Is #800 overtrained?

Scooby
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Scooby 9/13/2011 5:22pm
9/13/2011 5:22pm
Why would Alessi's oil boil at 15 minutes, when Kid Roczen and A.C. and Herlings do just fine? Works parts?
Cygnus
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Cygnus 9/13/2011 5:27pm
9/13/2011 5:27pm
Scooby wrote:
Why would Alessi's oil boil at 15 minutes, when Kid Roczen and A.C. and Herlings do just fine? Works parts?
Anyone remember the last time Mike was on KTM and they sent him the euro shock?
Track and Trail 9/13/2011 5:29pm
9/13/2011 5:29pm
Some say once you're a winner you don't forget how to win. Alessi's a winner - he'll make it happen again regardless of who he's ridden for, GFs, Dads, or whatever's going on. Go 800!
JOHN CHOATE
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JOHN CHOATE 9/13/2011 5:37pm
9/13/2011 5:37pm
I'd bet that if Mike is reading this thread, he's laughing his ass off.

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sec114
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sec114 9/13/2011 5:39pm
9/13/2011 5:39pm
good god i hope mike gets back on a suzuki. and his track in northern florida (Hillird) has plenty huckabucks and long track times.
WhKnuckle
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WhKnuckle 9/13/2011 5:46pm
9/13/2011 5:46pm
mxtech1 wrote:
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such...
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such a progressive stack that sometimes nearly all the shock oil will diverge through the stack and cause a pressure difference on the oil flowing through the internal return loop in the shock. This pressure difference creates microscopic bubbles in the shock fluid, also known as cavitation. Cavitation = heat and oil fade because after prolonged use (say towards the end of the moto) the oil starts to lose its viscosity. The nitrogen pressure in the shock bladder compressing the shock oil allows cavitation to occur at a lower temperature then it would as if it were at room temperature. Just like how we can boil water at nearly room temperature if you increase the pressure inside the pot high enough.

3 ways to prevent caviation: cooler oil temperatures, less nitrogen pressure, or an alteration to the shim stack and bypass ports for oil flow. If a rider finds a valve stack that works extremely well up to that point where cavitation occurs, they probably will settle and won't change the shim stack. Likewise with adding more nitrogen pressure to the shock bladder as this will increase the compression on the shim stack. This is why remote resovoirs are popular because more oil volume = greater time to heat up the shock fluid with no change on how the shim stack and internal circuits work.
FGR01 wrote:
Wrong. Increased pressure does not lower the boiling point of a fluid. It raises the boiling point. That is the purpose of a pressure cooker. By...
Wrong.

Increased pressure does not lower the boiling point of a fluid. It raises the boiling point.

That is the purpose of a pressure cooker. By increasing the pressure it allows you to cook at a higher temperature without boiling over.

Same with a radiator cap. By increasing the pressure in the cooling system it allows the coolant to be hotter without boiling over.

Did you ever do the experiment in science class where you put a pot of water in a vacuum chamber? By LOWERING the pressure you can make the water boil at a lower temperature.

Same thing for cooking. water boils at lower temps as the altitude increases (pressure decreases): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_cooking
That's correct. That's why you can't get water hot enough to cook decent dehydrated food when you camp at high altitudes...it boils at too low of a temperature.
Sonny
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Sonny 9/13/2011 7:02pm
9/13/2011 7:02pm
JOHN CHOATE wrote:
I'd bet that if Mike is reading this thread, he's laughing his ass off.
I don't think so. I think he gets annoyed like most people would get. Do you think he doesn't notice that there is a problem? He's an amazing talent that can stay out front on any given day if he gets the longevity in order.
Jwilkey
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Jwilkey 9/13/2011 7:36pm
9/13/2011 7:36pm
mxtech1 wrote:
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such...
With some rider's riding styles and preference on bike setup, the only valve stack that makes them happy doesn't make the shock happy. It takes such a progressive stack that sometimes nearly all the shock oil will diverge through the stack and cause a pressure difference on the oil flowing through the internal return loop in the shock. This pressure difference creates microscopic bubbles in the shock fluid, also known as cavitation. Cavitation = heat and oil fade because after prolonged use (say towards the end of the moto) the oil starts to lose its viscosity. The nitrogen pressure in the shock bladder compressing the shock oil allows cavitation to occur at a lower temperature then it would as if it were at room temperature. Just like how we can boil water at nearly room temperature if you increase the pressure inside the pot high enough.

3 ways to prevent caviation: cooler oil temperatures, less nitrogen pressure, or an alteration to the shim stack and bypass ports for oil flow. If a rider finds a valve stack that works extremely well up to that point where cavitation occurs, they probably will settle and won't change the shim stack. Likewise with adding more nitrogen pressure to the shock bladder as this will increase the compression on the shim stack. This is why remote resovoirs are popular because more oil volume = greater time to heat up the shock fluid with no change on how the shim stack and internal circuits work.
FGR01 wrote:
Wrong. Increased pressure does not lower the boiling point of a fluid. It raises the boiling point. That is the purpose of a pressure cooker. By...
Wrong.

