(*)Vital 2 Stroke Community ain't helping the cause...

andymoto
Posts
4771
Joined
11/28/2007
Location
Carmichael, CA, USA
3/20/2015 9:44pm
Be fair if those same exemptions for 4 stroke development that Yamaha, KTM took advantage of in Pro racing yrs ago were allowed one time for new 2 stroke engine technology, if OEM wants.

New n fresh ingenuity seems to attract folks into buying.


3/20/2015 9:45pm
kiwifan wrote:
Except for the unicam engine, the reverse engine, EFI....etc
Funny the unicam engine and the reverse engine are "inovations" that havent won a championship yet. and EFI is a bandaid to fix the thumper engines...
Funny the unicam engine and the reverse engine are "inovations" that havent won a championship yet. and EFI is a bandaid to fix the thumper engines that were hard to start after crashing or stalling. what we can thank the 4 strokes for are more dead and paralized riders.
Grieby54 wrote:
You are completely clueless. The reverse cylinder engines dominated the 250 class last year. EFI does more than help resolve stall and restart issues - it...
You are completely clueless. The reverse cylinder engines dominated the 250 class last year. EFI does more than help resolve stall and restart issues - it prevents bog, something 2T's have plenty of. And the number of strokes does not have implications on people's deaths. You're so blinded by your agenda.
being easier to ride, gives the rider a false sense of confidence that they might not necessarily have if they were on a harder to ride motorcycle.
CR250Rider
Posts
6706
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Moses Lake, WA, USA
3/20/2015 9:52pm
put your money where your mouth is and change the rule back to to let smoker 250s back into the 250 class. lol
#nevereverhappen
malachi177
Posts
2281
Joined
12/18/2010
Location
B.C., BC, CA
3/20/2015 9:54pm Edited Date/Time 3/20/2015 9:55pm
vetmxr wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/03/20/84513/s1200_k_t_m_300.jpg[/img] I just got me a new one :)






I just got me a new one Smile

Damn.....that there is almost perfection. Nice bike!Woohoo

The Shop

3/20/2015 9:54pm
CR250Rider wrote:
put your money where your mouth is and change the rule back to to let smoker 250s back into the 250 class. lol
#nevereverhappen
it could happen.


thats how it is everywhere but the 2 biggest racing organizations
kiwifan
Posts
9804
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
USA
3/20/2015 9:57pm
CR250Rider wrote:
the only innovation the four strokes brought to Supercross was to make the engines twice as big
kiwifan wrote:
Except for the unicam engine, the reverse engine, EFI....etc
Funny the unicam engine and the reverse engine are "inovations" that havent won a championship yet. and EFI is a bandaid to fix the thumper engines...
Funny the unicam engine and the reverse engine are "inovations" that havent won a championship yet. and EFI is a bandaid to fix the thumper engines that were hard to start after crashing or stalling. what we can thank the 4 strokes for are more dead and paralized riders.
riiiiighhtttt......well good luck with seeing your way around in the dark, clearly you are blinded by your own agenda
malachi177
Posts
2281
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12/18/2010
Location
B.C., BC, CA
3/20/2015 9:57pm
CR250Rider wrote:
put your money where your mouth is and change the rule back to to let smoker 250s back into the 250 class. lol
#nevereverhappen
twosmoke30 wrote:
it could happen.


thats how it is everywhere but the 2 biggest racing organizations
Works well up here in Canada Wink
gt80rider
Posts
7154
Joined
4/19/2008
Location
Boulder, CO, USA
3/20/2015 10:20pm
First... Look at the overall number of bikes sold last year compared to the last year that only two strokes were available.

Second... Compare the number of entries at your local track on an average weekend to the last year only two smokes were available.

4 strokes have done a great job of killing off motocross racing AND bike sales.

The only reason some people still buy them is because it is easier to cut a fast lap on a 450 compared to a 250 smoker. Lets quit with the bullsbit here, the "open" class needs to be killed off (again) and 2 vs 4 stroke displacement needs to be equalized. Then you would start seeing the sport grow again and you would have to get on a list to get your hands on a new smoker.
squid121
Posts
1
Joined
3/20/2015
Location
USA
3/20/2015 10:41pm
gt80rider wrote:
First... Look at the overall number of bikes sold last year compared to the last year that only two strokes were available. Second... Compare the number...
First... Look at the overall number of bikes sold last year compared to the last year that only two strokes were available.

Second... Compare the number of entries at your local track on an average weekend to the last year only two smokes were available.

4 strokes have done a great job of killing off motocross racing AND bike sales.

