I created a Motocross Incident Database

motogrady
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4/10/2015 8:04am
Bad idea.
Fodder for litigation and insurance companies.

There are those out there that think a big problem is the parent that buys/let's his minor child race or ride in the first place.
If a kid can't understand the consequences of a binding contract, or the danger of drinking too much alcohol, why
would a responsible parent want to risk his loved one in something as inherently dangerous as this pastime?

Does the op really believe he can make this a safe enough sport that the ramifications will be worth the return in what,
the thrill one gets by living vicariously thru another?
BAMX
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4/10/2015 8:10am Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 8:11am
The issue is who is deciding the cause of the accident. The rider or their family may blame their bike or track conditions while someone like me would say that a 120 lb. 13 year old beginner shouldn't have been on the pro track at 3 in the afternoon when the track is beat on a 450. They would and do blame the track and I would blame them. Making conclusions based on speculation is a waste of time. One guy says rutted jump faces while the other says wrong body position.

F1 and NA$CAR were brought up above. I don't see how you could compare a database of speculation although well intentioned with what happened there. Both of those organization made a real effort along with drivers, engineers, doctors to find out how to make the cars and tracks safer so that they didn't kill so many drivers. You can add that they don't put up with any BS. If they test a head and neck system and it works, they force everyone to wear it.
DoctorJD
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4/10/2015 8:11am
TX24 wrote:
I realize dirt is expensive and tabletops take more dirt. If it was a tabletop, do you think he might have saved it? I am glad...
I realize dirt is expensive and tabletops take more dirt. If it was a tabletop, do you think he might have saved it?

I am glad he didn't have more serious injuries also.
I wasn't there, but by every account (he and his two friends) we probably wouldn't be having this conversation if it were a tabletop.
ruskymx
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4/10/2015 8:21am
After the Pulp Show with Kdub and Emig talking about safety, I started doing so research on fatalities in motocross. I gathered the information that I could find in articles online and included the links in the spreadsheet. Take a look at it and see if you see the same trend. I see 14-17 years old with severe head trauma. There are many that were on 250F's but not all and there are also a lot that I couldn't find out what bikes they were on. I know there is a lot of info missing like helmet brands, neck braces, chest protectors etc, but finding reliable information is difficult.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c-2csJ6d8Ys_QDtL_y1qLIkvr9xByM9…

Ruskymx

The Shop

Tracktor
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4/10/2015 8:27am
We need FTE to chime in but i really doubt some random google doc would be admissable in a court of law. Great idea ive wondered why it hasnt been done before. Probably because no one lines to address the "dirty little secret" of MX injuries?....
ns503
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4/10/2015 8:32am
motogrady wrote:
Bad idea. Fodder for litigation and insurance companies. There are those out there that think a big problem is the parent that buys/let's his minor child...
Bad idea.
Fodder for litigation and insurance companies.

There are those out there that think a big problem is the parent that buys/let's his minor child race or ride in the first place.
If a kid can't understand the consequences of a binding contract, or the danger of drinking too much alcohol, why
would a responsible parent want to risk his loved one in something as inherently dangerous as this pastime?

Does the op really believe he can make this a safe enough sport that the ramifications will be worth the return in what,
the thrill one gets by living vicariously thru another?
I think I disagree.

Data gathering like this is a component of many a risk management program. I didn't read the questions though - I don't think they should go to the point of naming names so to speak.
APLMAN99
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4/10/2015 9:01am
DoctorJD wrote:
ALP, I agree with the fact that he shouldn't even have jumped it to start with, he even said so himself. And to clarify, he wasn't...
ALP, I agree with the fact that he shouldn't even have jumped it to start with, he even said so himself. And to clarify, he wasn't "turning it into a double", it was a double. And yes, hundreds of riders had probably done that jump without the same outcome as my son, but point was: Why make the degree of difficulty so high? For me, the hardest jump to do are those short, steep, take-off jumps, I've always called them "kickers". Even harder is trying to do a jump right out of a corner. As a track builder, why even ask riders to negotiate that kind of obstacle? This incident is simply a microcosm of what's happening in the sport.

