerous air pressures each time they ride. Growing up on four strokes, many kids these days don't know how to work on their bikes at all. So checking air pressure is just one more thing on the list that they won't do. A whole bunch of people I see riding don't even know hod to set sag, probably never check tire pressure until it feels weird, and never even bleed air buildup from their spring forks.

To save fifty or a hundred bucks? I could think of a few other ways to save a lot more than that.....
MXD
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11/15/2015 2:47pm Edited Date/Time 11/15/2015 2:49pm
I set my pressures in the morning and don't even check them throughout the day. I've never noticed it drift to the point where it effects performance. Topping off the chambers in the morning takes a few minutes at most.

Sure, I'd prefer to never have to touch them but it's not a big enough hassle for me to invest in spring forks. Once you get used to it, it's no big deal at all.
Lightning78
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Huntington Beach, CA, USA
11/15/2015 2:51pm
MXD wrote:
I set my pressures in the morning and don't even check them throughout the day. I've never noticed it drift to the point where it effects...
I set my pressures in the morning and don't even check them throughout the day. I've never noticed it drift to the point where it effects performance. Topping off the chambers in the morning takes a few minutes at most.

Sure, I'd prefer to never have to touch them but it's not a big enough hassle for me to invest in spring forks. Once you get used to it, it's no big deal at all.
Yes and you're one of the very few that would actually do that what the poster above you and what ping is getting too and a lot of others are that I would say at least 90% of people probably won't check it or hate checking it. I would be one of the people that always check it I always believe my spring forks however I can tell you without a doubt it would get very old especially if I was in a hurry to get writing and had to check my air pressure God for bid I forget my air pump the day I go riding or racing something as simple as forgetting that is debilitating if your forks are up to snuff or for some reason missing a good amount of air in one of the 50,000 Chambers ha ha

The Shop

11/15/2015 3:28pm
MXD wrote:
I set my pressures in the morning and don't even check them throughout the day. I've never noticed it drift to the point where it effects...
I set my pressures in the morning and don't even check them throughout the day. I've never noticed it drift to the point where it effects performance. Topping off the chambers in the morning takes a few minutes at most.

Sure, I'd prefer to never have to touch them but it's not a big enough hassle for me to invest in spring forks. Once you get used to it, it's no big deal at all.
Yes and you're one of the very few that would actually do that what the poster above you and what ping is getting too and a...
Yes and you're one of the very few that would actually do that what the poster above you and what ping is getting too and a lot of others are that I would say at least 90% of people probably won't check it or hate checking it. I would be one of the people that always check it I always believe my spring forks however I can tell you without a doubt it would get very old especially if I was in a hurry to get writing and had to check my air pressure God for bid I forget my air pump the day I go riding or racing something as simple as forgetting that is debilitating if your forks are up to snuff or for some reason missing a good amount of air in one of the 50,000 Chambers ha ha
True, but good thing there's a thousand more people at the track that didn't forget they're pumps.. Also a good thing the pressure rarely drops more than a couple psi over a long period of time without use. My bike can sit for two months and the psi will drop from 35 to 33, that's all.

As for the ones that don't check and set they're pressure, then they get what they deserve... Less than ideal performance, just as those that don't check and change the oil in their bikes get crappy performing engines eventually.
Air forks certainly ain't keeping anyone from winning becuz the bottom line is love em or hate em, they ARE good enough to alow riders to win races.
We as Motocrossers are a very picky and finicky bunch when it comes to our bikes.
TeamGreen
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11/15/2015 4:19pm
I take my pump to the track. It allows me to run different "spring rates" for different/changing track conditions. I even take a flat blade screw driver. It allows me to do the same thing.

It doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. On the other hand, I've even gone as far as adjusting my handlebars at the track. That takes a 10mm & an 8mm.

Wow, if you add chain adjustment...rear spring...spokes...sprocket bolts...

Heck, you might actually need a tool box.
h&m_cycle
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Steubenville, OH, USA
11/15/2015 4:32pm
Mit12 wrote:
RV seemed to do just fine with air forks.
Yeah, I heard he won last week... Did those Oxygen Forks cause the ass wheelie?

Yeah, that's what did him in... rebound right on his ass... Laughing
tempura
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JP
11/15/2015 5:24pm
I'll stick with what works, and that's springs.
Just remember, the manufactures didn't bring these into production because of increased performance or ease of use for the masses. It was simply a cost saving with the added bonus of shedding weight. Most that are in or have connections to the business side of moto will almost always defend these decisions. It puts food on their table, rocking the boat doesn't.
Superdave19
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Spring, TX, USA
11/15/2015 6:35pm
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty dang good. Our local tracks don't get knArLy rough down here, but luckily I found peace with them.