The only reason some people still buy them is because it is easier to cut a fast lap on a 450 compared to a 250 smoker. Lets quit with the bullsbit here, the "open" class needs to be killed off (again) and 2 vs 4 stroke displacement needs to be equalized. Then you would start seeing the sport grow again and you would have to get on a list to get your hands on a new smoker.
This^
ratonmacias
Posts
1194
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Guadalajara, MX
3/20/2015 10:46pm
I dont have an agenda other than safety. Im 36 now. I got my first bike 24 years ago. I follow motocross since 1988. And i find this sport more dangerous everyday. The pros and fast amateurs are having more severe injurys and deaths are coming closer. I have 6 yo twins and they are begging me to get bikes. Read what kevin windham just posted on instagram. Imo this sport is not sustainable the way it is now.
Adam43
Posts
3311
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
WF
3/20/2015 10:56pm
I bought an '03 YZ250 last fall for $2k.

Took my forks, clamps and HSPD off my blown up CRF450.

Got a nice SSS shock with the ti spring from a blown up YZ450.

It works better than a 2015. I don't think those new plastics are worth the extra $6K.




#991
Posts
1685
Joined
8/7/2013
Location
Melbourne, AU
3/21/2015 12:14am Edited Date/Time 3/21/2015 12:18am
Funny the unicam engine and the reverse engine are "inovations" that havent won a championship yet. and EFI is a bandaid to fix the thumper engines...
Funny the unicam engine and the reverse engine are "inovations" that havent won a championship yet. and EFI is a bandaid to fix the thumper engines that were hard to start after crashing or stalling. what we can thank the 4 strokes for are more dead and paralized riders.
Grieby54 wrote:
You are completely clueless. The reverse cylinder engines dominated the 250 class last year. EFI does more than help resolve stall and restart issues - it...
You are completely clueless. The reverse cylinder engines dominated the 250 class last year. EFI does more than help resolve stall and restart issues - it prevents bog, something 2T's have plenty of. And the number of strokes does not have implications on people's deaths. You're so blinded by your agenda.
twosmoke30 wrote:
being easier to ride, gives the rider a false sense of confidence that they might not necessarily have if they were on a harder to ride...
being easier to ride, gives the rider a false sense of confidence that they might not necessarily have if they were on a harder to ride motorcycle.
That. And the tracks and jumps are getting slightly out of control.

I know a ,lot of A-grade MX'ers that refuse to ride at one of our local public "Ride Parks".

I do understand the need for it if our young blokes are going to be able to keep on competing at the USA AMA SX and MX level. But a public ride park isn't the place for it. Last season I raced 06, there were 2 riders killed there. The jumps are 3 times the size, length and difficulty now
kiwifan
Posts
9804
Joined
10/31/2009
Location
USA
3/21/2015 12:30am
Grieby54 wrote:
You are completely clueless. The reverse cylinder engines dominated the 250 class last year. EFI does more than help resolve stall and restart issues - it...
You are completely clueless. The reverse cylinder engines dominated the 250 class last year. EFI does more than help resolve stall and restart issues - it prevents bog, something 2T's have plenty of. And the number of strokes does not have implications on people's deaths. You're so blinded by your agenda.
twosmoke30 wrote:
being easier to ride, gives the rider a false sense of confidence that they might not necessarily have if they were on a harder to ride...
being easier to ride, gives the rider a false sense of confidence that they might not necessarily have if they were on a harder to ride motorcycle.
#991 wrote:
That. And the tracks and jumps are getting slightly out of control. I know a ,lot of A-grade MX'ers that refuse to ride at one of...
That. And the tracks and jumps are getting slightly out of control.

I know a ,lot of A-grade MX'ers that refuse to ride at one of our local public "Ride Parks".

I do understand the need for it if our young blokes are going to be able to keep on competing at the USA AMA SX and MX level. But a public ride park isn't the place for it. Last season I raced 06, there were 2 riders killed there. The jumps are 3 times the size, length and difficulty now
Well I have to agree with you here 991, I think it is the tracks more than the bikes...look even if 2 strokes were still going they would be a lot faster now than they were, there is no doubt of that
3/21/2015 12:41am
One of the problems with SX is that they're making the tracks to where everybody can do everything on it. Where early 2000's only the best could get around the track and do every obstacle. Ever notice the run-up whoop they have to get the riders on top? Ever see them 15 years ago? Nope. The tracks are faster and easier, and the bikes are faster and easier to ride than ever.

Combine that with bikes that equal the playing field even more and you get what we have today. top 15 riders all within 1 second of each other. Yes you can argue that the riders are faster and that there are more top guys than ever but I guarantee you, you put everybody on 250 2 strokes and you have maybe 5 that are even close to each other in times. Because only the best can ride a bike that has bog and takes razor sharp precision to pull moves out like the old battles of ricky, chad, james.


