2015 RMZ450 SFFAIR --HELP

969b
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Edited Date/Time 1/6/2016 2:18pm
I just bought the new zook and I can't find any information on how best to setup the air chambers - im not interested in std stiff/soft settings. Manual is non-descript and useless. I did see a few YT vids but they don't provide recommendations or help setting them up - they are mostly generic marketing stuff. Specifically I'm curious if anyone has tested the inner and balance chamber settings. I'm a 260lbs rider so I used 185/185 in both chambers, but I see the balance goes up to 199. What is increasing or decreasing this chamber going to do for bump absorbsion? I'm running 0 psi in the outer chamber.

I also have an issue with my foxshox pump (300psi digital model), whenever I remove the pump it bleeds air, when I hook the pump back up it shows 5PSI less than what I set initially. This seems to mean the pump is bleeding air everytime I disconnect, this makes accuracy impossible. Anyone have this problem or a solution?

I was thinking of calling Showa but I don't speak Japanese. WS is only other company that has any experience with these but I'm not sure they will want to help.

Is there an SFFAIR specialist out there? Thanks in advance!
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kmk371
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Wildomar, CA, USA
8/11/2014 1:33pm
Technically if your pump is bleeding 5psi every time you use it than its staying consistent. Just add an extra 5 psi. At this point with how new the TAC forks are not many small local suspension people will know how to work on them properly (and my 2 cents is that there isn't really any GREAT suspension tuners in the norcal area.) With that said I highly recommend calling Factory Connection. They do really amazing work and do a great job at giving the customer personalized service without that "big name company" feeling that they don't care about you.

Also thought this video was informative and helpful. Good stuff from foster:
http://motocross.transworld.net/1000164731/news/first-impression-2015-s…
nytsmaC
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8/11/2014 2:13pm
Talk to Graeme Brough, he's a nice guy to chat with and knows Showa as well as anybody.
Mr Bean
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8/11/2014 2:40pm
My suggestion for the gauge/pressure situation would be to record whatever pressure the gauge displays when you set it and not worry about any leakage and what the "actual" pressure is. As long as you're consistent with the method is what matters.
Besides, you don't know if the gauge is 100% accurate so you're already using it for reference number.

Falcon
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8/11/2014 5:30pm
Mr Bean wrote:
My suggestion for the gauge/pressure situation would be to record whatever pressure the gauge displays when you set it and not worry about any leakage and...
My suggestion for the gauge/pressure situation would be to record whatever pressure the gauge displays when you set it and not worry about any leakage and what the "actual" pressure is. As long as you're consistent with the method is what matters.
Besides, you don't know if the gauge is 100% accurate so you're already using it for reference number.

This.

Suzuki sells an air gauge for exactly this purpose. It will burp a small amount of air at the very highest pressures, but it is pretty consistent down at lower (operating) pressures. The gauge agrees with a high-quality dial gauge down to about 7 psi and will measure up to 300 psi. The part number is 990A0-300PS. It should be available at your local dealer this month.

The official recommendation from SMAI as I understand it is to run 0 psi in the balance chamber; it is supposed to oppose the other two chambers. The main (inner) chamber is the "spring" that sets your basic ride height and stiffness, the secondary (outer) chamber is the one that ramps up the spring rate as the fork travels (think of it as "linkage" on your forks, or a way to reduce bottoming) and the balance chamber at the bottom will actually soften the other two if you add air to it (a quick way to adjust firmness without upsetting the balance between the two main chambers.)

Keep in mind that I've never ridden one yet myself, so I might be way out in left field on all this...

The Shop

969b
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8/11/2014 7:18pm
Falcon wrote:
This. Suzuki sells an air gauge for exactly this purpose. It will burp a small amount of air at the very highest pressures, but it is...
This.

Suzuki sells an air gauge for exactly this purpose. It will burp a small amount of air at the very highest pressures, but it is pretty consistent down at lower (operating) pressures. The gauge agrees with a high-quality dial gauge down to about 7 psi and will measure up to 300 psi. The part number is 990A0-300PS. It should be available at your local dealer this month.

The official recommendation from SMAI as I understand it is to run 0 psi in the balance chamber; it is supposed to oppose the other two chambers. The main (inner) chamber is the "spring" that sets your basic ride height and stiffness, the secondary (outer) chamber is the one that ramps up the spring rate as the fork travels (think of it as "linkage" on your forks, or a way to reduce bottoming) and the balance chamber at the bottom will actually soften the other two if you add air to it (a quick way to adjust firmness without upsetting the balance between the two main chambers.)

