Firearm Laws

TDeath21
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6515
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2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
3/29/2023 8:11am
Muttly wrote:

“Shall not be Infringed”. Sounds like my position is supported by the Constitution of the United States; Bill of Rights. 

LungButter wrote:
I'm on your side on this one, but I'll play devil's advocate. It also says "A well regulated Militia".... one could argue that independent citizens...

I'm on your side on this one, but I'll play devil's advocate.

It also says "A well regulated Militia".... one could argue that independent citizens are not that.

tuggy450 wrote:
Well regulated militia, had a completely different definition than what those arguing that point think it means today . Simply meant people competent with the use...

Well regulated militia, had a completely different definition than what those arguing that point think it means today . Simply meant people competent with the use of firearms, and essentially ready to go. Independent citizens is exactly who that referred to, "being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I just want to make sure I clarify here.

You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the time? Because that’s exactly as it is written in the Constitution’s 2nd Amendment?

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eddie
Posts
3020
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Location
Bragg Creek, AB, CA
3/29/2023 8:40am
7I3N wrote:
Who the “militia” are is outlined in the U.S. Code, Title 10, Section 246. It says: §246. Militia: composition and classes (a) The militia of the...

Who the “militia” are is outlined in the U.S. Code, Title 10, Section 246. It says:

§246. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title10-section246&num=0&edition=prelim

“who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States ”

Interesting . That’s a pretty loose criteria . 

2
zookrider62!
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Plano, TX, USA
3/29/2023 8:48am
7I3N wrote:
Who the “militia” are is outlined in the U.S. Code, Title 10, Section 246. It says: §246. Militia: composition and classes (a) The militia of the...

Who the “militia” are is outlined in the U.S. Code, Title 10, Section 246. It says:

§246. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title10-section246&num=0&edition=prelim

eddie wrote:

“who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States ”

Interesting . That’s a pretty loose criteria . 

I've read this 1,000 times but my dumb brain cant figure it out

 

I read this as, Militia is Males 17-45, and females that are part of the national guard

Wouldn't this mean that to own a gun, you must fit in the criteria above?

1
Joey Bridges
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Location
Kingston, TN, USA
3/29/2023 8:57am

Our you could click the link and stop being a muppet.

Bullshit,  boy.

Play your little linky link games with someone else.

Man your ass up and tell me about this "agenda" you were so mouthy about earlier. 

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7

The Shop

TeamGreen
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Thru-out, CA, USA
3/29/2023 8:58am
TDeath21 wrote:
I don’t think we want anyone walking into a firearms store and buying RPGs and .50 caliber fully auto machine guns. There’s a reasonable common sense...

I don’t think we want anyone walking into a firearms store and buying RPGs and .50 caliber fully auto machine guns. There’s a reasonable common sense threshold there we need to achieve as a nation.

Rocket Propelled Grenade …? At the corner store? Laughing

1
3
Joey Bridges
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Location
Kingston, TN, USA
3/29/2023 9:00am
TeamGreen wrote:
Rocket Propelled Grenade …? At the corner store? 

Rocket Propelled Grenade …? At the corner store? Laughing

Reminds me of a billboard that I saw years ago in Arizona along I-10.

 

Fireworks, ammo, and ordinance.

 

Those were the days.

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3/29/2023 9:17am
7I3N wrote:
Who the “militia” are is outlined in the U.S. Code, Title 10, Section 246. It says: §246. Militia: composition and classes (a) The militia of the...

Who the “militia” are is outlined in the U.S. Code, Title 10, Section 246. It says:

§246. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title10-section246&num=0&edition=prelim

The US Code was written in 1926. It does not supersede the plain language of the 2nd amendment. 

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1
APLMAN99
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Tualatin, OR, USA
Fantasy
3/29/2023 9:31am

Personally I am glad that the Supreme Court has, for now, asserted that the right to keep and bear arms is a personal one.  However, I do think that that the language of the Second Amendment leaves a lot of wiggle room to argue either way.  I wish that we could clarify it better because if you ignore the first 4 words then mutt is correct; any and all laws that may impede anyone from a weapon should be considered unconstitutional.  

As for the first 4 words, this seems to be an exception to the 'originalist' arguments for many.  To be fair and consistent, the best place to look to find out what was meant by 'militia' is probably The Federalist Paper 29: Concerning the Militia.  Even using that there are several different ways that the militia can be interpreted also..........

 

The Avalon Project : Federalist No 29 (yale.edu)

 

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3
tuggy450
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Massapequa, NY, USA
3/29/2023 9:54am
LungButter wrote:
I'm on your side on this one, but I'll play devil's advocate. It also says "A well regulated Militia".... one could argue that independent citizens...

I'm on your side on this one, but I'll play devil's advocate.

It also says "A well regulated Militia".... one could argue that independent citizens are not that.

tuggy450 wrote:
Well regulated militia, had a completely different definition than what those arguing that point think it means today . Simply meant people competent with the use...

