Equal Displacement Pro Racing.....Has the time come?

scott_nz 4/12/2014 6:39pm
4/12/2014 6:39pm
interesting results to the first race, teh two strokes domintated last weekend, the four strokes were 1,3 and 4 in race 1,

1 4 MX2 Clout, Luke 35 YZ250F
2 2 MX2 Makeham, Kale 32 KTM250SX
3 3 MX2 Marmont, Ryan 30 RMZ250
4 6 MX2 Wilson, Jay 28 YZ250F
burn1986
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burn1986 4/12/2014 7:37pm
4/12/2014 7:37pm Edited Date/Time 4/12/2014 7:38pm
Oz is completely different than the US in regard to 2-strokes
hillbilly
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hillbilly 4/13/2014 9:19am
4/13/2014 9:19am
hillbilly wrote:
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely. The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t...
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely.

The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t riders are doing sections before the 450 guys get them down.

No way a 2st rider survives the season.
twosmoke30 wrote:
are you F$ckin high?
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX.

Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will let a rider do obstacles from inside with confidence.

The 2str may make more peak horsepower but that is a useless number

Look at the torque curve of the 2 engines and you see the meaningful numbers.

4stroke wins every time,
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OW38B 4/13/2014 9:19am
4/13/2014 9:19am
BobPA wrote:
An engineering degree to work on a simple call engine? Sounds to me like you are being a little biased. Modern four strokes are easy to...
An engineering degree to work on a simple call engine? Sounds to me like you are being a little biased. Modern four strokes are easy to work on....get over it
OW38B wrote:
Bob my friend, Modern four strokes with EFI and such are many things......."easy to work on" is not one of them. Very funny.
BobPA wrote:
I have worked on many, I find them easy. Obviously not as easy as a 2 stroker. But, they are not overly complicated machines. Work on...
I have worked on many, I find them easy. Obviously not as easy as a 2 stroker. But, they are not overly complicated machines.

Work on a new Benz or an Audi....those are complicated
90% of riders are not professional mechanics or have mechanical engineering degrees, so what is easy for you..... is not so much for them.

The Shop

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jeffro503
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jeffro503 4/13/2014 9:28am
4/13/2014 9:28am
jeffro503 wrote:
I think it's time for sure. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.....and both are extremely competitive with one another. Bottom line here is.....the big 4...
I think it's time for sure. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.....and both are extremely competitive with one another.

Bottom line here is.....the big 4 Japan bike companies " want " you to keep buying the 4 strokes.....why?.....because it costs you more money to fix them when they implode......putting more money in their pocket. More money in the bike shops pocket as well since you can't work on most of these new bikes without some engineering degree.

I sometimes wonder if we will ever get to see the 2 strokes back in pro racing? I mean CC to CC.........not a 250cc bike going against a bunch of hopped up 450 4 strokes either.
BobPA wrote:
An engineering degree to work on a simple call engine? Sounds to me like you are being a little biased. Modern four strokes are easy to...
An engineering degree to work on a simple call engine? Sounds to me like you are being a little biased. Modern four strokes are easy to work on....get over it
That was a little sarcastic my friend.

BUT.....the newer 4 strokes with all the EFI and electrical stuff that is attached to them now days makes it harder to work on compared to a 2 stroke. BTW....picked up a newer KXF 2 weeks ago and I love it. Loading up here in a bit to go get some riding in.
OW38B
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OW38B 4/13/2014 10:45am
4/13/2014 10:45am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2014 10:46am
hillbilly wrote:
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely. The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t...
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely.

The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t riders are doing sections before the 450 guys get them down.

No way a 2st rider survives the season.
Crush wrote:
What?!?

Wow
He is from the land of "Jack Daniel's"..........you just need a decoder ring.
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Grizz 4/13/2014 10:55am
4/13/2014 10:55am
I wouldn't race a two stroke.
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OW38B 4/13/2014 11:02am
4/13/2014 11:02am
Grizz wrote:
I wouldn't race a two stroke.
Not everyone has the correct skills to race a two stroke, but it's not your fault.
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Grizz 4/13/2014 11:08am
4/13/2014 11:08am
Grizz wrote:
I wouldn't race a two stroke.
OW38B wrote:
Not everyone has the correct skills to race a two stroke, but it's not your fault.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. I could go faster on my four-stroke with less effort. So why would I ride a two stroke?
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48dirtbikekid
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48dirtbikekid 4/13/2014 11:16am
4/13/2014 11:16am
hillbilly wrote:
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely. The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t...
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely.

The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t riders are doing sections before the 450 guys get them down.

No way a 2st rider survives the season.
twosmoke30 wrote:
are you F$ckin high?
hillbilly wrote:
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX. Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will...
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX.

Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will let a rider do obstacles from inside with confidence.