My idea is to have a guideline for track builders. If anyone here is into mountain biking, and they've done trail work, they know that IMBA has guidelines on trail building. They even have schools nationwide, online videos, manuals, the whole nine yards. Granted, the guidelines are in place to create sustainable trails, but why can't we do the same thing in motocross to create safer tracks? Yes, I know this is a dangerous sport, I've been doing it for close to 40 years, but you can't tell me we can't make it safer. The combination of the right safety gear (mandated on the amature level), and tracks built with some level of intelligence would go a long way IMHO.

I get what you're saying but again it points out the evolution of how we think of this sport. I'm of the belief that if you can't (or shouldn't) clear a span, then it isn't a double. At least not for you. It may very well be a double for someone with a more capable machine or a higher skill level. For others, it should be a couple of peaks that you roll over.
Zesiger 112
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4/10/2015 9:12am
This would be hard to do because motocross is such an un-organized sport, there's no way to make every back yard back woods track participate.
But a cool idea would be for example: every lorretta lynns track on the qualifying schedule, should have a safety ranking and a track difficultly rating. Maybe like a 1-10 scale, based off of recorded crashes, track safety precautions, and track features.
yak651
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4/10/2015 9:37am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I'm glad your son escaped without more serious injuries. The track issue, however, is more complicated. In a situation like you described, it sounds like he...
I'm glad your son escaped without more serious injuries.

The track issue, however, is more complicated. In a situation like you described, it sounds like he shouldn't have been attempting to jump that gap. Perhaps the obstacle should have been rolled, rather than turned into a double. The idea that every obstacle should be easy or even doable by most racers is the crux of the issue. So an incident such as what you described has less to do with track condition than it does attempting to do something that exceeds the bike or the rider's capabilities.
DoctorJD wrote:
ALP, I agree with the fact that he shouldn't even have jumped it to start with, he even said so himself. And to clarify, he wasn't...
ALP, I agree with the fact that he shouldn't even have jumped it to start with, he even said so himself. And to clarify, he wasn't "turning it into a double", it was a double. And yes, hundreds of riders had probably done that jump without the same outcome as my son, but point was: Why make the degree of difficulty so high? For me, the hardest jump to do are those short, steep, take-off jumps, I've always called them "kickers". Even harder is trying to do a jump right out of a corner. As a track builder, why even ask riders to negotiate that kind of obstacle? This incident is simply a microcosm of what's happening in the sport.

My idea is to have a guideline for track builders. If anyone here is into mountain biking, and they've done trail work, they know that IMBA has guidelines on trail building. They even have schools nationwide, online videos, manuals, the whole nine yards. Granted, the guidelines are in place to create sustainable trails, but why can't we do the same thing in motocross to create safer tracks? Yes, I know this is a dangerous sport, I've been doing it for close to 40 years, but you can't tell me we can't make it safer. The combination of the right safety gear (mandated on the amature level), and tracks built with some level of intelligence would go a long way IMHO.

Personally I always preferred doubles out of a corner that you have to seat bounce to get over, over ones further that are "at speed" for the simple fact that the one out of the corner maybe more technical, but if you do crash it's at a lower speed and tends to lead to more "embarrassing" that injury outcomes. Just my 2 cents..
Toste
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4/10/2015 9:40am
I like the idea, but I do think a lot of the questions are too speculative and subjective in nature.

The purpose of something like this should be to gather objective data for statistical analysis, not to have submitters draw their own conclusions up front. No doubt, the objective questions will be more boring and limited (individually), but how is it really possible to account for "Riding Over His/Her Head (Going too fast)" or "Lack of Concentration"?

