What if: RV docked 3 places with no red flag

rcm406
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3/3/2013 10:08am
I really dont think it is worth arguing about. Villipoto was faster than james tonight and stewart admitted it in his interview with Jim Holley. Poto...
I really dont think it is worth arguing about. Villipoto was faster than james tonight and stewart admitted it in his interview with Jim Holley. Poto was on a mission and he would of eventually passed Stewart no matter what. Hopefully Stewart can regroup and get a win next weekend at Daytona.
I don't know, I think it would have been a great race. James & RV was racing each other hard and when RV passed James during the flags, James didnt expect it and seemed to throw his game off.
berno929
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3/3/2013 10:08am Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 10:11am
Could Stewart's and Millsaps' crews take the rulebook and the tape to court? He should have been docked after the race... The second pass is arguable but not the first and they didnt do as told by the rulebook as far as I know.
WhKnuckle
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3/3/2013 10:11am
berno929 wrote:
Could Stewart's and Millsaps' crews take the rulebook and the tape to court? He should have been docked after the race... The second pass is arguable...
Could Stewart's and Millsaps' crews take the rulebook and the tape to court? He should have been docked after the race... The second pass is arguable but not the first and they didnt do as told by the rulebook as far as I know.
Naw, they'll say it's a judgement call and that's that. And at the end of the day, Villo was on a mission and there was no way he was going to lose that race, IMO. But I hope the AMA takes him aside and says that's the last grace period he's getting on that kind of stuff. As I said before, if he'd been a privateer who did the same thing twice in one race, the AMA would have DQed him.
Toste
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Fantasy
3/3/2013 10:12am
I like Ryan, and he was, without question, the best last night....but he is a repeat offender of this sort of thing. If no penalty at all comes out of this, that's pretty pathetic.

The Shop

kcadrenalin
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3/3/2013 10:13am
Nothing like a good Internet meltdown to kick off the day.....
DV-67
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3/3/2013 10:14am
So if RV had landed on the downed rider during the first infraction would he have still only been docked three positions?

That is what the AMA is saying.
zook11
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3/3/2013 10:15am
Stewart fans be like..
WhKnuckle
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3/3/2013 10:21am
At the end of the day, there's no harm done, so people shouldn't overreact. But the AMA needs to be very clear about this kind of thing, especially in supercross where the riders never can see beyond the face of the next jump, until they're in the air. When they see a red cross flag anywhere, they should not jump or overtake until that entire section has been cleared and there are no flags of any kind being waved. That's pretty simple. Maybe the AMA hasn't been explicit enough, but I know that thousands of guys race in local races every week and know that's the way it works.

Villo didn't win because of it, Stewart didn't lose because of it, the downed rider wasn't really even hurt apparently and certainly didn't get hurt any worse, but it was a really, really bad move by Villo and the AMA needs to make sure it doesn't happen again.
3/3/2013 10:22am
DV-67 wrote:
So if RV had landed on the downed rider during the first infraction would he have still only been docked three positions? That is what the...
So if RV had landed on the downed rider during the first infraction would he have still only been docked three positions?