Keep in mind that I've never ridden one yet myself, so I might be way out in left field on all this...

Thanks, i have the FoxShox digital that's accurate to 0.5 PSI and has the same slow bleed valve. This is a top of the line pump, in fact most 300PSI digitals are all the same MFG that different companies put their name on from what I've learned. The KX pump is the same one I have, I'm shocked Suzuki doesnt provide one as its a necessary tool for normal operation.

0 PSI in the balance chamber is not correct. The outer chamber is set at 0PSI, the balance chamber counteracts the Inner at high pressue up to 199. You mixed the outer and balance. The outer being set so low means that when a seal blows you don't loose pressure like the PSF on the honda/kawi.
969b
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8/11/2014 7:21pm
Mr Bean wrote:
My suggestion for the gauge/pressure situation would be to record whatever pressure the gauge displays when you set it and not worry about any leakage and...
My suggestion for the gauge/pressure situation would be to record whatever pressure the gauge displays when you set it and not worry about any leakage and what the "actual" pressure is. As long as you're consistent with the method is what matters.
Besides, you don't know if the gauge is 100% accurate so you're already using it for reference number.

The gauge says its accurate to 0.5 psi. The problem I noticed is that on 5 different tries the reading upon re-connecting decreases differently. The first time it decreased by 5PSI, the second time 4, then 2, then 5.5, then 7. I also noticed that the balance chamber pressure decreases by 10PSI when disconnecting, 5-x more than the inner. I had to go up to 195PSI to keep the balance at 185. This is not a very accurate way to ensure proper PSI!
Mr Bean
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8/11/2014 8:16pm
969b wrote:
The gauge says its accurate to 0.5 psi. The problem I noticed is that on 5 different tries the reading upon re-connecting decreases differently. The first...
The gauge says its accurate to 0.5 psi. The problem I noticed is that on 5 different tries the reading upon re-connecting decreases differently. The first time it decreased by 5PSI, the second time 4, then 2, then 5.5, then 7. I also noticed that the balance chamber pressure decreases by 10PSI when disconnecting, 5-x more than the inner. I had to go up to 195PSI to keep the balance at 185. This is not a very accurate way to ensure proper PSI!
I think I see your concern - inconsistent post-disconnect pressure loss.

The gauge may very well be that accurate but the pressure loss seems to be coming from the air that escapes when disconnecting.

If the loss was consistent with every disconnect then I wouldn't worry about it, but since that doesn't seem to be the case you may have to see if there is some sort of zero-loss coupler available like the ones used for gassing shocks. Or, if not, perhaps fab one yourself and sell it at a greatly inflated price like everyone else in the off-road world! Grinning

I suspect the greater loss for the BC may be due to a smaller volume in that chamber compared to the IC. Just a guess - I know nothing about these forks in specific, just deducing this based on the numbers you provided.

I also suspect the the small relative volume of these chambers is what causes the variation in pressures after disconnecting. The slightest variation in the amount of air that is allowed to escape can cause a measurable difference in pressure.

Looks like some teething pains with the new stuff.
slipdog
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8/12/2014 6:50am
Don't forget that you also always loose a certain amount of pressure every time you hook up your gauge depending upon the volume of the hose that connects your gauge. So loss removing the gauge and loss installing gauge. your inconstant readings is from the removal process as the filling losses will remain consistent.
FGR01
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Fantasy
8/12/2014 8:38am
Exactly, you will lose a little disconnecting the pump and also lose a little reconnecting to check how much you lost!

The trick is to try to be consistent with how you disconnect it. Been dealing with this for years on mountain bikes (which have a much smaller volume and therefore higher % loss). I try to unthread it as fast as I can to minimize loss and do it the same each time.
Falcon
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8/12/2014 11:13am
Falcon wrote:
This. Suzuki sells an air gauge for exactly this purpose. It will burp a small amount of air at the very highest pressures, but it is...
This.

Suzuki sells an air gauge for exactly this purpose. It will burp a small amount of air at the very highest pressures, but it is pretty consistent down at lower (operating) pressures. The gauge agrees with a high-quality dial gauge down to about 7 psi and will measure up to 300 psi. The part number is 990A0-300PS. It should be available at your local dealer this month.

The official recommendation from SMAI as I understand it is to run 0 psi in the balance chamber; it is supposed to oppose the other two chambers. The main (inner) chamber is the "spring" that sets your basic ride height and stiffness, the secondary (outer) chamber is the one that ramps up the spring rate as the fork travels (think of it as "linkage" on your forks, or a way to reduce bottoming) and the balance chamber at the bottom will actually soften the other two if you add air to it (a quick way to adjust firmness without upsetting the balance between the two main chambers.)