APLMAN99
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4/10/2015 10:37am
As for the "database" itself, I can understand the intention being good. But something makes me think that it's eventually going to be used as a resource for efforts to ban kids from riding dirt bikes and such. I actually wouldn't be surprised if some folks begin entering bogus incidents just to try to strengthen their case on trying to institute such bans. While it may not be something considered "evidence" in court, it doesn't need to be proven to be used in testimony before the CPSC or other regulating groups. I have visions of someone testifying about the number of self-reported injuries and how it's likely such a small fraction of the actual injuries that occur.

I hope I'm wrong.......
holeshot100
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4/10/2015 11:15am
I certainly would like to be able to keep my health insurance and ride.
Way too many variables in this support.
A helpful hints guide to safer tracks.....yeah maybe, but everyone's subjective opinions to actual incidents.
Have you ever run a motocross track and dealt with all the families?
752dad
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4/10/2015 1:06pm
DoctorJD wrote:
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1...
To the detractors, great, lets just sit on our asses and make no effort at all to make a dangerous sport a little less dangerous. F1 was made safer, NASCAR was made safer, why the hell do you think its impossible to make motocross safer? Is it arrogance or ignorance that fuels this thinking?

Here's my recent personal experience: My son was in a huge wad-up last week. It was a short double right out of a corner. Nothing too hard, but the takeoff jump was a kicker (short, very steep takeoff). Apparently, since it was so close to the exit of the corner, he had to seat-bounce it to clear it. Okay, lets add all of this up: Jump literally at the exit of a corner with no run-in. Stupid-steep with a short face. What would it have taken to push that jump back another 20ft and given it a less-aggressive (and longer) takeoff? This is what I'm saying: There needs to be some kind of guideline for track builders to follow. Pull a measuring tape on the jump face, it needs to be no less than "X" long. Put an inclinometer (slope indicator) on the jump face. Pull that tape out again. How far is it from the exit of the corner? Is it that damn hard?

One more thing. He endo'd into the face of the 2nd jump and was violently ejected. They said the bike was about 40' down the track from where he was laying. There wasn't a single part of his body that wasn't scratched-up or aching. However, his only major injury was a huge gash on the inside of his knee, so deep you could see his kneecap. Took six stitches. He wears a quality helmet (Troy Lee), under-jersey body protection (Fox Titan), good boots (Tech 7's), and most importantly, a neck brace. After he got home, I began unloading his stuff. As I was going through his gear, I picked up his Leatt, and it was mangled. The thoriatic wing had sheared right at the upper base, just as it should have.

Say what you will, but wearing the proper gear saved him from much worse injury. Even at 17 he's wise enough will tell you that. See, there's another part of the solution, even a 17-year-old gets it. You will never make motocross safe, but to say you can't make it "safer" is absolute ignorance.

Finally, I agree that the track should not be named in the survey, at least not at this point. It shouldn't be so much about pointing fingers as it is educating.
I couldn't agree more.
Best post on this subject.
Well done sir.
level
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4/10/2015 1:40pm
If this can be done on a massive scale it would really help.

I would say have each track owner across the country or world sign up for a database like this. AMA could sanction it and collect the data.
FlaNard
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4/10/2015 2:05pm
Glad someone is attempting to do something. Well done.
jtiger12
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4/10/2015 2:30pm
Terrible idea. Shut it down and delete any data you have. You could end up being subpoenaed in an insurance case and being our worst enemy.
philG
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4/10/2015 2:40pm
nytsmaC wrote:
This is good, as long as it doesn't end up getting used as evidence for some kind of litigation.
Spartacus wrote:
Looks like it would be a potential treasure trove in litagation.

hillbilly wrote:
Reason i posted careful what you wish for. No way to verify the info. That is the reason I figure it has never been done. Trying...
Reason i posted careful what you wish for.

No way to verify the info. That is the reason I figure it has never been done.

Trying to reconstruct mx crashes would be very hard,everything is scraped up quick as possible to get out of danger,so much happening that eyewitnesses would be sketchy.

If you blame an engine locking up on a crf how the hell you going to keep it from reflecting on honda when it was really johnny no tools forgetting to put oil in.

