Tell me, Is one a bad person for having no faith in god(s)?

the_wood109
Posts
3008
Joined
7/6/2008
Location
Edgewater, FL, USA
10/8/2014 2:14pm
plowboy wrote:
I consider myself a Christian. I do not consider myself religious. I'm extremely jaded with "organised" religions. They have agendas aimed at self promotion with bottom...
I consider myself a Christian. I do not consider myself religious. I'm extremely jaded with "organised" religions. They have agendas aimed at self promotion with bottom lines based on profit. The message of Jesus is not a bad way to live ones life. Having a constant companion to turn to is comforting to me. My beliefs don't require me to hate others with different beliefs. I am responsible for myself...you got your own deal. I'm a big proponent of "freedom of/from religion".
PalerBlue wrote:
That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. If everyone tried to live by the [u]new[/u] testament's moral guidance the world would be a...
That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. If everyone tried to live by the new testament's moral guidance the world would be a very different place - a very peaceful place.
Except for the eternal torture for people that don't believe it.
jeffro503
Posts
27635
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
10/8/2014 2:33pm
Can I ask a serious question here?

What if someone believed / hoped there was a higher existence.........but didn't believe in the bible? If that person believed that the bible was all written by man and under "their perception " of what / who God is?

What if a person was to think that the bible isn't " vast ' enough to explain all the wonders in the universe? Or life on other planets?

The bible ( to me anyways )......puts human beings as the center of the universe and everything revolves around them. To me this has always sounded extremely selfish and extremely arrogant.

This may sound weird.......but if God exists , I would think that the bible is a slight insult to him and his entire creation. The bible ( since it was written by man ) only focuses on Human beings on THIS planet.

But that's not the only strange thing about it........not everyone on this planet believes in one God. What about Buddha , Islam and other Gods which are worshiped by other ethnic groups around the world?

Each religion thinks the other ones are crazy. From the outside looking in.........they all seem a bit crazy.
10/8/2014 2:41pm Edited Date/Time 10/8/2014 2:41pm
motosmith wrote:
I laugh at stupid people that think the church is trying to take their money. A person could go to church every Sunday of their life...
I laugh at stupid people that think the church is trying to take their money. A person could go to church every Sunday of their life and never be required to give the church one cent.
Church recieves tax money here, everybody that pays taxes pays for the church.
the_wood109
Posts
3008
Joined
7/6/2008
Location
Edgewater, FL, USA
10/8/2014 2:59pm
The only question I would ask about that type of god, jeffro, is : What makes that person believe that god exists? In my earlier post, I mention there are people that believe god simply created the universe via the big bang and doesn't interact with reality. If that is the case, first off, there wouldn't be any way to verify it's existence. Secondly, if it didn't interact with our reality, it's functionally useless to us. Everything would be just taking a natural course, so there is no point in worrying about it.

The same can be said if we were just brains in a vat. We are still forced to deal with our reality on realities terms. If it ultimately is impossible for us to understand that's what we are, the most beneficial thing we can do is learn as much as possible about the reality we live in. As of now, the best method we have is science.

The Shop

PressPassP
Posts
3329
Joined
3/3/2010
Location
Ipswich, GB
10/8/2014 4:07pm
The cult of death in religion can be disturbing either in Christian or Muslim faith for example,being in a position of loving someone while in a certain state of fear which leads to the promise of an afterlife,or there are those who embrace death and openly say "We love death more than you love life" and are 100% convinced they're right about it and will even bet on it by strapping bombs to themselves,they literally cannot wait for death and destruction to engulf the world

Atheists tend to look at religion from a rational standpoint while the members of religion tend to look at it from an emotional standpoint.We live in the age of information, the age of space exploration and artificial intelligence. But its all part of God's plan no?

Personally I believe religion is man made,much of it has been used throughout history to control people,manipulate and extract money off them.The Catholic Church comes to mind,marketing Guilt,sin,fear,wealth and land in exchange for promise of going to heaven

If you look into it's history it's incredible how it's become the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence and how the 3 city states of the Vatican city,The (inner) City of London and the District of Columbia make up the Hidden Empire
SF45
Posts
438
Joined
5/7/2013
Location
Bay Area, CA, USA
10/8/2014 5:02pm
We're all bad people.
Disagree, I think people are inherently good. Self interested of course, but on the whole more good than bad. See? This is more crap religion tells people. Tells people they're not worthy, they suck, they're flawed and they need to beg for forgiveness for being born. Bunch of crap in my opinion.
borg
Posts
6918
Joined
12/7/2009
Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
10/8/2014 6:36pm
jeffro503 wrote:
Can I ask a serious question here? What if someone believed / hoped there was a higher existence.........but didn't believe in the bible? If that person...
Can I ask a serious question here?

What if someone believed / hoped there was a higher existence.........but didn't believe in the bible? If that person believed that the bible was all written by man and under "their perception " of what / who God is?

What if a person was to think that the bible isn't " vast ' enough to explain all the wonders in the universe? Or life on other planets?

The bible ( to me anyways )......puts human beings as the center of the universe and everything revolves around them. To me this has always sounded extremely selfish and extremely arrogant.