Well regulated militia, had a completely different definition than what those arguing that point think it means today . Simply meant people competent with the use of firearms, and essentially ready to go. Independent citizens is exactly who that referred to, "being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

TDeath21 wrote:
I just want to make sure I clarify here. You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the...

I just want to make sure I clarify here.

You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the time? Because that’s exactly as it is written in the Constitution’s 2nd Amendment?

Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was written, not what someone redefines it to mean today. So no If someone decides to re-define militia that's their business, as long as they don't start confusing the terms.

 

2
TDeath21
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Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
3/29/2023 10:38am
tuggy450 wrote:
Well regulated militia, had a completely different definition than what those arguing that point think it means today . Simply meant people competent with the use...

Well regulated militia, had a completely different definition than what those arguing that point think it means today . Simply meant people competent with the use of firearms, and essentially ready to go. Independent citizens is exactly who that referred to, "being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

TDeath21 wrote:
I just want to make sure I clarify here. You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the...

I just want to make sure I clarify here.

You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the time? Because that’s exactly as it is written in the Constitution’s 2nd Amendment?

tuggy450 wrote:
Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was...

Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was written, not what someone redefines it to mean today. So no If someone decides to re-define militia that's their business, as long as they don't start confusing the terms.

 

That’s exactly what I mean. Do you believe we should go by what those words meant when the Constitution was written? Not what we know those words to mean today?

1
3/29/2023 10:46am
TXDirt wrote:
1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry. The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes...

1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry.

The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes for them to enter the school.

The shooter could have been engaged by trained staff within seconds.

In fact, we are learning the shooter was engaged by staff immediately. But the staff was unarmed. Either by law or by policy.

The staff is/was not allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

As a citizen I’m deeply saddened and ashamed we don’t provide the staff with the tools they may need to defend their schools.

Get rid of all gun free zones.

2. Get rid of all police officers in schools. Staff them with retired veterans and actively trained Dads and Granddads who patrol the schools. We do not need police in schools who know traffic laws and penal code.

We need trained veterans and Dads who can shoot a weapon and who can “go to the shooter” and engage.

There is nothing magical about pursuing a threat who is shooting children. Most people I know would sacrifice their life to stop a shooter. Let’s give them the tools to patrol the schools.

There are millions of veterans and highly capable Dads and Granddads who are available and willing to stand guard.

We need people who will engage. Yes the room clearing techniques the police used was wonderful. A full 14 minutes after the first shots were fired.

That’s too late when shots have already been fired and children are being shot.

3. Protect our most prized and our most vulnerable assets, innocent children, with the same level of protection we have around other things we value. Imagine if we protected kids like we protect our money, or politicians, or celebrities.

In the last month:

I go to work, armed guards.
I go to bank, armed guards.
I go to courthouse, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to ballpark, armed guards.
I go to coliseum, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to casino, armed guards.
I go to airport, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to Disney, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to the kids school.........sign says "Gun free zone."

It's time for change. 

Sensible, meaningful change that works, and it has nothing to do with passing useless, unenforced laws and enacting empty gun control measures that criminals ignore.

The reality of the world is that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Harden the schools. 

In the 1920-30s, bank robberies became prevalent, they were romanticized and the criminals committing them gained fame, and it quickly became an epidemic. Then we hardened the banks.

In the 1960s as air travel became prevalent, skyjackings and plane bombings became a thing. It made front page news and every banana republic group that wanted to make demands had a way to get attention. Then we hardened the airports.

In the late 60s and 70s, celebrity and political assassinations were the attention seeking phenomena of that time, the school shootings of that day, for the demented and dangerous attention seekers. Then we hardened targets and the use of bodyguards became commonplace.

You wouldn't think about going to an airport and boarding a plane in today's world that had no security procedure other than a "no bombs" sign. 

It would be fish in a barrel, and that is exactly what it is like currently for our kids in schools.

In Israel, under the real and credible threat of PLO terrorism against their schools and their children, they don't have these problems because their schools are hardened.

In the US, we protect our money, our banks, our politicians, our celebrities, ourselves, and everything important to us with guns and armed guards. 

Except our children. And enough is enough.

We should do the same for our children.

Harden the schools.

Anything else, while I support stronger mental health initiatives, are literally decades away from making any difference. Decades.

Meanwhile, children are being murdered in schools.

Implement any or preferably all above items and children killed in school will drop to near zero.

We can do it today.

Sadly we won’t. And more body bags will be needed.

I agree schools should not be gun free zones. The trans shooter went to other targets 1st but they had too much security .  More gun laws etc is not the answer. Look at Chicago one of the most strict gun law cities.  It’s really sad & unbelievable that schools hv shootings. But it’s been around along time it used to not make the news. We had kids bring guns to school in the 80,s. We beat him up.  A shocking & much higher number of kids are murdered by there parents not using guns than school shootings.  The media has everyone thinking getting shot is the worst thing that could ever happen.  Most people that get shot never report it. 