I'm running 163 inner/10 outer/166 balance.
TeamGreen
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11/15/2015 6:49pm
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty...
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty dang good. Our local tracks don't get knArLy rough down here, but luckily I found peace with them.

I'm running 163 inner/10 outer/166 balance.
Which chamber do you do most of your tuning with?
Jrewing
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11/15/2015 6:51pm
air forks suck- that's based on psf-2. Anyone that tells you different is bonkers.
I could go on for ages about the kybs
Superdave19
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11/15/2015 7:11pm
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty...
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty dang good. Our local tracks don't get knArLy rough down here, but luckily I found peace with them.

I'm running 163 inner/10 outer/166 balance.
TeamGreen wrote:
Which chamber do you do most of your tuning with?
If anything I tweak the balance chamber. Before I adjust pressures, I'll first tune w/ the clickers. You can certainly get lost in the adjustments/pressures, so be sure to take notes
TeamGreen
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11/15/2015 7:18pm
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty...
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty dang good. Our local tracks don't get knArLy rough down here, but luckily I found peace with them.

I'm running 163 inner/10 outer/166 balance.
TeamGreen wrote:
Which chamber do you do most of your tuning with?
If anything I tweak the balance chamber. Before I adjust pressures, I'll first tune w/ the clickers. You can certainly get lost in the adjustments/pressures, so...
If anything I tweak the balance chamber. Before I adjust pressures, I'll first tune w/ the clickers. You can certainly get lost in the adjustments/pressures, so be sure to take notes
That's what I was expecting when I saw that you were runnig 10 psi
keith101
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11/15/2015 8:02pm
Jrewing wrote:
air forks suck- that's based on psf-2. Anyone that tells you different is bonkers.
I could go on for ages about the kybs
last I checked, showa and wp also make air forks. They must suck too since you and Ping-A-Ding say so.

Thanks. Now I can avoid these nasty air contraptions.
keith101
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11/15/2015 8:04pm
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty...
Im on a 15' RM-Z450.. Vet A/B.. Very hard for me to find a good setting stock, but got them re-valved, and now they're actually pretty dang good. Our local tracks don't get knArLy rough down here, but luckily I found peace with them.

I'm running 163 inner/10 outer/166 balance.
Try getting closer to zero for the outer and you'll start to feel improvement. Use compression to take the place of outer air pressure and dial as needed.

Ping says they suck, so they must.
user760a
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Shelby, NC, USA
11/15/2015 8:08pm
I have said this before on this forum (and meant it)

I will never, ever buy a bike with air forks. I am not interested in the BS involved in constantly checking air pressure. I am not interested in having the front of my bike droop down through its travel mid race becauzse of a blown seal. To me, it is an idiotic way to save two pounds.

Today I bought another older Kawasaki 450 with spring forks- a pretty decent 2010 model. I did not do this because I cannot afford a new bike. my bike slush fund is very healthy. I just bought a new streetbike, I blow money on bikes 24/7... I bought the old kawasaki because I love the KX450F but am not getting on the air fork bandwagon. ever. I will go blue or orange if I cannot find any more decent used KX450F's in the future.

dear kawasaki: do you think there may be a reason that the air fork KX450F's are New on ebay for $5999 and still few people are buying them. screw those stupid air forks.
keith101
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11/15/2015 8:18pm
user760a wrote:
I have said this before on this forum (and meant it) I will never, ever buy a bike with air forks. I am not interested in...
I have said this before on this forum (and meant it)

I will never, ever buy a bike with air forks. I am not interested in the BS involved in constantly checking air pressure. I am not interested in having the front of my bike droop down through its travel mid race becauzse of a blown seal. To me, it is an idiotic way to save two pounds.

Today I bought another older Kawasaki 450 with spring forks- a pretty decent 2010 model. I did not do this because I cannot afford a new bike. my bike slush fund is very healthy. I just bought a new streetbike, I blow money on bikes 24/7... I bought the old kawasaki because I love the KX450F but am not getting on the air fork bandwagon. ever. I will go blue or orange if I cannot find any more decent used KX450F's in the future.

dear kawasaki: do you think there may be a reason that the air fork KX450F's are New on ebay for $5999 and still few people are buying them. screw those stupid air forks.
You should try to be more specific when complaining/bitching. Depends on the brand, son.

"(6) If you blow a fork seal, the fork will not go flat because the main air pressure is held in the inner chamber, not the outer chamber."

http://motocrossactionmag.com/home-page/super-tech-the-differences-in-f…


11/15/2015 8:32pm Edited Date/Time 11/15/2015 8:38pm
I bought my '15 KX450f this past August, and have put 16 hours on the bike since then. For reference, I am 190lbs naked, 6'1", and am a C class rider that can jump everything.