This may sound weird.......but if God exists , I would think that the bible is a slight insult to him and his entire creation. The bible ( since it was written by man ) only focuses on Human beings on THIS planet.

But that's not the only strange thing about it........not everyone on this planet believes in one God. What about Buddha , Islam and other Gods which are worshiped by other ethnic groups around the world?

Each religion thinks the other ones are crazy. From the outside looking in.........they all seem a bit crazy.
Each religion thinks the other ones are crazy. From the outside looking in.........they all seem a bit crazy.

Chris Hitchens once asked a Christian if other religions were valid and he said no. (I'm paraphrasing). Hitchens said then you are an atheist with regards to all other religions but yours. He agreed. Hitchens said me too, I just have one more than you.

I'll try to find the video.

Anyway, yours is an interesting question. You also make a couple of good points with regards to the bible actually being the word of God. I'm pretty sure it isn't. So, on the question of creation, you can either believe that a higher existence created the universe or you can wait for science to give you a satisfactory explanation. I doubt you will live that long.

As long as you stay away from the man made religions the higher existence theory makes it dead simple. You're done, move on. As for science, I am not willing to go through the years of studying theoretical astrophysics to keep them honest. I've heard "experts" in just about every thing I know about and many of them are just plain full of shit.

My advice is to go with the higher existence if you have to do one or the other. Personally, I don't feel compelled to hitch my wagon to any human's theories about creation. It wouldn't change my life one bit either way. Just something to wonder about besides how the Dodgers let the goddam Cards beat em.
CR250Rider
Posts
6706
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Moses Lake, WA, USA
10/8/2014 7:40pm
plowboy wrote:
I consider myself a Christian. I do not consider myself religious. I'm extremely jaded with "organised" religions. They have agendas aimed at self promotion with bottom...
I consider myself a Christian. I do not consider myself religious. I'm extremely jaded with "organised" religions. They have agendas aimed at self promotion with bottom lines based on profit. The message of Jesus is not a bad way to live ones life. Having a constant companion to turn to is comforting to me. My beliefs don't require me to hate others with different beliefs. I am responsible for myself...you got your own deal. I'm a big proponent of "freedom of/from religion".
PalerBlue wrote:
That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. If everyone tried to live by the [u]new[/u] testament's moral guidance the world would be a...
That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. If everyone tried to live by the new testament's moral guidance the world would be a very different place - a very peaceful place.
Except for the eternal torture for people that don't believe it.
You don't believe in hell (or religion) do so why do you care?
TDeath21
Posts
6515
Joined
2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
10/8/2014 8:01pm
I have never and will never judge a person based on their religion or lack thereof. To me, it's about their character. Being judgmental toward a person based on what they believe or where they go or don't go on Sunday is ridiculous.
10/9/2014 6:52am
S.Loyer wrote:
Been watching a lot of shows lately and have fought with this my whole life and by no means is this a stab at Christianity because...
Been watching a lot of shows lately and have fought with this my whole life and by no means is this a stab at Christianity because in the good old US of A its propriety to one to assume thats what I am talking about it. But how can, in any religion, a man who does no wrong, who lives a life of good of deeds and fulfillment without needing jesus/whatever else be weak?

How does that make him a bad person?
Why should one be condemned to hell for it?
Why should one who does so much good in life be tormented for not believing in a god during his life, why doing so much good?

Religion is so messed up to me, all of it but, I love hearing other peoples thoughts on, " Why such a person, who does so much good in life, is bad for not believing in whatever"?

If you put your little envelope in the offering tray every week then you will be saved, but just being a good person and living right wont get you anywhere.Blush
jeffro503
Posts
27635
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
10/9/2014 11:56am
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion such as Christianity , Islam , Buddhism , ect.......kind of fascinates me.

Astronomy is a huge passion of mine as well. ( the most fascinating in fact ) It is mind blowing once a person first starts to understand how vast not only this galaxy is , but the entire universe. It's something that people 2000yrs ago didn't understand. I do find it incredible that every religion puts earth and it's people in the center of it all......and God made us in his image....basically saying , he put all his best creations on this one planet........there is nothing else out there.

It makes me chuckle a little inside when people say " If there is life on other planets....how come we haven't seen it? ". That is a lack of understanding the vastness of this galaxy and more importantly......the universe.

Out of the 300 billion stars in just this galaxy ( the milky way )........the closet sun to our sun........is 4 light years away. That's the closet one. never mind trying to see anything past that right now.

I once read a science article where a guy said......" You know how big the earth is.......now imagine it being 1 billion times this size "..........." Now pretend you walked outside your house for the very first time.....took a look around.....and proclaimed that you are the only one living on this planet.......and the entire planet was made for you and you alone ".

Because you can't see your next closet neighbor ( lack of understanding ).........does that mean it's not possible any other planet has life?

Here is another interesting fact. The Milkyway galaxy is also known to be a "young galaxy ". There are other galaxies out there that were formed a few billion years before ours. Meaning life on those other planets could be 1 - 2 billion years ahead of us. Makes you wonder what type of life could be living there?