The 2str may make more peak horsepower but that is a useless number

Look at the torque curve of the 2 engines and you see the meaningful numbers.

4stroke wins every time,
Just stop hillbilly, you are completely wrong and have no recent experience on a SX track on either bike it seems because what you're spewing is so far from the truth. And if you're fishing (which I really hope you are) great job because you got me, but I have a feeling that's not the case...
1
SwapperMX
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SwapperMX 4/13/2014 4:51pm
4/13/2014 4:51pm
Derpin' DJ wrote:
Check Scott_NZ's post. Equal displacement hasn't effected 250F sales in Australia
scott_nz wrote:
but it has effected the number of "factory" rides in australia,
The equal displacement rule hasn't affected the number of factory rides available. The massive scaling back of team race budgets is the only thing that has affected that. Combined with much less support from dealers and aftermarket accessory distributors, race support is very hard to come by these days.
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 4/13/2014 5:19pm
4/13/2014 5:19pm
Grizz wrote:
I wouldn't race a two stroke.
OW38B wrote:
Not everyone has the correct skills to race a two stroke, but it's not your fault.
Grizz wrote:
That's pretty much what I'm saying. I could go faster on my four-stroke with less effort. So why would I ride a two stroke?
I just switched from a 450 to a 250 2t and have gotten faster. Took me about a month of riding to adjust then I started feeling more comfortable on the 2 stroke. I think I was fighting the bike more on the 450. Even though the weight difference isn't huge, it feels huge.

On the topic of allowing cc to cc racing, I'm on board for it. I believe the manufacturers are leaving a big piece of pie on the table by not providing an option to guys who prefer the two stroke. I don't believe it would harm the 4 stroke sales as much as they portray it. I'd be curious to see a revenue impact study showing what they thought a two stroke line would do to a company's bottom line. While the maintenance on a two stroke is cheaper, you have to do it more often.
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BobPA 4/13/2014 5:28pm
4/13/2014 5:28pm
OW38B wrote:
Not everyone has the correct skills to race a two stroke, but it's not your fault.
Grizz wrote:
That's pretty much what I'm saying. I could go faster on my four-stroke with less effort. So why would I ride a two stroke?
IWreckALot wrote:
I just switched from a 450 to a 250 2t and have gotten faster. Took me about a month of riding to adjust then I started...
I just switched from a 450 to a 250 2t and have gotten faster. Took me about a month of riding to adjust then I started feeling more comfortable on the 2 stroke. I think I was fighting the bike more on the 450. Even though the weight difference isn't huge, it feels huge.

On the topic of allowing cc to cc racing, I'm on board for it. I believe the manufacturers are leaving a big piece of pie on the table by not providing an option to guys who prefer the two stroke. I don't believe it would harm the 4 stroke sales as much as they portray it. I'd be curious to see a revenue impact study showing what they thought a two stroke line would do to a company's bottom line. While the maintenance on a two stroke is cheaper, you have to do it more often.
Are you going by lap times or feel?whenever I hop on a two stroke I feel like a super hero on a bike....
cd0583
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cd0583 4/13/2014 5:33pm
4/13/2014 5:33pm
hillbilly wrote:
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely. The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t...
A 2str could not do the rhythm sections that 250 4t do now ,not consistently or safely.

The 4t has predictable power traction ,some 250 4t riders are doing sections before the 450 guys get them down.

No way a 2st rider survives the season.
twosmoke30 wrote:
are you F$ckin high?
hillbilly wrote:
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX. Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will...
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX.

Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will let a rider do obstacles from inside with confidence.

The 2str may make more peak horsepower but that is a useless number

Look at the torque curve of the 2 engines and you see the meaningful numbers.

4stroke wins every time,
250 two stroke has more torque than a 250 4t
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loftyair 4/13/2014 7:19pm
4/13/2014 7:19pm
The 2-stroke is simply the better engine configuration for racing. Have the right amount of cc, correct power curve, and a capable rider, 2-stroke wins every time. More power, less weight, less expensive, more reliability, end of discussion. Remember to re-read second sentence if you think you can argue that. Most are not capable enough is your only way out.
TDeath21
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TDeath21 4/13/2014 7:27pm
4/13/2014 7:27pm
I don't see why not. I do think that would be a huge jump up for the amateurs from Super Mini straight to a 250 two stroke though, and maybe that's why they haven't done that yet. Of course a lot of people would say it's too big of a jump as it is from Super Mini to the 250 four stroke.
Grizz
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Grizz 4/13/2014 10:30pm
4/13/2014 10:30pm
OW38B wrote:
Not everyone has the correct skills to race a two stroke, but it's not your fault.
Grizz wrote:
That's pretty much what I'm saying. I could go faster on my four-stroke with less effort. So why would I ride a two stroke?
IWreckALot wrote:
I just switched from a 450 to a 250 2t and have gotten faster. Took me about a month of riding to adjust then I started...
I just switched from a 450 to a 250 2t and have gotten faster. Took me about a month of riding to adjust then I started feeling more comfortable on the 2 stroke. I think I was fighting the bike more on the 450. Even though the weight difference isn't huge, it feels huge.