Next you have outdoors, which at least in my area, are outdoor supercross tracks. That are tilled so deep that by the end of the practice day there are peg scraping ruts
3/21/2015 6:54am
I bought a new YZ250 in 2013. I'm not going to run out and buy a 2015 just to make a point. I've invested thousands into the 13 on top of what I paid for it.

I really don't care what others ride. I like my YZ. It is easy to work on and rebuild, and I'm just in this for fun and exercise If smokers go away, I will lament their demise, but I'll be too old to worry about it.
Markopolo400
Posts
1426
Joined
7/24/2012
Location
St. Paul-ish, MN, USA
3/21/2015 7:49am
Adam43 wrote:
I bought an '03 YZ250 last fall for $2k. Took my forks, clamps and HSPD off my blown up CRF450. Got a nice SSS shock with...
I bought an '03 YZ250 last fall for $2k.

Took my forks, clamps and HSPD off my blown up CRF450.

Got a nice SSS shock with the ti spring from a blown up YZ450.

It works better than a 2015. I don't think those new plastics are worth the extra $6K.




I had an 04 YZ250 a few years back, that thing was awesome, inspired confidence.
#991
Posts
1685
Joined
8/7/2013
Location
Melbourne, AU
3/21/2015 7:51am Edited Date/Time 3/21/2015 7:53am
Adam43 wrote:
I bought an '03 YZ250 last fall for $2k. Took my forks, clamps and HSPD off my blown up CRF450. Got a nice SSS shock with...
I bought an '03 YZ250 last fall for $2k.

Took my forks, clamps and HSPD off my blown up CRF450.

Got a nice SSS shock with the ti spring from a blown up YZ450.

It works better than a 2015. I don't think those new plastics are worth the extra $6K.




I had an 04 YZ250 a few years back, that thing was awesome, inspired confidence.
They released the 04 left over stock here as full compliance WR 250's in 05. Mate still has his with full rego. I think they did the same in 03 as well
rmgsxr
Posts
544
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Oak Grove, MO, USA
3/21/2015 8:16am
vetmxr wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/03/20/84513/s1200_k_t_m_300.jpg[/img] I just got me a new one :)






I just got me a new one Smile

Them motherf'ing carbs are a bitch to get to on a Cub!
valvesr4wimps
Posts
84
Joined
3/16/2012
Location
Pleasanton, CA, USA
3/21/2015 8:39am Edited Date/Time 3/21/2015 8:39am
Why are 2 strokes not selling?

Maybe a better question is why are 4 strokes selling? 3 reasons:

1) there is still development. Generally, this years bike is better than last years. Better legs, improved geometry, more power, easier starting, yada yada. If you have the money it tough to give up an advantage to your buddy on the line next to you that just picked up this years bike.

2) If you run a 250F for a couple of HARD seasons it gradually becomes a ticking time bomb. So you can either do a full rebuild or wait for the grenade. When riders get to this point AND see their buddies on the line next to them on the new bikes, well -- you get the idea.

3) A new-to-MX rider showing up in the dealership shows up with *some* information about what they want. At least a portion of that comes from watching Pros in person or on TV. "I want a bike like theirs!"


ZERO of these 3 factors apply to two stroke bikes.



AJ
Posts
933
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lowell, IN, USA
3/21/2015 8:41am Edited Date/Time 3/21/2015 8:56am
Granted they are pricey, but there are new updated 125, 250, and 500 cc 2 stroke available.

125AF


250AF


500AF
BD233
Posts
406
Joined
1/7/2013
Location
DFW, TX, USA
3/21/2015 8:42am
TeamGreen wrote:
Take a look at some of the stuff posted in the responses... "Is this another "buy a brand new 2-stroke every 6 months or shut the...
Take a look at some of the stuff posted in the responses...

"Is this another "buy a brand new 2-stroke every 6 months or shut the fuck up" thread?"

"So only people who are in the new bike market are allowed to have an opinion on rules in pro racing?"

"Yes because only those with massive amounts of disposable income are allowed to have an opinion."

The usual snide and "us-n-them" crap we hear from you guys. Better, yet, is the personal implications of my intent, thanks, to which you guys are welcome to "EABOBOD". Silly

Address the point; if, you will: There are OEM's that're fulfilling the need AND are still developing, albeit -slowly-, new 2T technology. Better sales would incentivize better development.





Addressing the point....2 strokes won't be back. You can't race them and win. Most people who don't race... ride off road and where we ride it's probably 80% 2 strokes. When we go to the tracks it's 80% 4 strokes. You are just backing up the claim all the 2 stroke lovers make....the AMA rules killed the 2 stroke. That's the fact, strait to the point. I have both...love them for differing reasons. Smile
AJ
Posts
933
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Lowell, IN, USA
3/21/2015 8:48am Edited Date/Time 3/21/2015 8:49am
Why are 2 strokes not selling? Maybe a better question is why are 4 strokes selling? 3 reasons: 1) there is still development. Generally, this years...
Why are 2 strokes not selling?