These are only a few of the things that got me interested in Astrology. It's beyond fascinating for me. And one of the reasons why I haven't tried to find the answers to these questions in a book that was originally written 2000yrs ago.

It all goes back to.....exactly how special are we? " One grain of sand on an entire beech........is special compared to the rest? "That is basically the same comparison when we say " Earth is the only life out there ".

Crazy if you sit back and think about it.
308
Posts
3305
Joined
10/18/2010
Location
Des Moines, IA, USA
10/9/2014 12:49pm Edited Date/Time 10/9/2014 1:57pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion...
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion such as Christianity , Islam , Buddhism , ect.......kind of fascinates me.

Astronomy is a huge passion of mine as well. ( the most fascinating in fact ) It is mind blowing once a person first starts to understand how vast not only this galaxy is , but the entire universe. It's something that people 2000yrs ago didn't understand. I do find it incredible that every religion puts earth and it's people in the center of it all......and God made us in his image....basically saying , he put all his best creations on this one planet........there is nothing else out there.

It makes me chuckle a little inside when people say " If there is life on other planets....how come we haven't seen it? ". That is a lack of understanding the vastness of this galaxy and more importantly......the universe.

Out of the 300 billion stars in just this galaxy ( the milky way )........the closet sun to our sun........is 4 light years away. That's the closet one. never mind trying to see anything past that right now.

I once read a science article where a guy said......" You know how big the earth is.......now imagine it being 1 billion times this size "..........." Now pretend you walked outside your house for the very first time.....took a look around.....and proclaimed that you are the only one living on this planet.......and the entire planet was made for you and you alone ".

Because you can't see your next closet neighbor ( lack of understanding ).........does that mean it's not possible any other planet has life?

Here is another interesting fact. The Milkyway galaxy is also known to be a "young galaxy ". There are other galaxies out there that were formed a few billion years before ours. Meaning life on those other planets could be 1 - 2 billion years ahead of us. Makes you wonder what type of life could be living there?

These are only a few of the things that got me interested in Astrology. It's beyond fascinating for me. And one of the reasons why I haven't tried to find the answers to these questions in a book that was originally written 2000yrs ago.

It all goes back to.....exactly how special are we? " One grain of sand on an entire beech........is special compared to the rest? "That is basically the same comparison when we say " Earth is the only life out there ".

Crazy if you sit back and think about it.
Ever been to an observatory, Jeff?

The Drake Municipal Observatory is about 5 blocks from my place. They have a Public Night Series every friday running September through October. I've been too busy or just spaced it off for the last 5 weeks but the lady and I WILL be attending tomorrow night.

Description from their website:
"Drake Astronomy Lecturer Herbert Schwartz gives a short illustrated presentation at the observatory. After each lecture, attendees have the opportunity to observe celestial objects through the observatory’s refracting telescope and reflecting telescopes."

October 10: The Women of Astronomy
The Computers of Harvard. Draper’s Haram, putting the stars in order, finding little green men, and discovering the Dark Side.
Sunhouse
Posts
3670
Joined
3/2/2009
Location
NO
10/9/2014 1:58pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion...
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion such as Christianity , Islam , Buddhism , ect.......kind of fascinates me.

Astronomy is a huge passion of mine as well. ( the most fascinating in fact ) It is mind blowing once a person first starts to understand how vast not only this galaxy is , but the entire universe. It's something that people 2000yrs ago didn't understand. I do find it incredible that every religion puts earth and it's people in the center of it all......and God made us in his image....basically saying , he put all his best creations on this one planet........there is nothing else out there.

It makes me chuckle a little inside when people say " If there is life on other planets....how come we haven't seen it? ". That is a lack of understanding the vastness of this galaxy and more importantly......the universe.

Out of the 300 billion stars in just this galaxy ( the milky way )........the closet sun to our sun........is 4 light years away. That's the closet one. never mind trying to see anything past that right now.

I once read a science article where a guy said......" You know how big the earth is.......now imagine it being 1 billion times this size "..........." Now pretend you walked outside your house for the very first time.....took a look around.....and proclaimed that you are the only one living on this planet.......and the entire planet was made for you and you alone ".

Because you can't see your next closet neighbor ( lack of understanding ).........does that mean it's not possible any other planet has life?

Here is another interesting fact. The Milkyway galaxy is also known to be a "young galaxy ". There are other galaxies out there that were formed a few billion years before ours. Meaning life on those other planets could be 1 - 2 billion years ahead of us. Makes you wonder what type of life could be living there?

These are only a few of the things that got me interested in Astrology. It's beyond fascinating for me. And one of the reasons why I haven't tried to find the answers to these questions in a book that was originally written 2000yrs ago.

It all goes back to.....exactly how special are we? " One grain of sand on an entire beech........is special compared to the rest? "That is basically the same comparison when we say " Earth is the only life out there ".

Crazy if you sit back and think about it.
It is very fascinating indeed. At age 8 or 9 my friends were watching cartoons, and I was watching Carl Sagan´s "Cosmos". I didn´t understand half of it, but what I understood blew my mind. I learned a great deal of both science and English from that show. To this day I still watch it from time to time. And to think how far science has come in those 30-35 years!