Increased pressure does not lower the boiling point of a fluid. It raises the boiling point.

That is the purpose of a pressure cooker. By increasing the pressure it allows you to cook at a higher temperature without boiling over.

Same with a radiator cap. By increasing the pressure in the cooling system it allows the coolant to be hotter without boiling over.

Did you ever do the experiment in science class where you put a pot of water in a vacuum chamber? By LOWERING the pressure you can make the water boil at a lower temperature.

Same thing for cooking. water boils at lower temps as the altitude increases (pressure decreases): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_altitude_cooking
WhKnuckle wrote:
That's correct. That's why you can't get water hot enough to cook decent dehydrated food when you camp at high altitudes...it boils at too low of...
That's correct. That's why you can't get water hot enough to cook decent dehydrated food when you camp at high altitudes...it boils at too low of a temperature.
I'm late to the table but I will 3rd its wrong on a lot of levels..
Roscoe33
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Roscoe33 9/13/2011 8:25pm
9/13/2011 8:25pm
Scooby wrote:
Why would Alessi's oil boil at 15 minutes, when Kid Roczen and A.C. and Herlings do just fine? Works parts?
There are tons of reasons we can use to speculate why # 800 fades unless you know his bike set-up or have a remote heart rate monitor on him before , during and after the race.

I think he wears his alpinestar gloves too tight and it gives him arm pump.
jmar
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jmar 9/13/2011 8:31pm
9/13/2011 8:31pm
dboivin wrote:
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same...
idunno but he sure sucks in the "huckabucks".....outdoors and indoors. surprised no one commented on every pass on him second moto was thru there. In supercross....same thing. If i was the 800, i would have a private track out my backdoor that had whoops in every straight.
He would never make the season if he were to spend so much time in the whoops.

He's had some shoulder issues.
aFACEdismembered 9/13/2011 10:38pm
9/13/2011 10:38pm
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
That can be put to rest after seeing Cairoli go around Lierop for 40 minutes.
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bullpen58 9/13/2011 10:40pm
9/13/2011 10:40pm
Ing wrote:
Title says it. MA can run at the front for half the moto then fades slowly to 4th or 5th place almost everytime. For the first...
Title says it. MA can run at the front for half the moto then fades slowly to 4th or 5th place almost everytime. For the first half of the race he's actually pulling away and then he seems to "hit the wall". Comments?
Are you saying that navy seals are over-trained? Laughing
gotwings
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gotwings 9/13/2011 11:51pm
9/13/2011 11:51pm
Mike Alessi doesn't think that Mike Alessi is overtrained. Mike Alessi thinks that Mike Alessi has trained Mike Alessi just the right amount.
bullpen58
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bullpen58 9/14/2011 12:36am
9/14/2011 12:36am
gotwings wrote:
Mike Alessi doesn't think that Mike Alessi is overtrained. Mike Alessi thinks that Mike Alessi has trained Mike Alessi just the right amount.
Mike Alessi would approve of your comment if Mike Alessi were to read it to Mike Alessi.
1-forty-8
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1-forty-8 9/14/2011 2:27am
9/14/2011 2:27am
gotwings wrote:
Mike Alessi doesn't think that Mike Alessi is overtrained. Mike Alessi thinks that Mike Alessi has trained Mike Alessi just the right amount.
bullpen58 wrote:
Mike Alessi would approve of your comment if Mike Alessi were to read it to Mike Alessi.
lmao I likes it..

I think 800 just can't take it to that next level like RV and RD and now he's broken mentally, he had it all his own way through out his amature career and expected it to be the same when he went pro but it hasn't gone that way and never will in America I don't think. Dude should go to Australia and race over there for a year, win, build up some confidence and then come back and attack the Nationals.

Just my opinion.
Old Mate
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Old Mate 9/14/2011 3:08am
9/14/2011 3:08am
He came to Australia last year, ran about 8th.
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1-forty-8 9/14/2011 3:13am
9/14/2011 3:13am
Old Mate wrote:
He came to Australia last year, ran about 8th.
Yer at SX, I meant outdoors. If he can't beat guys like Macenzie and Coppins outdoors he may as well quit!
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burn1986 9/14/2011 4:47am
9/14/2011 4:47am
Cygnus wrote:
Ok I have 100 bucks that says he doesnt win a SX on a KTM in 2012.

Page bookmarked.
I'll bet he'll win at least 3-5 SXs. The bikes have seemed to work for Roczen and Cairoli. Short has finished right where he would on a bike 100cc down.

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LtColMXUSM131 9/14/2011 4:58am
9/14/2011 4:58am
Ing wrote:
He'll win, I'll bet on it. Put your money where your mouth is.
I will take that bet! I have said for years he will never win a championship.
Over trained? Over the hill (ability wise). Too many fast guys coming up.
He is on the down side of the bell curve reached HIS peak a couple years ago. All down hill from here.
No SX skills, not winning at MX. Do the math.