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Muttly
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Mills, NM, USA
3/29/2023 11:03am

E1A3982D-91E4-4FFF-AF13-737EC0645B27.jpeg?VersionId=XaQt

 

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Muttly
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3/29/2023 11:11am
TXDirt wrote:
I’m supportive of reporting mental cases….. but that puts the onus on the parents or the counselor. I don’t even mind stricter gun purchasing laws. Whatever...

I’m supportive of reporting mental cases….. but that puts the onus on the parents or the counselor. I don’t even mind stricter gun purchasing laws. Whatever that might be.

That’s a great avenue to pursue and I’ll let others far smarter then me sort that out.

Until then, and until every parent, counselor, and psychologist can self report every mental case….

Harden all schools.

I kmow you are on board with me. I’m just reinforcing my point.

We need action today to protect kids.

Gun laws, mental health, the drug epidemics, loss of morals, ……..that’s going to take 100+ years to solve. If ever.

It’s a noble cause to pursue. But it’s like being tasked with getting rid of sin and evil in the world.

It ain’t going to happen.

So until then, harden all schools.

“Red Flag” laws are crazy. Can you imagine the amount of false reporting by pissed off family members, neighbors, coworkers etc;?

Used to like Dan Crenshaw until he supported red flag bullshit against Veterans. 

1
3
tuggy450
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Location
Massapequa, NY, USA
3/29/2023 11:14am
TDeath21 wrote:
I just want to make sure I clarify here. You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the...

I just want to make sure I clarify here.

You believe that the term Militia should be applied today as what the term meant at the time? Because that’s exactly as it is written in the Constitution’s 2nd Amendment?

tuggy450 wrote:
Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was...

Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was written, not what someone redefines it to mean today. So no If someone decides to re-define militia that's their business, as long as they don't start confusing the terms.

 

TDeath21 wrote:
That’s exactly what I mean. Do you believe we should go by what those words meant when the Constitution was written? Not what we know those...

That’s exactly what I mean. Do you believe we should go by what those words meant when the Constitution was written? Not what we know those words to mean today?

Yes. The intent was as clear now as it was then. Unless you are confusing the intent,  with someone's modern definitions of terms used. 

Now you can make an argument about whether the 2nd amendment is necessary but when the default mode of most Countries throughout the world is tyrannical rule, with very few exceptions, the US being one of them, perhaps the 2nd amendment is doing exactly what it was intended to do.  

 

2
3
flow
Posts
188
Joined
7/27/2022
Location
Ontario, OR, USA
3/29/2023 11:18am
TXDirt wrote:
1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry. The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes...

1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry.

The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes for them to enter the school.

The shooter could have been engaged by trained staff within seconds.

In fact, we are learning the shooter was engaged by staff immediately. But the staff was unarmed. Either by law or by policy.

The staff is/was not allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

As a citizen I’m deeply saddened and ashamed we don’t provide the staff with the tools they may need to defend their schools.

Get rid of all gun free zones.

2. Get rid of all police officers in schools. Staff them with retired veterans and actively trained Dads and Granddads who patrol the schools. We do not need police in schools who know traffic laws and penal code.

We need trained veterans and Dads who can shoot a weapon and who can “go to the shooter” and engage.

There is nothing magical about pursuing a threat who is shooting children. Most people I know would sacrifice their life to stop a shooter. Let’s give them the tools to patrol the schools.

There are millions of veterans and highly capable Dads and Granddads who are available and willing to stand guard.

We need people who will engage. Yes the room clearing techniques the police used was wonderful. A full 14 minutes after the first shots were fired.

That’s too late when shots have already been fired and children are being shot.

3. Protect our most prized and our most vulnerable assets, innocent children, with the same level of protection we have around other things we value. Imagine if we protected kids like we protect our money, or politicians, or celebrities.

In the last month:

I go to work, armed guards.
I go to bank, armed guards.
I go to courthouse, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to ballpark, armed guards.
I go to coliseum, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to casino, armed guards.
I go to airport, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to Disney, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to the kids school.........sign says "Gun free zone."

It's time for change. 

Sensible, meaningful change that works, and it has nothing to do with passing useless, unenforced laws and enacting empty gun control measures that criminals ignore.

The reality of the world is that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Harden the schools. 

In the 1920-30s, bank robberies became prevalent, they were romanticized and the criminals committing them gained fame, and it quickly became an epidemic. Then we hardened the banks.

In the 1960s as air travel became prevalent, skyjackings and plane bombings became a thing. It made front page news and every banana republic group that wanted to make demands had a way to get attention. Then we hardened the airports.

In the late 60s and 70s, celebrity and political assassinations were the attention seeking phenomena of that time, the school shootings of that day, for the demented and dangerous attention seekers. Then we hardened targets and the use of bodyguards became commonplace.

You wouldn't think about going to an airport and boarding a plane in today's world that had no security procedure other than a "no bombs" sign. 

It would be fish in a barrel, and that is exactly what it is like currently for our kids in schools.