That is what the AMA is saying.
No they would have blamed the downed rider for being in RVs way.
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 10:23am
TDeath21 wrote:
No. You guys need to stop and think for a second. The flagger at the front of the triple had his red cross flag displayed clearly...
No. You guys need to stop and think for a second. The flagger at the front of the triple had his red cross flag displayed clearly to the riders. The second flagger with the red cross flag after the triple was just holding it off the side of the track and not really displaying it to the riders. Villopoto saw Barcia trying to make a pass on him, so he waited till after the triple and passed Stewart during the yellow flags, which is legal. The AMA made the right call. If you're pissed about Villopoto's pass, you should also be pissed about Stewart's pass in the previous corner.
I don't know if it is the right call or not, because the rules are so flimsy and only what is in the officials's head seems to matter. Why are Red Cross flags-2 of them-accompanied by a bunch of yellows waving frantically? It is a-ok to jump triples when it is only yellow flags and a-ok to pass! Even RC in the broadcast said you can't pass under yellow.....but that is not true! You can! Make yellows all encompassing......slow down, no jumping, no passing. Make the Red Cross flags the ultimate no no only for when guys are out cold on the track. The guy was starting his bike as they went by and the red cross is out? Also silly to see all those yellows flying simultaneously too. I doubt anyone saw the 2nd Red Cross flag as it was way off to the side. Since they have to roll, that guy should have been out in the middle of the track in front of the guy starting his bike. The red lights allegedly pertain to the triples, not the corner following. To make matters worse Barcia also pulled up on James out of that corner too. Once again, the rules are poorly written, poorly understood, and poorly enforced.
JQ
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3/3/2013 10:26am
Villopoto might have gone down trying to pass Stewart had he not passed him rolling those jumps. There is no way of knowing wht would have happened. Shame it went down this way because it was the best race of the year. Rules are always bent when top guys are involved, money and politics, it's not just the AMA. But of course some are worse than others...
berno929
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3/3/2013 10:29am
Poorly understood? What the hell do they say at the mandatory weekly riders meeting? I thought they had to state those rules weekly...
malachi177
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3/3/2013 10:30am
IDK why you guys are even talking about the pass on stewart. I want to know why they decided to dock him the 3 spots just...
IDK why you guys are even talking about the pass on stewart. I want to know why they decided to dock him the 3 spots just on the restart. Shouldn't it have been 3 spots from his finishing position?
Bingo!!!!
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 10:31am
berno929 wrote:
Could Stewart's and Millsaps' crews take the rulebook and the tape to court? He should have been docked after the race... The second pass is arguable...
Could Stewart's and Millsaps' crews take the rulebook and the tape to court? He should have been docked after the race... The second pass is arguable but not the first and they didnt do as told by the rulebook as far as I know.
They could if the rulebook was at all clear and if in court it couldn't be argued from every possible angle. Technically they were past the 2nd cross flag, plus it would be argued that it was blocked from RV's view and the yellow flags confused it all further. The best shot was the referee seeing it differently. Does anyone want to win a title like that anyway? As I said, even RC didn't know the rules concerning a yellow and passing.
Choppy
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3/3/2013 10:32am


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 10:39am
berno929 wrote:
Poorly understood? What the hell do they say at the mandatory weekly riders meeting? I thought they had to state those rules weekly...
Go read the rulebook. The part that dictates about flags. Then try to find the part about where it is ok to pass after the Red Cross, what the penalties are, how they should be displayed, etc. All you will find is that Red Cross means you roll the jumps and you don't pass over the jumps. It doesn't have a single word regarding penalties, how to handle a restart, where it is ok to pass once by the Red Cross flag etc. All of that is in the referee's head. That is how we get judgement calls like this, because there really is no black and white rule governing it.
Choppy
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3/3/2013 10:42am
I don't blaim RV for doing these things when the AMA won't do anything about it.
It sure does say a lot about the AMA.

How many times has this kid jumped on flashing lights/medic flags and gotten away with it? That's no good AMA.
TDeath21
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3/3/2013 10:43am
Choppy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img] Taken from another post.... How is that OK?


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it was that serious, the flagger needs to be in the middle of the track with his red cross flag. It was stupid to be there anyway, but if it was, the flagger can't be just off the side of the track holding it. He needs to take notes from the guy before the triple and how he displayed his red cross flag.
kongols
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3/3/2013 10:45am
TDeath21 wrote:
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it...
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it was that serious, the flagger needs to be in the middle of the track with his red cross flag. It was stupid to be there anyway, but if it was, the flagger can't be just off the side of the track holding it. He needs to take notes from the guy before the triple and how he displayed his red cross flag.
Laughing Laughing Laughing Holy shit, dude! You just took it to another level.Woohoo
WhKnuckle
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3/3/2013 10:48am
Choppy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img] Taken from another post.... How is that OK?