My very first day on the bike I adjusted my forks to the factory setting of (145psi Inner / 7.5psi Outer / 131psi Balance) and the fork tubes 5mm from the flush in the clamps. What i failed to do is adjust the fork pressures with the front end off the ground. This left my forks compressed about 1 inch at rest. In this configuration, the fork felt very soft, the front end was very low, and the bike was very twitchy and knifed in the corners. You can see the fork partially compressed in the following picture. The upper fork leg should be about even with the top of the fork guard with no weight on it.



Even after setting the factory recommended pressures properly with the front wheel off the ground, it felt way too soft.

Over time, i decided to play around with the settings, and tried Team Green's recommended settings. (page 21 here: http://issuu.com/541marketing/docs/2015_teamgreennews ) For my weight, TG recommends (174psi Inner / 7.2 Outer / 174 Balance) and Rebound 12 clicks out, Compression 6-12 clicks out. I started with 6 clicks out on the compression. This setting definitely felt better, but it felt like the front end wasn't getting enough traction and was beating me up over the small chop, making me lose confidence and forcing me to tip toe through corners. I then decided to jump to the other end of the compression spectrum and try 12 clicks out. The front end definitely felt better in corners and over small chop, but now i was bottoming on some of the larger jumps at Pala. My wrists didnt like that.

After further testing, and with help of the SFF Air app, I decided to utilize less inner pressure and more outer pressure. You see, outer pressure effects the linearity of the spring force. More outer pressure allows for a more ramped spring pressure. Right now I've found a happy setting of (155psi Inner / 13psi Outer / 165psi Balance), Rebound 12 clicks out, and compression 8 clicks out (compression varies a few clicks each way depending on the track). I've found that running a higher Balance pressure than the inner pressure allows the suspension to initiate the stroke more easily, allowing it to soak up the chop a bit better and not chatter in the corners. This has been my happy medium setting to handle most tracks in SoCal, with minor adjustments here and there.

I have to agree with Pingree that these forks perform well in a certain area with the trade-off of performing poorly on the opposite end. It seems like i can tune the fork for great traction and to handle small chop well, but it does not handle larger hits the best in that configuration. And vice versa the other way.

What I do like is that I'm able to soften up the spring a little on tracks where the jumps are not as big, which allows my front end to bite harder. On bigger tracks, i can stiffen it up a little to handle larger hits. Having said this, i think a lot of guys play way too much with the spring pressures and forget about the clicker settings. I don't sway too much on the pressures unless i find myself bottoming a lot, then i'll add a small amount of inner (maybe 5 psi) and outer (maybe .5psi) pressure.

What i don't like is the stiction these forks have at the topped out position and the first inch or so of travel. Seems to be a problem with the seals from what i read on Thumpertalk and from talking to various people.

I don't understand what the big deal is with checking pressures every ride. I don't find it a problem. It's an additional 3 minutes of pre-ride bike prep to do, and it's become part of my routine after I unload the bike at the track. No big deal.

That all having been said, I have a steelie YZ250 back east (need to get that over here) with full RaceTech suspension that handles beautifully, and i've heard great things about these forks when they are revalved. So soon i'll be contacting them for a revalve on my Kx450.
11/15/2015 9:37pm Edited Date/Time 11/15/2015 9:47pm
@theycallmeebryan. You should service your forks, or at least the 'spring' side. Greasing the seal that separates the balance and inner chamber, and replacing the fluid with a decent brand of fork oil, really sorts the problem out. My seal looked quite dry when I took my forks apart for a service. Unfortunately it seems the '15 requires this done due to the stiction. I believe for '16 it is far less noticeable due to a new seal design. Fortunately, servicing the forks is very easy as they are simple. There is quite a bit of info on servicing TAC forks on the Infininet.

Before the service, the initial 1 - 3 inches of travel was extremely 'jerky' and demonstrated very high static friction on both rebound and compression directions of travel. When you remove the inner cartridge of the air side fork, you will see that literally all the stiction is from the seal inside.

After the service, the forks had almost zero stiction, and it has pretty much stayed like this after around 8 hrs of riding with very little change in stiction. There is a video on You Tube from MX-Tech Inc showing their TAC to spring conversion kit and how little stiction there is with their product. They then challenge you to try the same with your air forks, implying you can't achieve what they have. Well after the service, your forks will behave exactly how theirs do. TAC Spring conversion

I also believe the valving for the '16 is much improved over the '15. Has anybody got an opinion on the matter? I'm wanting to gauge whether a revalve to the '16 valving would be worth my time, or if I should just get the forks revalved professionally.



GouldRacing25
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INLAND EMPIRE, CA, USA
11/15/2015 11:44pm
This is how I fixed my new 2015 KX450F AIR FORKS.....