In Israel, under the real and credible threat of PLO terrorism against their schools and their children, they don't have these problems because their schools are hardened.

In the US, we protect our money, our banks, our politicians, our celebrities, ourselves, and everything important to us with guns and armed guards. 

Except our children. And enough is enough.

We should do the same for our children.

Harden the schools.

Anything else, while I support stronger mental health initiatives, are literally decades away from making any difference. Decades.

Meanwhile, children are being murdered in schools.

Implement any or preferably all above items and children killed in school will drop to near zero.

We can do it today.

Sadly we won’t. And more body bags will be needed.

So I see the topic of arming teachers pop up a lot - by saying "let" the teachers carry, that is an opt in/out type thing? I've noticed the more left-leaning media that I've seen frame that as "teachers have to carry guns", and I've never really gotten much clarification on whether that's a leftist talking point or a viewpoint that some hold on this topic. Regardless, if this was the case, I think it'd be smart to have some kind of reholster/seek cover protocol for when the authorities reach the school. I watched the Nashville footage and was impressed by how quickly they moved through the school and worry about what that would look like if they had to discern armed friendlies throughout the process. Teachers/hired veterans + dads would for sure need an effective radio channel to communicate directly with SWAT or whatever team is managing the assault. 

I'm personally not super into the idea of arming teachers, although I can see your point regarding the 14 minute response time. However, the idea of having veterans/dads onsite is intriguing to me and an angle that I have yet to see. I'm curious how this would look fully implemented. 

1
Muttly
Posts
1959
Joined
10/3/2021
Location
Mills, NM, USA
3/29/2023 11:18am
tuggy450 wrote:
Yes. The intent was as clear now as it was then. Unless you are confusing the intent,  with someone's modern definitions of terms used.  Now you...

Yes. The intent was as clear now as it was then. Unless you are confusing the intent,  with someone's modern definitions of terms used. 

Now you can make an argument about whether the 2nd amendment is necessary but when the default mode of most Countries throughout the world is tyrannical rule, with very few exceptions, the US being one of them, perhaps the 2nd amendment is doing exactly what it was intended to do.  

 

Of course. Why do you think they’re trying to destroy it through limitations, including banning and confiscation? Never in the history of history, has gun confiscation ever worked out well.

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LoudLove
Posts
2917
Joined
7/16/2010
Location
USA
3/29/2023 11:20am

The 2nd Amendment was written to protect the lives and liberties of citizens. Today it effectively achieves the opposite. Believing “more guns in the hands of more people” will cure our woes ignores the fact that, in the US, we already have more guns in the hands of more people than any 1st world country. 

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1
prozach
Posts
1295
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7/1/2008
Location
Eureka, CA, USA
3/29/2023 11:22am

The number one way a kid is likey to die in America is from a fire arm.  Not cancer, not car crashes, not opioids. That is pretty sad.  

There were more school shootings in America last year than the rest of the world combined over the last decade. 

These are undeniable facts.  They are also only true of America. A place with the least strict gun control laws in the developed world.  Seems like common sense gun control makes for safer schools and communities against gun violence all over the world.🤷‍♀️ 

In our country the leading states for firearm death per capital are Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, Alaska, New Mexico, Arkansas, south Carolina, Tennessee, Montana....what do they all have in common? They are all states with less strict gun control laws...

 

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6
Jeremy A.K.
Posts
1449
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1/5/2022
Location
North Tonawanda, NY, USA
3/29/2023 11:33am

Has it been discussed how this POS got into the building in the first place? 

1
TDeath21
Posts
6515
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2/22/2011
Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
3/29/2023 11:37am

Has it been discussed how this POS got into the building in the first place? 

They shot their way in. Shot the glass doors until they shattered. Then used the butt of the gun to smash them out and proceed inside. 

1
7I3N
Posts
1746
Joined
10/22/2009
Location
Moto Paradise, UT, USA
3/29/2023 11:39am
APLMAN99 wrote:
Personally I am glad that the Supreme Court has, for now, asserted that the right to keep and bear arms is a personal one.  However, I...

Personally I am glad that the Supreme Court has, for now, asserted that the right to keep and bear arms is a personal one.  However, I do think that that the language of the Second Amendment leaves a lot of wiggle room to argue either way.  I wish that we could clarify it better because if you ignore the first 4 words then mutt is correct; any and all laws that may impede anyone from a weapon should be considered unconstitutional.  

As for the first 4 words, this seems to be an exception to the 'originalist' arguments for many.  To be fair and consistent, the best place to look to find out what was meant by 'militia' is probably The Federalist Paper 29: Concerning the Militia.  Even using that there are several different ways that the militia can be interpreted also..........

 

The Avalon Project : Federalist No 29 (yale.edu)

 

You could also look to the words of the man who helped write the 2nd Amendment. 

George-Mason-874557965

 

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TDeath21
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6515
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Location
Somewhere, MO, USA
3/29/2023 11:42am
tuggy450 wrote:
Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was...