To quote a scientist Richard Dawkins talked to: "Science is interesting, and if you don´t think so, you can fuck off!"
Really, just understanding the basic science they put forward, just the ideas they work with are mind blowing. Bringing a God or Gods into it just seems juvenile and medieval after reading about something as bizarre and big as for example the CERN laboratory.

This is my all time favourite Carl Sagan moment:

https://youtu.be/o8GA2w-qrcg
jeffro503
Posts
27635
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
10/9/2014 5:37pm
308.....No i haven't ever been to a real Observatory......but would love to! If I remember right they had one in the Seattle area , which means I should look them up. Only had the pleasure of looking through some pretty large telescopes. One guy that knew my dad pretty well back in the day got into it and he actually built his own. That thing was pretty damn wicked. But it's been about 25yrs since I've looked through one that size. When you end up getting back from the Drake observatory....please come back and tell me what it was like. Even if you want to shoot me a PM , that would be fine too. Really interested in hearing what it was like.

Sunhouse.......Oh man! yep Carl Sagan is THE man when we talk about bringing Astrology into the homes for all of us. He put things out there so as just about anyone could understand most of it , and had a really cool way of describing things. The new version of Cosmos with Neil DeGrasse Tyson is really amazing too. But doesn't seem to focus as much on the stars as much as Carl did. He talks a lot about stuff right here on earth.....but still very amazing show. I try to catch every show from both Carl and Neil when they come on.
jeffro503
Posts
27635
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
10/9/2014 5:45pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion...
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion such as Christianity , Islam , Buddhism , ect.......kind of fascinates me.

Astronomy is a huge passion of mine as well. ( the most fascinating in fact ) It is mind blowing once a person first starts to understand how vast not only this galaxy is , but the entire universe. It's something that people 2000yrs ago didn't understand. I do find it incredible that every religion puts earth and it's people in the center of it all......and God made us in his image....basically saying , he put all his best creations on this one planet........there is nothing else out there.

It makes me chuckle a little inside when people say " If there is life on other planets....how come we haven't seen it? ". That is a lack of understanding the vastness of this galaxy and more importantly......the universe.

Out of the 300 billion stars in just this galaxy ( the milky way )........the closet sun to our sun........is 4 light years away. That's the closet one. never mind trying to see anything past that right now.

I once read a science article where a guy said......" You know how big the earth is.......now imagine it being 1 billion times this size "..........." Now pretend you walked outside your house for the very first time.....took a look around.....and proclaimed that you are the only one living on this planet.......and the entire planet was made for you and you alone ".

Because you can't see your next closet neighbor ( lack of understanding ).........does that mean it's not possible any other planet has life?

Here is another interesting fact. The Milkyway galaxy is also known to be a "young galaxy ". There are other galaxies out there that were formed a few billion years before ours. Meaning life on those other planets could be 1 - 2 billion years ahead of us. Makes you wonder what type of life could be living there?

These are only a few of the things that got me interested in Astrology. It's beyond fascinating for me. And one of the reasons why I haven't tried to find the answers to these questions in a book that was originally written 2000yrs ago.

It all goes back to.....exactly how special are we? " One grain of sand on an entire beech........is special compared to the rest? "That is basically the same comparison when we say " Earth is the only life out there ".

Crazy if you sit back and think about it.
Sunhouse wrote:
It is very fascinating indeed. At age 8 or 9 my friends were watching cartoons, and I was watching Carl Sagan´s "Cosmos". I didn´t understand half...
It is very fascinating indeed. At age 8 or 9 my friends were watching cartoons, and I was watching Carl Sagan´s "Cosmos". I didn´t understand half of it, but what I understood blew my mind. I learned a great deal of both science and English from that show. To this day I still watch it from time to time. And to think how far science has come in those 30-35 years!

To quote a scientist Richard Dawkins talked to: "Science is interesting, and if you don´t think so, you can fuck off!"
Really, just understanding the basic science they put forward, just the ideas they work with are mind blowing. Bringing a God or Gods into it just seems juvenile and medieval after reading about something as bizarre and big as for example the CERN laboratory.

This is my all time favourite Carl Sagan moment:

https://youtu.be/o8GA2w-qrcg
WOW! Thanks so much for posting that! Now that I watched it....I remember that episode when I was like 10yrs old! I had not seen it since! Thanks so much for putting that up!
jeffro503
Posts
27635
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR, USA
10/9/2014 7:27pm
It took me a littl while to locate this interview , but it is really cool listening to what Carl has to say in this video . I started it at about the 6:10 mark where it really gets deep into what this thread is about. Btw....rip Carl.

PalerBlue
Posts
719
Joined
3/28/2014
Location
Essex, GB
10/10/2014 2:39am
PalerBlue wrote:
That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. If everyone tried to live by the [u]new[/u] testament's moral guidance the world would be a...
That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. If everyone tried to live by the new testament's moral guidance the world would be a very different place - a very peaceful place.
Except for the eternal torture for people that don't believe it.
CR250Rider wrote:
You don't believe in hell (or religion) do so why do you care?
TWO sentences and he manages to mis-read it!