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
TDeath21 wrote:
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it...
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it was that serious, the flagger needs to be in the middle of the track with his red cross flag. It was stupid to be there anyway, but if it was, the flagger can't be just off the side of the track holding it. He needs to take notes from the guy before the triple and how he displayed his red cross flag.
C'mon, man, Villo screwed up and passed twice in a no passing zone in the same race, and still got to keep the win. That's all there is to it. No harm done, but facts are facts. And imagine if someone with a triple digit number plate would have done that...
dkg
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3/3/2013 10:49am Edited Date/Time 3/3/2013 10:54am
GuyB wrote:
People who think that Monster plays into any decisions don't know the people making the decisions.
My bigger concern is that those making the decisions don't do so consistently or in this race even seem to have a basic understanding of the rule book. For example (taken from the rule book appendix A paragraph A1.d):

d. The Race Director may pronounce the following penalties.
• Warning
• Fine
• Lap deductions or finishing position deductions
• Time and/or point penalties
• Disqualification
• Suspension
• Probation not exceeding 12 months from the date of offence

The initial penalty of docking three spots in the restart is not a penalty which the Race Director is allowed to impose under the rule book. Any argument that doing so consitutes a "time" penalty does not work as the word time means just that, not restart location. Further, all of the above penalties seem to be ones that are imposed after the conclusion of the race. Proper handling of the initial penalty would have been to allow the race to restart in original running order and then impose the penalty. The Race Director is not given (under the rules) discretion to impose penalties other than those specifically stated.

Going on to the second arguable Red Cross flag violation, a strained review of the tapes could remotely conclude that no violation occurred. Is this really the proper message to send to the Riders regarding the respect to be given to a Red Cross flag? The flag was clearly dislayed. The offending Rider had a previous violation IN THE SAME race. Yet it is construed to be no penalty. Since the purpose of the red cross flag is safety to the riders and medical crew (something that would seem to be of paramount importance) perhaps strict interpretation should have been used.

The solution to these issues would probably be to add another subpart to paragraph d, such as:

• Or any other wild idea the Race Director comes up with at the time

GuyB, this post isn't directed at any comment you made even though I quoted your posting, the quotation just semed a good place to start.

As for the handling of these incidents, I'd award an EPIC FAIL.
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 10:50am
http://www.amasupercross.com/rules/pdf/AMA_SupercrossRulebook13_web.pdf

Page 25. You can't pass until past the "area of concern". Usually Red Cross pertains to triples not corners. If rule was black and white, cannot pass at all from the sight of the Red Cross until THROUGH the next corner? That would work. "Area of concern" leaves a judgement call in the riders minds too. Rules need to cover it all from front to back so there is never ever a need for a judgement call. No mention of penalties at all.
prozach
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3/3/2013 10:50am
Choppy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img] Taken from another post.... How is that OK?


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
TDeath21 wrote:
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it...
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it was that serious, the flagger needs to be in the middle of the track with his red cross flag. It was stupid to be there anyway, but if it was, the flagger can't be just off the side of the track holding it. He needs to take notes from the guy before the triple and how he displayed his red cross flag.
WhKnuckle wrote:
C'mon, man, Villo screwed up and passed twice in a no passing zone in the same race, and still got to keep the win. That's all...
C'mon, man, Villo screwed up and passed twice in a no passing zone in the same race, and still got to keep the win. That's all there is to it. No harm done, but facts are facts. And imagine if someone with a triple digit number plate would have done that...
WOW!!! JS is looking right at the flag, RV doesn't even care that there is a down rider and is only concerned about making the pass. Twice in one race. Once last year. Can't blame RV for doing it if he constantly gets away with it. Hopefully he doesn't seriously hurt someone down the road though.
3/3/2013 10:52am
Choppy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img] Taken from another post.... How is that OK?


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
There were yellow flags waving as you can see and the downed rider (who wasn't really downed) is getting back on the bike. Plus, RV didn't actually pass Stewart until the corner which was just passed the rider that was causing the flags. I get how James said RV caught him off guard, that was pretty evident. (James should have protected the inside line) But at the end of the day, I don't think RV did anything technically wrong on this particular situation. Also, Barcia was pushing RV and coming up on his right too. So they were all pushing pretty hard. RV was clearly the fastest guy out there last night and Barcia was fast too. James just didn't look as intense in that race as he got the lead and multiple riders all caught up to him with two of them passing him and making the passes stick.