Not sure what you mean, Nothing to clarify, the original meaning of Militia?   It is what the meaning of the 2nd amendment intended when it was written, not what someone redefines it to mean today. So no If someone decides to re-define militia that's their business, as long as they don't start confusing the terms.

 

TDeath21 wrote:
That’s exactly what I mean. Do you believe we should go by what those words meant when the Constitution was written? Not what we know those...

That’s exactly what I mean. Do you believe we should go by what those words meant when the Constitution was written? Not what we know those words to mean today?

tuggy450 wrote:
Yes. The intent was as clear now as it was then. Unless you are confusing the intent,  with someone's modern definitions of terms used.  Now you...

Yes. The intent was as clear now as it was then. Unless you are confusing the intent,  with someone's modern definitions of terms used. 

Now you can make an argument about whether the 2nd amendment is necessary but when the default mode of most Countries throughout the world is tyrannical rule, with very few exceptions, the US being one of them, perhaps the 2nd amendment is doing exactly what it was intended to do.  

 

I’m glad we have clarified that you believe we should take each word of the Constitution, and specifically the 2nd Amendment, as what those words meant when they were written. I disagree and I have the more Jeffersonian viewpoint, that we should mold and adjust it as necessary to keep up with the modern times. But, given what your view point is …

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

If you were to tell someone in 1789 to take up Arms, what specific weapon might they immediately think of? What did they know Arms to be at the time the Constitution was written?

1
IWreckALot
Posts
8677
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3/12/2011
Location
Fort Worth, TX, USA
3/29/2023 11:48am

For those of you arguing for more laws or stricter gun buying processes:

Which law or laws would have had the most impact? 

At what point do you say more laws isn't cutting it?

What laws specifically target criminals successfully that don't punish law abiding citizens?

If you believe laws should be passed each time a gun crime occurs, you will eventually outlaw gun rights.

People will find ways to circumvent the laws to commit crimes of every nature. The only way to reduce gun crimes is to not only eliminate legal gun possession, but to literally destroy every gun in the nation. Not realistic at this point.

I'd be in favor of a law that (1) can provably cease huge swaths of gun crimes but (2) doesn't affect the ability of a lawful citizen to purchase a gun and (3) has a set formula that politicians can't tinker with to get the result they want and (4) will sunset if the law doesn't decrease gun crimes by it's stated effect.

This isn't how laws are written or how they work. And for that reason I'm opposed 100% to more laws than we currently have. 

 

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1
TXDirt
Posts
7786
Joined
7/29/2015
Location
Plano, TX, USA
3/29/2023 11:57am
TXDirt wrote:
1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry. The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes...

1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry.

The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes for them to enter the school.

The shooter could have been engaged by trained staff within seconds.

In fact, we are learning the shooter was engaged by staff immediately. But the staff was unarmed. Either by law or by policy.

The staff is/was not allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

As a citizen I’m deeply saddened and ashamed we don’t provide the staff with the tools they may need to defend their schools.

Get rid of all gun free zones.

2. Get rid of all police officers in schools. Staff them with retired veterans and actively trained Dads and Granddads who patrol the schools. We do not need police in schools who know traffic laws and penal code.

We need trained veterans and Dads who can shoot a weapon and who can “go to the shooter” and engage.

There is nothing magical about pursuing a threat who is shooting children. Most people I know would sacrifice their life to stop a shooter. Let’s give them the tools to patrol the schools.

There are millions of veterans and highly capable Dads and Granddads who are available and willing to stand guard.

We need people who will engage. Yes the room clearing techniques the police used was wonderful. A full 14 minutes after the first shots were fired.

That’s too late when shots have already been fired and children are being shot.

3. Protect our most prized and our most vulnerable assets, innocent children, with the same level of protection we have around other things we value. Imagine if we protected kids like we protect our money, or politicians, or celebrities.

In the last month:

I go to work, armed guards.
I go to bank, armed guards.
I go to courthouse, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to ballpark, armed guards.
I go to coliseum, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to casino, armed guards.
I go to airport, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to Disney, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to the kids school.........sign says "Gun free zone."

It's time for change. 

Sensible, meaningful change that works, and it has nothing to do with passing useless, unenforced laws and enacting empty gun control measures that criminals ignore.

The reality of the world is that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Harden the schools. 

In the 1920-30s, bank robberies became prevalent, they were romanticized and the criminals committing them gained fame, and it quickly became an epidemic. Then we hardened the banks.

In the 1960s as air travel became prevalent, skyjackings and plane bombings became a thing. It made front page news and every banana republic group that wanted to make demands had a way to get attention. Then we hardened the airports.

In the late 60s and 70s, celebrity and political assassinations were the attention seeking phenomena of that time, the school shootings of that day, for the demented and dangerous attention seekers. Then we hardened targets and the use of bodyguards became commonplace.

You wouldn't think about going to an airport and boarding a plane in today's world that had no security procedure other than a "no bombs" sign. 