Maybe a better question is why are 4 strokes selling? 3 reasons:

1) there is still development. Generally, this years bike is better than last years. Better legs, improved geometry, more power, easier starting, yada yada. If you have the money it tough to give up an advantage to your buddy on the line next to you that just picked up this years bike.

2) If you run a 250F for a couple of HARD seasons it gradually becomes a ticking time bomb. So you can either do a full rebuild or wait for the grenade. When riders get to this point AND see their buddies on the line next to them on the new bikes, well -- you get the idea.

3) A new-to-MX rider showing up in the dealership shows up with *some* information about what they want. At least a portion of that comes from watching Pros in person or on TV. "I want a bike like theirs!"


ZERO of these 3 factors apply to two stroke bikes.



Good points all around..

[Maybe a better question is why are 4 strokes selling?


Now to me , as a dealership,and enthusiast, the real question might be ARE 4 strokes selling?


Market numbers suggest down 80% from just 3 or 4 years ago..


So then we are going to try and figure out the 2 stroke sales, in an already extremely constricted market?

The reality is KTM seems to be gaining big market share , considering the total units sold circumstances.
and yes most of that is off road, (which is where most all dirt bikes of any brand are actually sold)

MX is a small part of an overall dirt bike market .
That overall market shrunk to the point of almost non existent, so we need t keep in mind the very little impact the mx portion of that actually has?
3/21/2015 9:21am
AJ wrote:
Good points all around.. [quote][Maybe a better question is why are 4 strokes selling?[/quote] Now to me , as a dealership,and enthusiast, the real question might...
Good points all around..

[Maybe a better question is why are 4 strokes selling?


Now to me , as a dealership,and enthusiast, the real question might be ARE 4 strokes selling?


Market numbers suggest down 80% from just 3 or 4 years ago..


So then we are going to try and figure out the 2 stroke sales, in an already extremely constricted market?

The reality is KTM seems to be gaining big market share , considering the total units sold circumstances.
and yes most of that is off road, (which is where most all dirt bikes of any brand are actually sold)

MX is a small part of an overall dirt bike market .
That overall market shrunk to the point of almost non existent, so we need t keep in mind the very little impact the mx portion of that actually has?
Your bikes look incredible. I'm just curious about how those are sold. Assuming that an AF250 starts off as a CRF250, what bike gets reported for sales numbers?
3/21/2015 9:56am
When I grew up every kid had a dirt bike.

Now zero kids have dirt bikes (in comparison)
3/21/2015 10:05am
4 strokes are popular in baja because they will tolerate that garbage mexican Pemix brand gas.

An EFI 2 stroke would be more tolerable as well.

3/21/2015 10:07am
When I grew up every kid had a dirt bike.

Now zero kids have dirt bikes (in comparison)
Haha, those numbers don't lie.
3/21/2015 10:15am
#991 wrote:
I always thought the main motivation for the 4T push was the environmental laws in Cali and the fear in the Industry that they may go...
I always thought the main motivation for the 4T push was the environmental laws in Cali and the fear in the Industry that they may go world wide.
I joined the 4T "revolution" because I didn't think there was going to be a future choice. When Honda stopped their 2T production that further prompted my move to the 4T's.

If that was the case then the 2T is set to make a massive come back once DFI is in production. Asfaras4T'sbeing more tractable and easier to ride etc. Ridden a KTM300 lately?

As far as 4T's being safer to ride. Total contradiction! They can't be faster whilst being safer to ride Tongue
That IS alot of it.
However, every other industry has 2 strokes that burn cleaner than 4s and pass CARB requirement with flying colors.

4 strokes are huge disadvantage with weight and size in other industries.
3/21/2015 10:19am
When I grew up every kid had a dirt bike.

Now zero kids have dirt bikes (in comparison)
Haha, those numbers don't lie.
And get this.. with the cost then, local racer kids had 4-5..... per year.

We always got 2 in a crate.
Lots rode their 60s and 80s 100s and 125s to school.

There were multiple full gates for each class.

3/21/2015 10:24am
seth505 wrote:
Who wants to buy this so I can lose a bunch of money and buy another brand new one (pretty much same bike) just so I...
Who wants to buy this so I can lose a bunch of money and buy another brand new one (pretty much same bike) just so I can make a point? Silly

What is the Forest Circus sticker and what does it say?

I gotta get some.
seth505
Posts
10210
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA, USA
3/21/2015 10:29am
What is the Forest Circus sticker and what does it say?

I gotta get some.
It's my group of thug friends hahaa. It is a group a friend made up "boneheads". The bottom of the logo says ministers of mayhem.

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