In the immortal words of Public Enemy and Flav Flav
"Don't, Don't, Don't ,Don't, Don't believe the hype Hhheeheheheheheheheheaaaaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK8sxngSWaU
1-forty-8
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1-forty-8 9/14/2011 5:13am
9/14/2011 5:13am
Ing wrote:
He'll win, I'll bet on it. Put your money where your mouth is.
LtColMXUSM131 wrote:
I will take that bet! I have said for years he will never win a championship. Over trained? Over the hill (ability wise). Too many fast...
I will take that bet! I have said for years he will never win a championship.
Over trained? Over the hill (ability wise). Too many fast guys coming up.
He is on the down side of the bell curve reached HIS peak a couple years ago. All down hill from here.
No SX skills, not winning at MX. Do the math.

In the immortal words of Public Enemy and Flav Flav
"Don't, Don't, Don't ,Don't, Don't believe the hype Hhheeheheheheheheheheaaaaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK8sxngSWaU
Ok, who are you talking about never winning a championship because there talking about Dungey winning on KTM next year and he's already won a couple championships last I heard.

But yea agree about the Alessi thing, shame because he seems like a nice kid, I just can't see any gold coming his way at all in America.
Madmax31
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Madmax31 9/14/2011 5:25am
9/14/2011 5:25am
I would be more than happy to place a $100 wager that RD will win a SX race next year. As long as you're legit and will pay.

You guys are nuts. There is nothing wrong with the shock. Mike is not hanging it out like he used to because of the wrecks. Yeah he's slowing down towards the end of motos but most do with the exception of the top 3.
LtColMXUSM131 9/14/2011 5:34am
9/14/2011 5:34am
Madmax31 wrote:
I would be more than happy to place a $100 wager that RD will win a SX race next year. As long as you're legit and...
I would be more than happy to place a $100 wager that RD will win a SX race next year. As long as you're legit and will pay.

You guys are nuts. There is nothing wrong with the shock. Mike is not hanging it out like he used to because of the wrecks. Yeah he's slowing down towards the end of motos but most do with the exception of the top 3.
#800 never
#5 yes
Ing
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Ing 9/14/2011 7:36am
9/14/2011 7:36am
I've already got the C-note bet with Cygnus that Dungey will win at least 1 SX in the next year. Seems like easy money to me. I mean really, one SX. I have confidence that Cygnus will pay if he loses the same way I know I'll pay if I lose.
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Flatliner 9/14/2011 7:44am
9/14/2011 7:44am
Cygnus wrote:
Just about the time it takes for the rear shock to overheat on the KTM.
aFACEdismembered wrote:
That can be put to rest after seeing Cairoli go around Lierop for 40 minutes.
Assuming he's on the same suspension.
-eagle-
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-eagle- 9/14/2011 8:31am
9/14/2011 8:31am
Allegedly: Dungey, Short, Roczen, Musquin.
Team is pringles stacked for next year.

That being said, Dungey only got one sx win this year.
On what many have said to be one of the better bikes in the pro pits.
I wouldn't take that bet on either end.

Over under on his podiums would be interesting though.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 9/14/2011 5:29pm
9/14/2011 5:29pm
Ing wrote:
I've already got the C-note bet with Cygnus that Dungey will win at least 1 SX in the next year. Seems like easy money to me...
I've already got the C-note bet with Cygnus that Dungey will win at least 1 SX in the next year. Seems like easy money to me. I mean really, one SX. I have confidence that Cygnus will pay if he loses the same way I know I'll pay if I lose.
I'll pay If and when he pulls off a win. I can pay 100 dollar bet with my change jar. Just for the sake of argument we won't start the bet till after the MXDN ( since he will be on the bazooki still). But If for some reason he crashes while training for the SX season and can't make a gate I win. Fair enough ING?
jmar
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jmar 9/14/2011 6:34pm
9/14/2011 6:34pm
UpTiTe wrote:
He isn't over trained, he's under biked.
I agree with you on that, as far as the outdoor series goes. The 350 is just fine for supercross though.
Scooby
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Scooby 9/14/2011 6:49pm
9/14/2011 6:49pm
jmar wrote:
I agree with you on that, as far as the outdoor series goes. The 350 is just fine for supercross though.
Wasnt Mike on the 450 outdoors?
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ATKpilot99 9/14/2011 6:51pm
9/14/2011 6:51pm
jmar wrote:
I agree with you on that, as far as the outdoor series goes. The 350 is just fine for supercross though.
Scooby wrote:
Wasnt Mike on the 450 outdoors?
Yes
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Teej317 9/14/2011 7:00pm
9/14/2011 7:00pm Edited Date/Time 9/14/2011 7:01pm
wired4speed wrote:
I would love to see someone ask Alessi what it is that is holding him back. I just don't see him as aggressive in the corners...
I would love to see someone ask Alessi what it is that is holding him back. I just don't see him as aggressive in the corners as he was prior to his 350 stint. Alessi can run in the top 3 but it seems like he rides conservatively as the race progresses. I don't think it's a fitness issue.
x2.....With bike differences aside, I'd like to see Alessi come out with that confidence and spark he had in 09 when he took the first two rounds...he's a very capable rider and super consistent outdoors but just needs to find a little bit more to be a true title contender. I think if he wants it bad enough, he'll find a way to be up there next year...

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