It would be fish in a barrel, and that is exactly what it is like currently for our kids in schools.

In Israel, under the real and credible threat of PLO terrorism against their schools and their children, they don't have these problems because their schools are hardened.

In the US, we protect our money, our banks, our politicians, our celebrities, ourselves, and everything important to us with guns and armed guards. 

Except our children. And enough is enough.

We should do the same for our children.

Harden the schools.

Anything else, while I support stronger mental health initiatives, are literally decades away from making any difference. Decades.

Meanwhile, children are being murdered in schools.

Implement any or preferably all above items and children killed in school will drop to near zero.

We can do it today.

Sadly we won’t. And more body bags will be needed.

flow wrote:
So I see the topic of arming teachers pop up a lot - by saying "let" the teachers carry, that is an opt in/out type thing...

So I see the topic of arming teachers pop up a lot - by saying "let" the teachers carry, that is an opt in/out type thing? I've noticed the more left-leaning media that I've seen frame that as "teachers have to carry guns", and I've never really gotten much clarification on whether that's a leftist talking point or a viewpoint that some hold on this topic. Regardless, if this was the case, I think it'd be smart to have some kind of reholster/seek cover protocol for when the authorities reach the school. I watched the Nashville footage and was impressed by how quickly they moved through the school and worry about what that would look like if they had to discern armed friendlies throughout the process. Teachers/hired veterans + dads would for sure need an effective radio channel to communicate directly with SWAT or whatever team is managing the assault. 

I'm personally not super into the idea of arming teachers, although I can see your point regarding the 14 minute response time. However, the idea of having veterans/dads onsite is intriguing to me and an angle that I have yet to see. I'm curious how this would look fully implemented. 

Your concerns are certainly justified when it comes to the police trying to figure out who the good guys are. However, that’s a risk we must take in these situations. Obviously tragic if a Good Samaritan is killed by the police. And yes it happens. But it is rare.

There is training you can go through that describes the right way to handle this type of situation.

If staff were to engage the shooter and shoot or hopefully kill the shooter, the protocol calls for reholstering your weapon before police arrive.

As a security leader for a large church congregation, we discuss this very thing. As lay people, we are to engage target. When threat is neutralized we reholster our weapon.

These things usually happen very very fast when you engage a shooter. Unlikely there is a shootout that lasts 15 minutes. And the police can’t tell good guys from bad guys.

It would be rare, near impossible, that police show up to an active firefight between staff and a shooter. But if so, that’s a risk we must take.

14 minutes is a long damn time. The shooter or the staff are dead most likely.

I’ve advocated for a long time to remove police from schools. They don’t belong in schools. Police have different training and different knowledge. You do not need to know traffic laws and penal code to protect school children.

Staff the schools with retired veterans, Dads, and Granddads who have training.

We have several 65+ year old retired police and military on our team at church. They could drop you like a bag of dirt from 50 yards. They all are more then willing to “go to gun” as we call it.

That means every single member of our team is trained to “go to gun”. We keep going until threat is neutralized. We don’t need to be trained to clear rooms. You hear Gun shots, you hear reports of a gun somewhere. The policy and training says we go to gun. End of story.

The uvalde shooting taught us a lot of lessons. Namely, police make crappy school resource officers. Just because you wear blue pants doesn’t make you a super hero.

Give me some veterans, some trained dads and grand dads, and we will all go to gun and take out the shooter. Or die trying atleast.

That’s a far better plan than some of these fat and lazy police officers assigned to the schools. A lot of the officers assigned to school duty are not the best if the best.

So in many cases you have the least capable officers, watching over the most vulnerable and high target assets. School children.

Plenty, and I mean plenty of vets and trained Dads would absolutely be more effective.

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2
flow
Posts
188
Joined
7/27/2022
Location
Ontario, OR, USA
3/29/2023 12:01pm
Muttly wrote:
Wait a minute though, if you require identification to buy a firearm, why not require it to vote?    Are we performing background checks on voters? ...

Wait a minute though, if you require identification to buy a firearm, why not require it to vote? 
 

Are we performing background checks on voters? 
 

I believe we’d be better served doing background checks, before you have a child? It’s the moral decay of our nation, not firearms that are the problem. 

flow wrote:
I think both voting and firearm ID's are reasonable, however it's important to make sure that the process of obtaining identification doesn't create barriers for the...

I think both voting and firearm ID's are reasonable, however it's important to make sure that the process of obtaining identification doesn't create barriers for the working poor. I also think think that, while both of these topics have to do with identification, they are two very different conversations and two situations that it's to our benefit not to get our wires crossed by trying to discuss both at once. 

"obtaining identification doesn't create barriers for the working poor". WTF does that even mean? The working poor have a license, or a bus pass, or a...

"obtaining identification doesn't create barriers for the working poor". WTF does that even mean? The working poor have a license, or a bus pass, or a library card.A ID doesnt cost shit! That is such a weak, BS argument!