Keep in mind that I've never ridden one yet myself, so I might be way out in left field on all this...

969b wrote:
Thanks, i have the FoxShox digital that's accurate to 0.5 PSI and has the same slow bleed valve. This is a top of the line pump...
Thanks, i have the FoxShox digital that's accurate to 0.5 PSI and has the same slow bleed valve. This is a top of the line pump, in fact most 300PSI digitals are all the same MFG that different companies put their name on from what I've learned. The KX pump is the same one I have, I'm shocked Suzuki doesnt provide one as its a necessary tool for normal operation.

0 PSI in the balance chamber is not correct. The outer chamber is set at 0PSI, the balance chamber counteracts the Inner at high pressue up to 199. You mixed the outer and balance. The outer being set so low means that when a seal blows you don't loose pressure like the PSF on the honda/kawi.
Ah, you are correct, sir! I had my chambers mixed up.

You're also correct that most air pumps are made by the same company. I am not familiar with the Fox one, but don't be so sure it's correct down to 0.5 psi, even if it will read in .5 increments.
Falcon
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8/12/2014 1:09pm
OK, so I found out from a Suzuki test rider what the scoop is. He says you should always start with a balanced pressure between the inner and balance chambers. In your case, he suggests to start with an equal, heavier psi in both. You can then adjust the balance chamber upward, but that will actually soften the fork in the initial part of the stroke. Do this in small increments because it apparently makes a big difference.
You can also add some air to the outer chamber if you want a harder, stiffer feel overall. Don't add much, as this chamber is designed for 0 psi. It can be used in a pinch to give your fork a firmer feel, up to about 20 psi. The results will be felt more in the later portions of the stroke.
The takeaway is this: A little extra air in the balance chamber and the outer chamber will give you a softer initial feel and a more progressive spring as the fork travels. Less air in in both those will give you a firmer initial bite and more linear progression as the fork moves through its stroke.
Also, don't forget that the left fork leg has compression and rebound adjustments just like a regular fork. Our test guy goes one click firmer (clockwise) than stock on the compression and one click slower (also clockwise) on the rebound.
8/14/2014 3:04pm
do the suzukis come with a free air pump? also, I read in the 2015 kx450 manual that you have to let all of the air out of the balance chamber before you start adjusting air! when you put the bike on a stand with both wheels in the air, the front wheel stayed sucked up...so once I let the air out of the balance chamber, the fork extended out to full travel, it just plopped down! problem is, it takes A LOT of pumps to get the balance chamber back up to normal air pressure(131 psi for a KX). so I hope you only do this once in a while? and the manuals are kind of hard to figure out, both RMZ and KXF. it looks like you have to adjust air in a specific order: 1st inner, 2nd outer and last the balance chamber
Falcon
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8/14/2014 5:29pm
No, the Suzuki RM-Z does not include a pump with the motorcycle.

As for the KX-F version of the forks, I don't really know if it's exactly the same fork. I do know that you should adjust the air chambers in order, as they are all inter-related. You will achieve your final psi readings much more quickly if you do them in the proper order.
969b
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8/14/2014 5:38pm
Suzuki does not include an air pump, Kawasaki does. The pump I have is identical to the one KX ships. The forks are identical, aside from color of the caps. Mfgs get them from Showa with slight differences, but not anything functional from what I was told. I haven't noticed any issues with the fork being sucked up yet, but I haven't decreased below stock air pressures. I only increased to support my heavier size. RMZ manual says nothing about letting the air out - if it does it's buried somewhere that I missed. Knowing how long it takes to pump up my 13 Honda PSF air forks just to get to 39PSI, there is no way I want to let all the air out to adjust, that makes no sense to me.

Thanks Falcon, that's good to know. I didn't understand the reason for the outer chamber and what adjusting that does to the overal feel. I will test it this Saturday to see what more I can learn about the fork. I will update everyone then. Thanks for all the feedback and ideas, it's helped a bunch!!!!
slipdog
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8/14/2014 6:32pm
Pssstttt...

This may help speed the process.