Wood - must try harder!
Sunhouse
Posts
3670
Joined
3/2/2009
Location
NO
10/10/2014 5:46am
jeffro503 wrote:
308.....No i haven't ever been to a real Observatory......but would love to! If I remember right they had one in the Seattle area , which means...
308.....No i haven't ever been to a real Observatory......but would love to! If I remember right they had one in the Seattle area , which means I should look them up. Only had the pleasure of looking through some pretty large telescopes. One guy that knew my dad pretty well back in the day got into it and he actually built his own. That thing was pretty damn wicked. But it's been about 25yrs since I've looked through one that size. When you end up getting back from the Drake observatory....please come back and tell me what it was like. Even if you want to shoot me a PM , that would be fine too. Really interested in hearing what it was like.

Sunhouse.......Oh man! yep Carl Sagan is THE man when we talk about bringing Astrology into the homes for all of us. He put things out there so as just about anyone could understand most of it , and had a really cool way of describing things. The new version of Cosmos with Neil DeGrasse Tyson is really amazing too. But doesn't seem to focus as much on the stars as much as Carl did. He talks a lot about stuff right here on earth.....but still very amazing show. I try to catch every show from both Carl and Neil when they come on.
Yeah, Neil is kind of a new Sagan to me. He is so fascinated by the stuff he teaches that it´s a pleasure just to sit and listen to him ramble on as he gets more and more excited.
I love his hypothesis of " a fascinatingly disturbing thought"
https://youtu.be/vUHM-XdYJQE
IWreckALot
Posts
8677
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX, USA
10/10/2014 5:50am
Except for the eternal torture for people that don't believe it.
CR250Rider wrote:
You don't believe in hell (or religion) do so why do you care?
PalerBlue wrote:
TWO sentences and he manages to mis-read it!

Wood - must try harder!
Some people don't like religion topics but can't seem to keep their $.02 to themselves. So they throw out a misleading $.02. . . Just ignore it.
Sunhouse
Posts
3670
Joined
3/2/2009
Location
NO
10/10/2014 5:59am
Oh, and Jeffro, I agree with you on Tyson not focusing on the stars as much as Sagan in his show. But I think he has realized people today are lacking basic scientific knowledge. Sagan is simply too deep for the average person who isn´t interested in science at all.
Sorry for bombing this thread with videos, but I like Tyson`s take on space and NASA in this compilation. Maybe he has realized that space research isn´t what it was back when Sagan was doing Cosmos, and that he is trying to first bring back the funds so they can actually get somewhere:
https://youtu.be/pUbOjZWjTLU
IWreckALot
Posts
8677
Joined
3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX, USA
10/10/2014 6:01am
jeffro503 wrote:
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion...
I was hoping that this thread would of taken off better. I've always felt passionate about the discussion. Reading all the different principles in each religion such as Christianity , Islam , Buddhism , ect.......kind of fascinates me.

Astronomy is a huge passion of mine as well. ( the most fascinating in fact ) It is mind blowing once a person first starts to understand how vast not only this galaxy is , but the entire universe. It's something that people 2000yrs ago didn't understand. I do find it incredible that every religion puts earth and it's people in the center of it all......and God made us in his image....basically saying , he put all his best creations on this one planet........there is nothing else out there.

It makes me chuckle a little inside when people say " If there is life on other planets....how come we haven't seen it? ". That is a lack of understanding the vastness of this galaxy and more importantly......the universe.

Out of the 300 billion stars in just this galaxy ( the milky way )........the closet sun to our sun........is 4 light years away. That's the closet one. never mind trying to see anything past that right now.

I once read a science article where a guy said......" You know how big the earth is.......now imagine it being 1 billion times this size "..........." Now pretend you walked outside your house for the very first time.....took a look around.....and proclaimed that you are the only one living on this planet.......and the entire planet was made for you and you alone ".

Because you can't see your next closet neighbor ( lack of understanding ).........does that mean it's not possible any other planet has life?

Here is another interesting fact. The Milkyway galaxy is also known to be a "young galaxy ". There are other galaxies out there that were formed a few billion years before ours. Meaning life on those other planets could be 1 - 2 billion years ahead of us. Makes you wonder what type of life could be living there?

These are only a few of the things that got me interested in Astrology. It's beyond fascinating for me. And one of the reasons why I haven't tried to find the answers to these questions in a book that was originally written 2000yrs ago.

It all goes back to.....exactly how special are we? " One grain of sand on an entire beech........is special compared to the rest? "That is basically the same comparison when we say " Earth is the only life out there ".

Crazy if you sit back and think about it.
The bible actually references animals that don't necessarily exist today. There are only a couple of creatures but it does reference them.

I won't argue astronomy with you because it's not something that I've studied past grade school. But, the Bible does say that man was created in God's image. I do believe that. Even if there is life on other planets, so far they haven't created the technology or figured a way to find us. So if there is life on another planet, so far, the Bible is accurate that Man is the dominant species.
burn1986
Posts
12246
Joined
4/16/2010
Location
bossier city, LA, USA
10/10/2014 10:33am
I realize you may not be an atheist, but it sounds like you're getting there. Apologies ahead of time if this seems imposing. [b]How does that...
I realize you may not be an atheist, but it sounds like you're getting there. Apologies ahead of time if this seems imposing.