On the topic of allowing cc to cc racing, I'm on board for it. I believe the manufacturers are leaving a big piece of pie on the table by not providing an option to guys who prefer the two stroke. I don't believe it would harm the 4 stroke sales as much as they portray it. I'd be curious to see a revenue impact study showing what they thought a two stroke line would do to a company's bottom line. While the maintenance on a two stroke is cheaper, you have to do it more often.
You road more and got faster. Has nothing to do with what bike you were on.

Riding a two stroke feels faster for obvious reasons. Ask James Stewart about that.
TerryK
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TerryK 4/14/2014 6:54am
4/14/2014 6:54am Edited Date/Time 4/14/2014 6:55am
Its all a question of dollars for the factories. After the billions theyve spent developing their 4 stroke lines, what makes you think they would toss it all and start again with two strokes? Sure KTM is doing both, but they never stopped with the 2 stroke line so the cost of retooling is not there.

I love two strokes, but you wont see the big 4 going back that way, not for a very long time.

Pit Row

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tomgreen44
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tomgreen44 4/14/2014 7:02am
4/14/2014 7:02am
Keep them in the 450 class where they belong
hillbilly
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hillbilly 4/14/2014 7:16am
4/14/2014 7:16am Edited Date/Time 4/14/2014 7:17am
twosmoke30 wrote:
are you F$ckin high?
hillbilly wrote:
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX. Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will...
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX.

Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will let a rider do obstacles from inside with confidence.

The 2str may make more peak horsepower but that is a useless number

Look at the torque curve of the 2 engines and you see the meaningful numbers.

4stroke wins every time,
48dirtbikekid wrote:
Just stop hillbilly, you are completely wrong and have no recent experience on a SX track on either bike it seems because what you're spewing is...
Just stop hillbilly, you are completely wrong and have no recent experience on a SX track on either bike it seems because what you're spewing is so far from the truth. And if you're fishing (which I really hope you are) great job because you got me, but I have a feeling that's not the case...
Really?

Funny,because I have a sx track in my yard that would make any pro's mouth water.

I've ridden all kinds of bikes on it and know how easy a 4st is to clear anything i point it at.

I've heard the goat say many times on the show how he could not clear the obstacles today on his 2str.

Is he full of shit also?

And to claim a str makes more torque than a 4 is just wrong,show a dyno run that proves that out.

And I'm not talking peak numbers but off idle .

Tracks have changed to cater to the mussel of the 4str also with takeoff jumps moved closer to corner exit.

At Atlanta there was a double that went across the start,riders were hugging the inside and with 5 ft of run in they cleared it with ease,no way in hell a 2str gets over that from inside.

But,go ahead and attack me on what you perceive as a old drunk guy in the mountains,cuz you got nothing else.
crf250pilot
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crf250pilot 4/14/2014 7:27am
4/14/2014 7:27am Edited Date/Time 4/14/2014 7:27am
Grizz wrote:
I wouldn't race a two stroke.
OW38B wrote:
Not everyone has the correct skills to race a two stroke, but it's not your fault.
Grizz wrote:
That's pretty much what I'm saying. I could go faster on my four-stroke with less effort. So why would I ride a two stroke?
2-strokes are easy to win on, just fill it up with race gas, get the holeshot and no one will want to pass you.
TRON
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TRON 4/14/2014 7:32am
4/14/2014 7:32am Edited Date/Time 4/14/2014 7:34am
I've been on on a 250f from 2001 to 2012. For the fun of it, I bought a yz250 in the spring of 2013. I had not even thrown a leg over a smoker since 2001. Went out and rode it in the woods...

The very next week I sold my nearly brand new 2 hour 2012 yz250f and have not looked back.

I spent 12 years on a bike that made me a lazy rider, one that compensated for bad habits, lack of fitness and overall laziness. I saw an immediate speed increase with the 250 smoker. Local tracks I've seen my best lap times. Woods races I've been able to ride harder for longer.

I will not bash 4 strokes, as I would love a 14 yzf. Both the 2 and 4 stroke yamahas are bulletproof. All of my yzfs excepts the 12 had over 150 hours without even so much as a valve adjustment.. always in spec.

My current 12 yz is super light (feeling), extremely quiet, more powerful than a 250f. It has forced me to be in shape, which helps my riding even more. My corner speeds have increased. I still can't ride it indoors yet (haven't completely gotten over lack of engine braking).