In a perfect world, someone should be able to walk into the clerks office/DMV/whatever easily and walk out with a voter ID. In that case, I totally get where you're coming from. But we have some logistical work to do before this doesn't create barriers for busy low income Americans. Fees, weird DMV hours, ID requirements, and other hoop-jumping nonsense that makes it hard for some people to obtain their ID. Again, I'm not opposed to ID requirements, but I just think we need to iron things out well before election time so that someone doesn't find out a month before the election that they need to take a day off from work to travel to the nearest DMV (also many counties don't have DMV's, requiring very long commutes) or handle paperwork, etc. 

1
2
flow
Posts
188
Joined
7/27/2022
Location
Ontario, OR, USA
3/29/2023 12:22pm Edited Date/Time 3/29/2023 12:26pm
TXDirt wrote:
1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry. The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes...

1. Get rid of gun free zones. Let teachers and staff carry.

The police in Nashville did an amazing job, but it still took 14 minutes for them to enter the school.

The shooter could have been engaged by trained staff within seconds.

In fact, we are learning the shooter was engaged by staff immediately. But the staff was unarmed. Either by law or by policy.

The staff is/was not allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

As a citizen I’m deeply saddened and ashamed we don’t provide the staff with the tools they may need to defend their schools.

Get rid of all gun free zones.

2. Get rid of all police officers in schools. Staff them with retired veterans and actively trained Dads and Granddads who patrol the schools. We do not need police in schools who know traffic laws and penal code.

We need trained veterans and Dads who can shoot a weapon and who can “go to the shooter” and engage.

There is nothing magical about pursuing a threat who is shooting children. Most people I know would sacrifice their life to stop a shooter. Let’s give them the tools to patrol the schools.

There are millions of veterans and highly capable Dads and Granddads who are available and willing to stand guard.

We need people who will engage. Yes the room clearing techniques the police used was wonderful. A full 14 minutes after the first shots were fired.

That’s too late when shots have already been fired and children are being shot.

3. Protect our most prized and our most vulnerable assets, innocent children, with the same level of protection we have around other things we value. Imagine if we protected kids like we protect our money, or politicians, or celebrities.

In the last month:

I go to work, armed guards.
I go to bank, armed guards.
I go to courthouse, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to ballpark, armed guards.
I go to coliseum, metal detector and armed guards.
I go to casino, armed guards.
I go to airport, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to Disney, metal detectors and armed guards.
I go to the kids school.........sign says "Gun free zone."

It's time for change. 

Sensible, meaningful change that works, and it has nothing to do with passing useless, unenforced laws and enacting empty gun control measures that criminals ignore.

The reality of the world is that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Harden the schools. 

In the 1920-30s, bank robberies became prevalent, they were romanticized and the criminals committing them gained fame, and it quickly became an epidemic. Then we hardened the banks.

In the 1960s as air travel became prevalent, skyjackings and plane bombings became a thing. It made front page news and every banana republic group that wanted to make demands had a way to get attention. Then we hardened the airports.

In the late 60s and 70s, celebrity and political assassinations were the attention seeking phenomena of that time, the school shootings of that day, for the demented and dangerous attention seekers. Then we hardened targets and the use of bodyguards became commonplace.

You wouldn't think about going to an airport and boarding a plane in today's world that had no security procedure other than a "no bombs" sign. 

It would be fish in a barrel, and that is exactly what it is like currently for our kids in schools.

In Israel, under the real and credible threat of PLO terrorism against their schools and their children, they don't have these problems because their schools are hardened.

In the US, we protect our money, our banks, our politicians, our celebrities, ourselves, and everything important to us with guns and armed guards. 

Except our children. And enough is enough.

We should do the same for our children.

Harden the schools.

Anything else, while I support stronger mental health initiatives, are literally decades away from making any difference. Decades.

Meanwhile, children are being murdered in schools.

Implement any or preferably all above items and children killed in school will drop to near zero.

We can do it today.

Sadly we won’t. And more body bags will be needed.

flow wrote:
So I see the topic of arming teachers pop up a lot - by saying "let" the teachers carry, that is an opt in/out type thing...

So I see the topic of arming teachers pop up a lot - by saying "let" the teachers carry, that is an opt in/out type thing? I've noticed the more left-leaning media that I've seen frame that as "teachers have to carry guns", and I've never really gotten much clarification on whether that's a leftist talking point or a viewpoint that some hold on this topic. Regardless, if this was the case, I think it'd be smart to have some kind of reholster/seek cover protocol for when the authorities reach the school. I watched the Nashville footage and was impressed by how quickly they moved through the school and worry about what that would look like if they had to discern armed friendlies throughout the process. Teachers/hired veterans + dads would for sure need an effective radio channel to communicate directly with SWAT or whatever team is managing the assault. 

I'm personally not super into the idea of arming teachers, although I can see your point regarding the 14 minute response time. However, the idea of having veterans/dads onsite is intriguing to me and an angle that I have yet to see. I'm curious how this would look fully implemented. 