How does that make him a bad person?

That lack of a belief certainly does not make anyone a bad person. If a christian tells you that you are going to hell because you don't believe in a god, ask for evidence to show that statement is true. If you come out as an atheist, you will be asking that question quite a bit, and you will see the same answers repeatedly. They have no evidence of that claim. There is not a single shred of it that can be objectively verified. Any alleged evidence is contained in the bible and in poorly constructed apologist philosophical nonsense.

Why should one be condemned to hell for it?

You will start to notice people making excuses for god, simply so they can maintain their moral integrity. See Harry's response. "God wouldn't condemn you to hell, you are doing that to yourself." It's a built in guilt trip that is a foundational property of religion. Learn the arguments and rebuttals because you'll hear christians say the same thing repeatedly. The argument from morality is a great place to start with this question, and Harry's response brings up a few questions of their own. First of all, saying that your moral standard doesn't matter to god isn't an answer to the question. You are asking, specifically, if that person believes that a person that doesn't believe in go should be sent to hell. It's a moral question. Is sending somebody to hell for not believing a fitting punishment? Ask about the fact that by Christian law, you could go around killing and raping people your entire life and if you give yourself to jesus just before you die, you go to heaven. Is that a morally just scenario? Is it true? What is the method you go about determining truth? Christians love to act like they have some monopoly on morality, but if you understand religion and ask the right questions, you will find that they are morally compromised. This is not to say that they are bad people, just that they generally don't have a clear and honest view on morality.

Why should one who does so much good in life be tormented for not believing in a god during his life, why doing so much good?

Christianity specifically, is a carrot and stick scenario. God is the stick and jesus is the carrot. It's designed that way to keep people from questioning. "All you have to do is love jesus and god won't condemn you to hell." Gee, Thanks. The fact of the matter is there is no way to verify any of those claims. Understanding how the bible was written gives lots of evidence for this, as well. It all points to being a man made phenomenon that was used in ancient times to offer an explanation for how the world works, and it failed. Religion is a failed science in essence.


A few random:

- Know the definition of Atheism. It is not the claim that no gods exist, it is the rejection of the claim that a god does exist. This is an important distinction because somebody might say " How do you know god didn't just create the universe and now he simply doesn't interact with our reality?" The answer is you don't know that, there is no way you could know that. However, there is no reason to believe that is the truth. When it comes to specific gods, like the christian god, the religion makes claims about how god allegedly effects reality. That means it can be tested. Prayer and miracles have been tested, and the results show that it's roughly a coin flip model. In terms of the tolerances that science uses to claim truth, this is not even in the same universe, and can be rejected as an unproven claim. Also, atheism/theism is a position on belief, not knowledge. Gnosticism and agnosticism are positions on knowledge. So for the example above, you could be an agnostic atheist...you don't know if that type of god exists, but you don't believe that it does (you aren't convinced.) It is also possible to be a gnostic atheist, as twisted as that sounds. I suppose it would involve a bit of delusion.

-Faith is completely useless. The definition of faith is the belief in something, despite the lack of evidence. Religious people love to say things like "it takes more faith to be an atheist." No, it doesn't. Form your beliefs based on evidence that can be objectively verified as being real. This means forming beliefs based on the best evidence that is currently available. If no evidence exists, withhold belief until a claim does have evidence to support. The null hypothesis. Every position is tentative, even knowledge. There are different levels of certainty.

- Logical structures are key. Every existing theist claim thus far is riddled with logical fallacies.

- Be as intellectually honest as possible and know the arguments. Once you recognize the problems with religion, it's much easier to recognize the fact that they are largely playing a dishonest semantic game, whether they realize it or not.

A few resources:

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://talkorigins.org/

Science Saved my Soul. Very deep stuff there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

The Atheist Experience is a big one. Matt Dilahunty and Tracie Harris are pretty awesome. They tackle the moral issues with theology quite often, and long with all of the other inconsistencies with religion. A few of my favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYf96iXK5x0 The moral argument. Caller around 10 min or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lwX8p8jpzs Faith.

Great show, but also check out Matt Dilahunty and why secular morality is superior.

AntiCitizenX

This guy addresses apologetics specifically, but it's useful because apologetic arguments filter down to pretty much all christians. They all use one form or another of apologetic arguments.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AntiCitizenX/videos

Part one, on through the series breaks it down pretty awesomely.

Why I'm no longer a Christian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOmSYHzeoNA&list=PLF2E743D9CFBB2145&ind…






Hey woody, any other religions that you know about, that we should avoid? Or is Christianity the only one?
10/10/2014 11:45am
S.Loyer wrote:
Been watching a lot of shows lately and have fought with this my whole life and by no means is this a stab at Christianity because...
Been watching a lot of shows lately and have fought with this my whole life and by no means is this a stab at Christianity because in the good old US of A its propriety to one to assume thats what I am talking about it. But how can, in any religion, a man who does no wrong, who lives a life of good of deeds and fulfillment without needing jesus/whatever else be weak?