Mr Bean
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8/14/2014 7:58pm
969b wrote:
Suzuki does not include an air pump, Kawasaki does. The pump I have is identical to the one KX ships. The forks are identical, aside from...
Suzuki does not include an air pump, Kawasaki does. The pump I have is identical to the one KX ships. The forks are identical, aside from color of the caps. Mfgs get them from Showa with slight differences, but not anything functional from what I was told. I haven't noticed any issues with the fork being sucked up yet, but I haven't decreased below stock air pressures. I only increased to support my heavier size. RMZ manual says nothing about letting the air out - if it does it's buried somewhere that I missed. Knowing how long it takes to pump up my 13 Honda PSF air forks just to get to 39PSI, there is no way I want to let all the air out to adjust, that makes no sense to me.

Thanks Falcon, that's good to know. I didn't understand the reason for the outer chamber and what adjusting that does to the overal feel. I will test it this Saturday to see what more I can learn about the fork. I will update everyone then. Thanks for all the feedback and ideas, it's helped a bunch!!!!
Please continue to post what you learn - it helps everyone who wants to learn.

Thanks!
captmoto
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8/15/2014 10:35am
slipdog wrote:
Pssstttt... This may help speed the process. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2014/08/14/62395/s1200_spin_prod_949519712.jpg[/img]
Pssstttt...

This may help speed the process.


Use a water trap/separator if you are going with big volumes or pressures from this.
Bruce372
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12/5/2014 8:43am
bump...how is this fork working out?
colson973
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12/6/2014 12:39pm Edited Date/Time 12/6/2014 12:40pm
Most digital fork air pumps are accurate enough to set the forks. I am a race tech center in MN and when I was in CA at Race Tech a month ago for training and we went over these. forks To properly set the initial pressure in the forks for your weight you need to first completely empty the bottom balance chamber. Then set your inner chamber psi. After setting that at say 185psi. You then go and fill your balance chamber to 6-7 psi lower than your compression chamber. your balance chamber acts like spring preload on a regular spring . you need just a little bit on there to make sure the fork fully extends properly. 6-7psi below your compression chamber is equal to about 4mm of spring preload in a spring fork. Make sure you empty the balance chamber before setting your compression chamber or your will be chasing psi all day! I recommend no air or very very little air in the outside chamber. air in the outer chamber adds friction do to added seal drag and this can lead to some on throttle harshness.

Bruce372
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12/8/2014 2:49pm
I ordered a factory connection spring today- their settings are for 220lbs rider

6.1kg/mm spring

fork

inner 174psi
balance 180psi
outer 10psi
look out below
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2/1/2015 8:26pm
Bruce372 wrote:
I ordered a factory connection spring today- their settings are for 220lbs rider

6.1kg/mm spring

fork

inner 174psi
balance 180psi
outer 10psi
That is the same air pressures they set me up with. Unsure and i'm 145lbs.

Does any one else feel a 'top out' when going thru whoops? I have pretty much left the air pressures alone and adjusted the clickers so far. I have only ridden it once...damn winter.
2/2/2015 3:57pm
I haven't seen the new FOX gauge but if you could find the FOX tool for the old FOX air shocks that is the way to go.
Bruce372
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2/2/2015 4:00pm
Bruce372 wrote:
I ordered a factory connection spring today- their settings are for 220lbs rider

6.1kg/mm spring

fork

inner 174psi
balance 180psi
outer 10psi
That is the same air pressures they set me up with. :unsure: and i'm 145lbs. Does any one else feel a 'top out' when going thru...
That is the same air pressures they set me up with. Unsure and i'm 145lbs.

Does any one else feel a 'top out' when going thru whoops? I have pretty much left the air pressures alone and adjusted the clickers so far. I have only ridden it once...damn winter.
LOL!!!
Bruce372
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4/23/2015 8:25am
Bump.

Any updates on what pressures people are running???
crluke14
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4/30/2015 2:21pm
Hi, I'm struggling to get these forks to feel any good. I'm also noticing that there is a build up of air in the outer chamber. I find this seems to make the fork feel harsh. I find the forks good on big hits but stutter bumps seem solid. I weigh 88kgs and have been running 180 in inner, 0 in outer and 185 in balance chamber.
Bruce372
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4/30/2015 3:28pm
crluke14 wrote:
Hi, I'm struggling to get these forks to feel any good. I'm also noticing that there is a build up of air in the outer chamber...
Hi, I'm struggling to get these forks to feel any good. I'm also noticing that there is a build up of air in the outer chamber. I find this seems to make the fork feel harsh. I find the forks good on big hits but stutter bumps seem solid. I weigh 88kgs and have been running 180 in inner, 0 in outer and 185 in balance chamber.
yep, that's exactly what I've observed! Although I am slightly heavier at 230lbs, I tried 195 on both chambers and also 185 on both chambers with 0 outer. I haven't observed any air build up in the outer chamber though.