Now as for how the penalty was handed out prior to the re-start for passing on the red cross, I have no idea.

The person I feel bad for is Milsaps. He's the one who took the biggest hit. That situation (the first penalty assessment) could potentially cost him a championship.
Choppy
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3/3/2013 10:55am
TbonesPop wrote:
There were yellow flags waving as you can see and the downed rider (who wasn't really downed) is getting back on the bike. Plus, RV didn't...
There were yellow flags waving as you can see and the downed rider (who wasn't really downed) is getting back on the bike. Plus, RV didn't actually pass Stewart until the corner which was just passed the rider that was causing the flags. I get how James said RV caught him off guard, that was pretty evident. (James should have protected the inside line) But at the end of the day, I don't think RV did anything technically wrong on this particular situation. Also, Barcia was pushing RV and coming up on his right too. So they were all pushing pretty hard. RV was clearly the fastest guy out there last night and Barcia was fast too. James just didn't look as intense in that race as he got the lead and multiple riders all caught up to him with two of them passing him and making the passes stick.

Now as for how the penalty was handed out prior to the re-start for passing on the red cross, I have no idea.

The person I feel bad for is Milsaps. He's the one who took the biggest hit. That situation (the first penalty assessment) could potentially cost him a championship.
The rule book says you can't pass until after the "point of concern" when dealing with that flag.
2 times in one race.

Same crap last year. It's sad, but why follow any of the rules. Just play dumb when you break one.
kongols
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3/3/2013 10:57am
Ricky Carmichael ‏@RickyCarmichael
@DavidVuillemin another great example of how the AMAs rule book is grey and a joke
RaceFace
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3/3/2013 10:57am
Choppy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img] Taken from another post.... How is that OK?


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
TDeath21 wrote:
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it...
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it was that serious, the flagger needs to be in the middle of the track with his red cross flag. It was stupid to be there anyway, but if it was, the flagger can't be just off the side of the track holding it. He needs to take notes from the guy before the triple and how he displayed his red cross flag.
Surprising I would agree......and that those that dislike RV disagree. Fact is RV is still behind James here and the Red Cross is just being held way off to the side. RV was very stupid for even attempting to pass in that corner for fear of being penalized, but the photo doesn't make a very good case, unless you are biased. I will agree that he should have probably been docked back to 4th from the first misstep for his final finish. This one is still too grey an area....thanks to the rules as written.
TDeath21
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3/3/2013 10:59am
Choppy wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2013/03/03/image_563479.jpg[/img] Taken from another post.... How is that OK?


Taken from another post.... How is that OK?
TDeath21 wrote:
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it...
This actually proves the point as to why he shouldn't be docked. Look how Stewart perfectly blocks Villopoto's view of the red cross flag. If it was that serious, the flagger needs to be in the middle of the track with his red cross flag. It was stupid to be there anyway, but if it was, the flagger can't be just off the side of the track holding it. He needs to take notes from the guy before the triple and how he displayed his red cross flag.
WhKnuckle wrote:
C'mon, man, Villo screwed up and passed twice in a no passing zone in the same race, and still got to keep the win. That's all...
C'mon, man, Villo screwed up and passed twice in a no passing zone in the same race, and still got to keep the win. That's all there is to it. No harm done, but facts are facts. And imagine if someone with a triple digit number plate would have done that...
He screwed up the first time and got docked for it. He was lucky it was red flagged. The second one is way too much of a gray area to hand out a penalty in my opinion.
Motoxdoc
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3/3/2013 11:00am
Not to stir the pot or anything.....well maybe a little. But this reminds me of when Poto "launched" his bike at J-law during an outdoor practice and J-Law was assessed a gate-pick penalty and put on double secret probation.....and nothing for Poto!
zook11
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3/3/2013 11:01am
@DavidVuillemin: You can pass on a yellow. RV pass is questionable but he passed JS later on during the race so the yellow incident is irrelevant IMO

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