How does that make him a bad person?
Why should one be condemned to hell for it?
Why should one who does so much good in life be tormented for not believing in a god during his life, why doing so much good?

Religion is so messed up to me, all of it but, I love hearing other peoples thoughts on, " Why such a person, who does so much good in life, is bad for not believing in whatever"?

You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity is.

I can recommend some good books if you'd like that kind of go between those lines of fundamentalism and give a different, much more acceptable view of belief in God.
tvo314
Posts
776
Joined
5/9/2009
Location
USA
10/10/2014 1:09pm Edited Date/Time 10/10/2014 1:12pm
You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt...
You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity is.

I can recommend some good books if you'd like that kind of go between those lines of fundamentalism and give a different, much more acceptable view of belief in God.
What do you mean by, "Atheist are often just as fundamentalist as many theists"? Atheist's complete absence of a dogma nullifies your view. And how can you begin to claim that " atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity"? Do you seriously believe that?
10/10/2014 1:39pm Edited Date/Time 10/10/2014 1:41pm
You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt...
You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity is.

I can recommend some good books if you'd like that kind of go between those lines of fundamentalism and give a different, much more acceptable view of belief in God.
tvo314 wrote:
What do you mean by, "Atheist are often just as fundamentalist as many theists"? Atheist's complete absence of a dogma nullifies your view. And how can...
What do you mean by, "Atheist are often just as fundamentalist as many theists"? Atheist's complete absence of a dogma nullifies your view. And how can you begin to claim that " atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity"? Do you seriously believe that?
Of course I believe that. What I mean when I say that atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists is that atheism is in direct relation and response to theism, hence a fundamentalist outlook.

Atheists have bought into the assumption of materialistic realism and by and large, take a very limited scientific view of the world in which, say, consciousness, is secondary to the stuff that makes up our brains. Consciousness is said to be an epiphenomenon. The atheist must insist that their assumptions be taken for granted, that the material world is all that exists because they need materialistic realism to support the idea of atheism, hence atheism is intellectually bankrupt because it will only allow its own assumptions about the world into the picture.

A great book on this is from noted theoretical physicist , Amit Goswami in The Self-Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World.

In this book, Goswami exposes and challenges the assumptions of the materialistic realist and expounds on the oddities of quantum mechanics which lead to the conclusion that consciousness, and not matter, is the foundation for all of reality. Atheism is built on outdated, Newtonian mechanistic science. Now when these assumptions (such that the material world is all that exists and that matter, and not consciousness, is primary) are challenged, atheists will often become very closed-minded in their views and show off some of the true colors of their fundamentalist outlook.

tvo314
Posts
776
Joined
5/9/2009
Location
USA
10/10/2014 2:09pm
Of course I believe that. What I mean when I say that atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists is that atheism is in...
Of course I believe that. What I mean when I say that atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists is that atheism is in direct relation and response to theism, hence a fundamentalist outlook.

Atheists have bought into the assumption of materialistic realism and by and large, take a very limited scientific view of the world in which, say, consciousness, is secondary to the stuff that makes up our brains. Consciousness is said to be an epiphenomenon. The atheist must insist that their assumptions be taken for granted, that the material world is all that exists because they need materialistic realism to support the idea of atheism, hence atheism is intellectually bankrupt because it will only allow its own assumptions about the world into the picture.

A great book on this is from noted theoretical physicist , Amit Goswami in The Self-Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World.

In this book, Goswami exposes and challenges the assumptions of the materialistic realist and expounds on the oddities of quantum mechanics which lead to the conclusion that consciousness, and not matter, is the foundation for all of reality. Atheism is built on outdated, Newtonian mechanistic science. Now when these assumptions (such that the material world is all that exists and that matter, and not consciousness, is primary) are challenged, atheists will often become very closed-minded in their views and show off some of the true colors of their fundamentalist outlook.

Atheism by its very definition is simply the rejection of a supreme being, creator or whatever you want to call it. There is no doctrine for it to fundamentally follow. I don't blame you for instinctively linking it to science and rather appreciate the assumption, although it's not entirely accurate.

But let's suppose that atheism is inextricably linked to science, your depiction of it, or I guess Amit Goswami's, is severely lacking. Science by it's nature is simply a tool of thought or reason that is not limited to "Newtonian Mechanistic science" or materialistic realism. To confine science in such a way is to miss the whole purpose of it. Science never claims to have all of the answers and is equipped to explore consciousness and other intangible phenomena.

Furthermore, I don't know how you can say that atheists must insist that consciousness is "secondary to the stuff that makes up our brains". So what if atheists deeply explore the meaning of consciousness, does that somehow make us believers in a god? That seems to be quite a leap. I don't see how the recognition of the primacy of consciousness equals theism? Science, and I guess atheism is up for exploring any possibility as long as logic and reason are employed. I just don't buy your main premise.
Kawaboy14
Posts
672
Joined
9/9/2014
Location
Austin, TX, USA
10/11/2014 9:07am
We're all bad people.
Bad......is the absence of good!
Kawaboy14
Posts
672
Joined
9/9/2014
Location
Austin, TX, USA
10/11/2014 9:22am
jeffro503 wrote:
Can I ask a serious question here? What if someone believed / hoped there was a higher existence.........but didn't believe in the bible? If that person...
Can I ask a serious question here?