For action is pretty good for the most part, but its the smaller stuff where they seem to deflect instead of use the early part of the stroke....Last nights track was hard packed from winter and just dug up so it was really lumpy and all the riders were having issues with busy handlebars at speed, but mine was especially eye opening!!! I don't think its the damping causing this.

As much as I hate to say it, I remember the MXA review alluding to this and I think they were able to dial it out.

ALso, I think getting the shock setup is key on this bike 105mm sag and enough compression damping on the back end to make the front end work.

post back if you figure it out.

slipdog
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4/30/2015 5:02pm
crluke14 wrote:
Hi, I'm struggling to get these forks to feel any good. I'm also noticing that there is a build up of air in the outer chamber...
Hi, I'm struggling to get these forks to feel any good. I'm also noticing that there is a build up of air in the outer chamber. I find this seems to make the fork feel harsh. I find the forks good on big hits but stutter bumps seem solid. I weigh 88kgs and have been running 180 in inner, 0 in outer and 185 in balance chamber.
Bruce372 wrote:
yep, that's exactly what I've observed! Although I am slightly heavier at 230lbs, I tried 195 on both chambers and also 185 on both chambers with...
yep, that's exactly what I've observed! Although I am slightly heavier at 230lbs, I tried 195 on both chambers and also 185 on both chambers with 0 outer. I haven't observed any air build up in the outer chamber though.

For action is pretty good for the most part, but its the smaller stuff where they seem to deflect instead of use the early part of the stroke....Last nights track was hard packed from winter and just dug up so it was really lumpy and all the riders were having issues with busy handlebars at speed, but mine was especially eye opening!!! I don't think its the damping causing this.

As much as I hate to say it, I remember the MXA review alluding to this and I think they were able to dial it out.

ALso, I think getting the shock setup is key on this bike 105mm sag and enough compression damping on the back end to make the front end work.

post back if you figure it out.

Are you you still running with stock valving?

I haven't seen the RMZ forks only the KXF, but typically in the past the RMZ was set up with stiffer valving
Bruce372
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4/30/2015 5:27pm Edited Date/Time 4/30/2015 5:28pm
That's a really good point slipdog, especially considering how the 450 spring SFF was setup.

On face value, the KXF TAC forks run a heck of a lot of shims and I wondered if that's why they are running lower air pressures, but the KXF also uses a smaller clamp shim so the net effect might be nil? I am sure someone with a program could calculate the difference.

The 2015 rmz uses much fewer shims than the kxf, and also a much bigger clamp shim- it doesn't run anything behind the clamp either, but I don't know how that relates to whether they have enough room to bend or not.

Ive tried slightly softer valving, but at different tracks so its hard to tell with only 6 hours and 5 rides on the bike.

the fork action feels good,,its just the deflection in the smaller stutter bumps.

maybe these forks need a while longer to break in? there are a few people struggling, and many more that love them. I think its just a matter of time to get them dialed, and hopefully they don't need $$$ throwing at them unlike other stuff out there.
slipdog
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4/30/2015 6:43pm
Bruce, would you mind PM'ing the stock mid, base and reb stacks to me? I'd love to see them and haven't had any come to me yet and have not come across them while lurking over at TT. Or point me in the right direction if you know where I could find them.

Thanks!
crluke14
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5/2/2015 1:26am
That is some really interesting points on the valving. I hadn't considered that. If they were conventional that's exactly what you would be changing. A mate and I both bought these the same time and have both found the same with air build up. It may not be as much as psi I just put a screwdriver on that outer chamber after riding with the bike on the stand as always and you hear it hiss out and sometimes it bubbles out with a bit of oil. We found once air is out they are much more supple. I know that sounds weird as some people run a low pressure to stop the bottom out but I would imagine you must need to run much lower in the inner and balance to compensate. When I tried 5 psi in there it didn't seem to be just bottom out resistance it affected it was stiff right through the stroke. We called a couple Suzuki dealers and suspensions tuners and they seemed a bit embarrassed they don't really know how to get these good yet. The other thing is no two sets of forks with the same psi seem to feel the same so I think there is definite trial and errorAppart from chucking ohlins inserts in. Seems a waste as I love the principle and theory behind these forks. I've had the rear shock set at 105 mm but my static sag was a bit high at 42mm so I've gone a stage softer on soring to hopefully get that around the 35mm mark and try again. I was worried the slightly hard spring was pitching the bike forward onto the front. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks very much for replys.

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