Best thing to do is assume the risk .
This...

nothing good can come of it.
Jkawi
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4/10/2015 3:08pm
I think this is a great idea. One thing that comes to mind though is how do you normalize the data to reflect the real problem? example: the percentage of crashes on a 4 stroke is simply going to be higher because more people ride them. I think it needs to be normalized so it is a percentage of crashes per percentage of people riding/doing them/that. Or else it is going to look like the most popular trend is the most dangerous simply because of numbers. My 0.02.

Good on the OP for going to the effort to do this. Kudos.
NV825
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4/10/2015 3:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 3:40pm
I'm all for starting some form of documentation to pinpoint areas of concern for safety, but you need to get rid of the subjective questions.

Types of dirt or track conditions can vary on different sections of the same track. The human behavior question is very subjective to whoever is filling out the form. The types of failures can't necessarily be proven on every single crash because what happens if the wheel was demolished during the crash, but it was not part of the reason to cause the crash.

You need to focus on the facts. 2-stroke or 4-stroke is a fact (though there are many more riders of 4-strokes than 2-strokes now). Engine CC size is a fact. Colliding with an object is a yes or no fact. The track where the crash happened is a fact.

If you do this and you get a good amount of data (confirmed and not just made up), then you can use the facts to red flag something. Let's say you get 100 samples from tracks all over, but 20 of them are from Local Yokel Raceway. This means something is going on at that track and should be investigated further for safety issues.
sandtrack315
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4/10/2015 4:00pm
[b]I created a Motocross Incident Database with the intent of creating running statistics on crashes, injuries, etc.[/b] Motocross is a very dangerous sport and it seems...
I created a Motocross Incident Database with the intent of creating running statistics on crashes, injuries, etc.

Motocross is a very dangerous sport and it seems as though more and more crashes and injuries are occurring as time goes on. There currently does not exist a database of statistics of these incidents where analysis can be done in order to make the sport safer. My hope is that people will use this (with good intentions) and over time we can figure out what the trends are and fix them!

The idea is that the general public will fill out this form to report incidents.

Here's the link to a Google Docs Form with questions to fill out. I hope this is easy enough for people to fill out.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KpMWds9cqI8TCt7lX4SYFKOv1X8ugDy2cRNTB6…

Feedback is much appreciated. I'd like to make this as informative and useful as possible.

Here is a link to the stat's summary page.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KpMWds9cqI8TCt7lX4SYFKOv1X8ugDy2cRNTB6…
Nice! Can you export the data as a csv file? That makes it easy for someone like me (statistics and computer science background) to analyze the data in seconds and let y'all know which things predict which types of crashes.
sandtrack315
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4/10/2015 4:00pm Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 4:00pm
NV825 wrote:
I'm all for starting some form of documentation to pinpoint areas of concern for safety, but you need to get rid of the subjective questions. Types...
I'm all for starting some form of documentation to pinpoint areas of concern for safety, but you need to get rid of the subjective questions.

Types of dirt or track conditions can vary on different sections of the same track. The human behavior question is very subjective to whoever is filling out the form. The types of failures can't necessarily be proven on every single crash because what happens if the wheel was demolished during the crash, but it was not part of the reason to cause the crash.

You need to focus on the facts. 2-stroke or 4-stroke is a fact (though there are many more riders of 4-strokes than 2-strokes now). Engine CC size is a fact. Colliding with an object is a yes or no fact. The track where the crash happened is a fact.

If you do this and you get a good amount of data (confirmed and not just made up), then you can use the facts to red flag something. Let's say you get 100 samples from tracks all over, but 20 of them are from Local Yokel Raceway. This means something is going on at that track and should be investigated further for safety issues.
Facts are facts, but more data is better than less data. Just take the more subjective responses with grains of salt.
fins227
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4/10/2015 4:13pm
WOW, great job by the OP. looking at the data from a dirt bike kids POV its easy to see what the problem is! Im glad i race offroad!
Wes350
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4/10/2015 4:43pm
Spartacus wrote:
Looks like it would be a potential treasure trove in litagation.

hillbilly wrote:
Reason i posted careful what you wish for. No way to verify the info. That is the reason I figure it has never been done. Trying...
Reason i posted careful what you wish for.