I'll stick with the smoker for a while.
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BroFoSho 4/14/2014 8:54am
4/14/2014 8:54am
Don't understand why you race a bike that has an abrupt power curve, is not forgiving if you make a mistake, and has the chance to bog and send you over the bars resulting in broken bones.

Four-strokes are much easier to go faster on, hence why a professional will choose a four-stroke over a two-stroke.
OW38B
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OW38B 4/14/2014 10:39am
4/14/2014 10:39am
BroFoSho wrote:
Don't understand why you race a bike that has an abrupt power curve, is not forgiving if you make a mistake, and has the chance to...
Don't understand why you race a bike that has an abrupt power curve, is not forgiving if you make a mistake, and has the chance to bog and send you over the bars resulting in broken bones.

Four-strokes are much easier to go faster on, hence why a professional will choose a four-stroke over a two-stroke.
Good and valid points Bro.

But the AMA and FIM both say you are clueless!

They have banned some of the 250cc bikes from their 250cc class. They are both ran by guys who think they are very smart and think a 250F is not competitive with a 250cc 2 stroke. That is the current fact as we speak.
AS64
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AS64 4/14/2014 10:51am
4/14/2014 10:51am Edited Date/Time 4/14/2014 11:00am
twosmoke30 wrote:
are you F$ckin high?
hillbilly wrote:
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX. Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will...
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX.

Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will let a rider do obstacles from inside with confidence.

The 2str may make more peak horsepower but that is a useless number

Look at the torque curve of the 2 engines and you see the meaningful numbers.

4stroke wins every time,
cd0583 wrote:
250 two stroke has more torque than a 250 4t
Nailed it.
rcannon
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rcannon 4/14/2014 1:10pm
4/14/2014 1:10pm
I've never seen a dyno chart showing a yz 250 to have less torque, anywhere than a yz 250f.....To be fair, most dyno charts dont display much below 4000 rpm. Are you taking under that range?
Grizz
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Grizz 4/14/2014 1:59pm
4/14/2014 1:59pm
BroFoSho wrote:
Don't understand why you race a bike that has an abrupt power curve, is not forgiving if you make a mistake, and has the chance to...
Don't understand why you race a bike that has an abrupt power curve, is not forgiving if you make a mistake, and has the chance to bog and send you over the bars resulting in broken bones.

Four-strokes are much easier to go faster on, hence why a professional will choose a four-stroke over a two-stroke.
OW38B wrote:
Good and valid points Bro. But the AMA and FIM both say you are clueless! They have banned some of the 250cc bikes from their 250cc...
Good and valid points Bro.

But the AMA and FIM both say you are clueless!

They have banned some of the 250cc bikes from their 250cc class. They are both ran by guys who think they are very smart and think a 250F is not competitive with a 250cc 2 stroke. That is the current fact as we speak.
The 250F wasn't even made to be competitive with a 250 two stroke Laughing It replaced the 125, remember? So the fact that all the pros would still pick a 250F over a more powerful 250 two stroke shows how good the four strokes are. The only reason a pro would line up on a two stroke is for the attention or possible sponsorship. Nobody wants to line up knowing you are on a more difficult to handle bike. It's common sense people.
Bulldog
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Bulldog 4/14/2014 2:44pm
4/14/2014 2:44pm
It works in offroad: GNCC Racing - XC2 Lites (Bikes): 122-250cc 2/4 Strokes

Not in the picture it is about a 50/50 split in engines...

This is from Round 4 in South Carolina yesterday...

hillbilly
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hillbilly 4/14/2014 2:59pm
4/14/2014 2:59pm
hillbilly wrote:
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX. Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will...
Yeah,but not high enuff to think a 2 str is competitive with a 4str in SX.

Even 250cc to 250cc the torque of the 4st will let a rider do obstacles from inside with confidence.

The 2str may make more peak horsepower but that is a useless number

Look at the torque curve of the 2 engines and you see the meaningful numbers.

4stroke wins every time,
cd0583 wrote:
250 two stroke has more torque than a 250 4t
AS64 wrote:
Nailed it.
Nailed what?
hillbilly
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hillbilly 4/14/2014 3:07pm
4/14/2014 3:07pm
rcannon wrote:
I've never seen a dyno chart showing a yz 250 to have less torque, anywhere than a yz 250f.....To be fair, most dyno charts dont display...
I've never seen a dyno chart showing a yz 250 to have less torque, anywhere than a yz 250f.....To be fair, most dyno charts dont display much below 4000 rpm. Are you taking under that range?
Yeah,dynos are misleading. The str may hit barder but that blast is then applied thru the slipping of the clutch as you try to manage wheel spin.

The 4stt is more linear and hooks up with the firing impulses being half or every 2 crank revolutions.

Outdoors the 2st would be very competitive if it is CC equal.

And,in the woods,2st all the way.

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