Its called SSS!!! Right off my 15 YZ250F.
mx510
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Gig Harbor, WA, USA
11/15/2015 11:56pm
I bought a 2015 KX450f back in August and I really don't see why people dislike them so much. I am a Vet B rider and it's really not that big of a deal to check the air pressure. Once I got them valved and set up (which I have done on every bike I have had since 2002) they work great. It literally takes 5 minutes.
Jrewing
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11/16/2015 2:17am
Jrewing wrote:
air forks suck- that's based on psf-2. Anyone that tells you different is bonkers.
I could go on for ages about the kybs
keith101 wrote:
last I checked, showa and wp also make air forks. They must suck too since you and Ping-A-Ding say so. Thanks. Now I can avoid these...
last I checked, showa and wp also make air forks. They must suck too since you and Ping-A-Ding say so.

Thanks. Now I can avoid these nasty air contraptions.
Listen Keef010... I put cone valves on as my replacement to the psf-2 junk. The difference is night and day over rough tracks. You'd know tho cause you win internets!
HenryA
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Stockholm, SE
11/16/2015 3:41am
This is how I fixed my new 2015 KX450F AIR FORKS..... [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/11/15/111489/s1200_IMG_4907.jpg[/img] Its called SSS!!! Right off my 15 YZ250F.
This is how I fixed my new 2015 KX450F AIR FORKS.....

Its called SSS!!! Right off my 15 YZ250F.
Boom!

How much work did it take to make it fit? And what did you do? KX or YZ Wheels?
11/16/2015 4:44am
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air cooled, linkless, spring forked, steel frame "race bike" so all the rednecks could just shut up. But they'd bitch about that, too.
mx317
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USA
11/16/2015 5:24am
user760a wrote:
I have said this before on this forum (and meant it) I will never, ever buy a bike with air forks. I am not interested in...
I have said this before on this forum (and meant it)

I will never, ever buy a bike with air forks. I am not interested in the BS involved in constantly checking air pressure. I am not interested in having the front of my bike droop down through its travel mid race becauzse of a blown seal. To me, it is an idiotic way to save two pounds.

Today I bought another older Kawasaki 450 with spring forks- a pretty decent 2010 model. I did not do this because I cannot afford a new bike. my bike slush fund is very healthy. I just bought a new streetbike, I blow money on bikes 24/7... I bought the old kawasaki because I love the KX450F but am not getting on the air fork bandwagon. ever. I will go blue or orange if I cannot find any more decent used KX450F's in the future.

dear kawasaki: do you think there may be a reason that the air fork KX450F's are New on ebay for $5999 and still few people are buying them. screw those stupid air forks.
Race Tech makes a spring conversion for the TAC fork now if you don't want air. I have my 16 working well after MB1 revalved it and I found the air pressure that worked for me. I think Yamaha will be going air in the future and KTM already is next year, so you may have to keep a stock of old forks and put them on new bikes.
Tokyo_Tiddler
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Somewhere in, NJ, USA
11/16/2015 5:26am
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air...
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air cooled, linkless, spring forked, steel frame "race bike" so all the rednecks could just shut up. But they'd bitch about that, too.
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your lack of tolerance of others having another opinion.
11/16/2015 6:09am
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air...
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air cooled, linkless, spring forked, steel frame "race bike" so all the rednecks could just shut up. But they'd bitch about that, too.
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your...
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your lack of tolerance of others having another opinion.
And you forgot how bad the USD forks were in 89, and how good they were by 97.

TeamGreen
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Thru-out, CA, USA
11/16/2015 6:57am
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air...
I love how the motocross community never ceases to cater to the lowest hanging fruit. Sometimes I wish that someone truly would build a 200cc air cooled, linkless, spring forked, steel frame "race bike" so all the rednecks could just shut up. But they'd bitch about that, too.
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your...
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your lack of tolerance of others having another opinion.
And you forgot how bad the USD forks were in 89, and how good they were by 97.

What was the best fork in '89?
DownSouth
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Tallapoosa, GA, USA
11/16/2015 7:03am
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your...
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your lack of tolerance of others having another opinion.
And you forgot how bad the USD forks were in 89, and how good they were by 97.

TeamGreen wrote:
What was the best fork in '89?
Kawasaki's conventional KYB's.
hillbilly
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Afton, TN, USA
11/16/2015 7:12am
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your...
Your extreme example to try and make a point makes it obvious that you dont follow the point that others are trying to make and your lack of tolerance of others having another opinion.
And you forgot how bad the USD forks were in 89, and how good they were by 97.

TeamGreen wrote:
What was the best fork in '89?
White power but i did my own and knew them well.

On the air forks, seems like straight air would build pressure as it heats up, P=V (T). So each degree the temps rises so would the psi raise one pound.

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