No way to verify the info. That is the reason I figure it has never been done.

Trying to reconstruct mx crashes would be very hard,everything is scraped up quick as possible to get out of danger,so much happening that eyewitnesses would be sketchy.

If you blame an engine locking up on a crf how the hell you going to keep it from reflecting on honda when it was really johnny no tools forgetting to put oil in.

Best thing to do is assume the risk .
philG wrote:
This...

nothing good can come of it.
I agree with this, basically the summary i see of all the answers so far are operator error. In the end we are the only one in control of the bike.
Over jump a triple and crash and break your leg, you're own fault nothing else. Cross rut a jump and break your back, you're own fault. Fall over in a rutted corner and hurt your big toe etc etc. Its 99% of the time the riders fault, we could go on & on for ever about outside factors that caused it but in the end you are in control of the bike. The sport at a whole is dangerous and with that comes risks and responsibilities that are yours and yours only.
All these other reasons to me just seem to be looking for something or someone else to blame for your own lapse in concentration, mistake, riding above your ability, stupidity etc.
I think nothing good would come of this either
4/10/2015 5:13pm
People will litigate whether or not there is a DB or a list.

If a "db" or list is found and used, one side will try to use whatever information they find to support their position. The other will try to discredit their source, just as they do now.

Discrediting the relevance and/or accuracy of something found on the internet is usually child's play Just take a quick run thru this forum for evidence of that..

As far as the soundness of the data, there will likely be something reasonable men conclude even if the "data" isn't in a format that facilitates statistical analysis.

From where we are, even a little improvement is better than no improvement.
Fat Fingers
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4/10/2015 5:39pm
One of the problems with lots of data is you have few controls over what goes in and it could be due to interpretation. If you have too many fields, it can really make things hard to get your head around so what seems like a good idea can end up hard to interpret with 1000s of bits of info and no consistency to how it was put in.

It might be a good idea to start off with a core sample, see if the results start to form a trend and then expand on it. One way to do this could be to analyse all crashes from Supercross 2015. There would be footage of most crashes and you could start from there. The tricky thing is your interpretation of crashes and what caused them. Was the Weimer / canard crash rider error or poor track design or whatever.

Fat Fingers
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4/10/2015 5:45pm
Now that I think of it, it's amazing in this stat driven world that crashes at pro level are not analysed. If you compare it to football and think of what they have done, mx is about 20 years behind.
DPR250R
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4/10/2015 5:50pm
Just wanted to jump in and give credit to the OP for trying to do something.
the_wood109
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4/10/2015 5:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/10/2015 5:57pm
If you are interested in statistics in the Pro ranks alone, I would look into how long Racerx has been doing their injury reports.

I don't think that it will be an easy task to create any credible data from amature ranks, purely by asking people to fill out a spreadsheet.
the_wood109
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4/10/2015 5:57pm
Now that I think of it, it's amazing in this stat driven world that crashes at pro level are not analysed. If you compare it to...
Now that I think of it, it's amazing in this stat driven world that crashes at pro level are not analysed. If you compare it to football and think of what they have done, mx is about 20 years behind.
Boom.
The Rock
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4/11/2015 11:21am
sclark309d wrote:
People will litigate whether or not there is a DB or a list. If a "db" or list is found and used, one side will try...
People will litigate whether or not there is a DB or a list.

If a "db" or list is found and used, one side will try to use whatever information they find to support their position. The other will try to discredit their source, just as they do now.

Discrediting the relevance and/or accuracy of something found on the internet is usually child's play Just take a quick run thru this forum for evidence of that..

As far as the soundness of the data, there will likely be something reasonable men conclude even if the "data" isn't in a format that facilitates statistical analysis.

From where we are, even a little improvement is better than no improvement.
Great post. Last sentence sums up my feelings.

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