What if someone believed / hoped there was a higher existence.........but didn't believe in the bible? If that person believed that the bible was all written by man and under "their perception " of what / who God is?

What if a person was to think that the bible isn't " vast ' enough to explain all the wonders in the universe? Or life on other planets?

The bible ( to me anyways )......puts human beings as the center of the universe and everything revolves around them. To me this has always sounded extremely selfish and extremely arrogant.

This may sound weird.......but if God exists , I would think that the bible is a slight insult to him and his entire creation. The bible ( since it was written by man ) only focuses on Human beings on THIS planet.

But that's not the only strange thing about it........not everyone on this planet believes in one God. What about Buddha , Islam and other Gods which are worshiped by other ethnic groups around the world?

Each religion thinks the other ones are crazy. From the outside looking in.........they all seem a bit crazy.
All questions should be directed to God........how do you think he would answer?

The bible is a blueprint for man to be pleasing to God and to lead a happy life as we interact with each other as family members, neighbors and of differant races and beliefs
the_wood109
Posts
3008
Joined
7/6/2008
Location
Edgewater, FL, USA
10/11/2014 9:52am Edited Date/Time 10/11/2014 9:52am
Except for the eternal torture for people that don't believe it.
CR250Rider wrote:
You don't believe in hell (or religion) do so why do you care?
PalerBlue wrote:
TWO sentences and he manages to mis-read it!

Wood - must try harder!
Perhaps you don't realize what you've written....


That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by.

"Pretty sound philosophy?" Nonsense. A sound philosophy would have some basis in reality.

If everyone tried to live by the new testament's moral guidance the world would be a very different place - a very peaceful place.

This is especially bullshit. Jesus was an immoral thug that loved to threaten people with the threat of hell for the pettiest of things like simply not wanting to deal with his preaching.

Also, considering that christians have been following the new testament for quite a while now and still committing immoral acts on behalf of the bible, your argument has no basis. Hence, it was summarized by me mocking the threat of eternal torture. It illustrates in one sentence the hypocrisy of your claim.

@cr250rider

80% of the population in America is a Christian. 60% of the people believe in hell. Actions are a subset of beliefs, so whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. It still has a huge impact on me and everyone else in the country.

@eightbit

You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity is.

One of the major factors that separates atheists from any type of fundamentalism is that most of us base our beliefs on reason and evidence. This means that if evidence comes along to show that our beliefs are wrong, we change them to more accurately represent reality. We accept being wrong. If there were adequate evidence to show that any religion is true, I would accept that god does in fact exist. What I wouldn't do is worship the god. It's an immoral, petty, and vengeful god that is in no way worthy of worship.

@burn

Considering you quoted me multiple times in the other thread and didn't read or understand a single word of it, I really have nothing to say to you. You're delusional, and there is no point in trying to have a conversation with you.
Kawaboy14
Posts
672
Joined
9/9/2014
Location
Austin, TX, USA
10/11/2014 10:22am
CR250Rider wrote:
You don't believe in hell (or religion) do so why do you care?
PalerBlue wrote:
TWO sentences and he manages to mis-read it!

Wood - must try harder!
Perhaps you don't realize what you've written.... [b]That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by. [/b] "Pretty sound philosophy?" Nonsense. A sound philosophy would...
Perhaps you don't realize what you've written....


That's a pretty sound philosophy to live your life by.

"Pretty sound philosophy?" Nonsense. A sound philosophy would have some basis in reality.

If everyone tried to live by the new testament's moral guidance the world would be a very different place - a very peaceful place.

This is especially bullshit. Jesus was an immoral thug that loved to threaten people with the threat of hell for the pettiest of things like simply not wanting to deal with his preaching.

Also, considering that christians have been following the new testament for quite a while now and still committing immoral acts on behalf of the bible, your argument has no basis. Hence, it was summarized by me mocking the threat of eternal torture. It illustrates in one sentence the hypocrisy of your claim.

@cr250rider

80% of the population in America is a Christian. 60% of the people believe in hell. Actions are a subset of beliefs, so whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. It still has a huge impact on me and everyone else in the country.

@eightbit

You're battling religious fundamentalism. Atheists are often just as fundamentalist as many theists in my opinion, and I think atheism is just as much intellectually bankrupt as fundamental Christianity is.

One of the major factors that separates atheists from any type of fundamentalism is that most of us base our beliefs on reason and evidence. This means that if evidence comes along to show that our beliefs are wrong, we change them to more accurately represent reality. We accept being wrong. If there were adequate evidence to show that any religion is true, I would accept that god does in fact exist. What I wouldn't do is worship the god. It's an immoral, petty, and vengeful god that is in no way worthy of worship.

@burn

Considering you quoted me multiple times in the other thread and didn't read or understand a single word of it, I really have nothing to say to you. You're delusional, and there is no point in trying to have a conversation with you.
Jesus never taught the idea that people would be tormented in a fiery hell

Post a reply to: Tell me, Is one a bad person for having no faith in god(s)?

The Latest