TXDirt wrote:
Your concerns are certainly justified when it comes to the police trying to figure out who the good guys are. However, that’s a risk we must...

Your concerns are certainly justified when it comes to the police trying to figure out who the good guys are. However, that’s a risk we must take in these situations. Obviously tragic if a Good Samaritan is killed by the police. And yes it happens. But it is rare.

There is training you can go through that describes the right way to handle this type of situation.

If staff were to engage the shooter and shoot or hopefully kill the shooter, the protocol calls for reholstering your weapon before police arrive.

As a security leader for a large church congregation, we discuss this very thing. As lay people, we are to engage target. When threat is neutralized we reholster our weapon.

These things usually happen very very fast when you engage a shooter. Unlikely there is a shootout that lasts 15 minutes. And the police can’t tell good guys from bad guys.

It would be rare, near impossible, that police show up to an active firefight between staff and a shooter. But if so, that’s a risk we must take.

14 minutes is a long damn time. The shooter or the staff are dead most likely.

I’ve advocated for a long time to remove police from schools. They don’t belong in schools. Police have different training and different knowledge. You do not need to know traffic laws and penal code to protect school children.

Staff the schools with retired veterans, Dads, and Granddads who have training.

We have several 65+ year old retired police and military on our team at church. They could drop you like a bag of dirt from 50 yards. They all are more then willing to “go to gun” as we call it.

That means every single member of our team is trained to “go to gun”. We keep going until threat is neutralized. We don’t need to be trained to clear rooms. You hear Gun shots, you hear reports of a gun somewhere. The policy and training says we go to gun. End of story.

The uvalde shooting taught us a lot of lessons. Namely, police make crappy school resource officers. Just because you wear blue pants doesn’t make you a super hero.

Give me some veterans, some trained dads and grand dads, and we will all go to gun and take out the shooter. Or die trying atleast.

That’s a far better plan than some of these fat and lazy police officers assigned to the schools. A lot of the officers assigned to school duty are not the best if the best.

So in many cases you have the least capable officers, watching over the most vulnerable and high target assets. School children.

Plenty, and I mean plenty of vets and trained Dads would absolutely be more effective.

I obviously would need to chew on this for a while, but your take on this is something that I hadn't considered. I think that many of us on both sides of the aisle agree that we don't really do enough to welcome veterans back into our communities, and I think that having the opportunity to interface with the future of the country that they served for is a really cool concept. I'm kind of a weirdo in the sense that I don't really like guns (for a few reasons, some personal) but am pro-2a leaning, and am generally skeptical of gun control laws, especially with their racial history (ie Mulford Act, Dred Scott v Sandford, etc). This is a topic that I'm willing to converse on but typically don't put ink to the ballot because of my general lack of stance. 

Thanks a ton for taking the time to type out a thoughtful response to my question. You've obviously put a lot of contemplation into that and have given me a lot to chew on. 

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3/29/2023 12:30pm
prozach wrote:
The number one way a kid is likey to die in America is from a fire arm.  Not cancer, not car crashes, not opioids. That is...

The number one way a kid is likey to die in America is from a fire arm.  Not cancer, not car crashes, not opioids. That is pretty sad.  

There were more school shootings in America last year than the rest of the world combined over the last decade. 

These are undeniable facts.  They are also only true of America. A place with the least strict gun control laws in the developed world.  Seems like common sense gun control makes for safer schools and communities against gun violence all over the world.🤷‍♀️ 

In our country the leading states for firearm death per capital are Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, Alaska, New Mexico, Arkansas, south Carolina, Tennessee, Montana....what do they all have in common? They are all states with less strict gun control laws...

 

That’s not true. Because it’s in the media you think guns are the biggest killers. Your brain washed. More people are beaten to death or stabbed in death . The shootings r a mental health disaster. Watch on yt, interview with a evil child and where she is today,17 mil views.  Super innocent 6 yr old girl but it will blow your mind on what & how she answers questions.  She is a rare lucky one that made it threw to become normal.  

2
2
tuggy450
Posts
1389
Joined
3/12/2016
Location
Massapequa, NY, USA
3/29/2023 12:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/29/2023 12:37pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I’m glad we have clarified that you believe we should take each word of the Constitution, and specifically the 2nd Amendment, as what those words meant...

I’m glad we have clarified that you believe we should take each word of the Constitution, and specifically the 2nd Amendment, as what those words meant when they were written. I disagree and I have the more Jeffersonian viewpoint, that we should mold and adjust it as necessary to keep up with the modern times. But, given what your view point is …

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

If you were to tell someone in 1789 to take up Arms, what specific weapon might they immediately think of? What did they know Arms to be at the time the Constitution was written?

When the constitution was written they had a pretty good idea what the evolution of arms were, club, sword, shield, spears,  pikes, cannons , bow and arrows , big rocks,  slingshot, catapult, explosives,  muskets etc.

The fact they used the term "Arms" instead of muskets tells you they weren't fucking around with their idea of what the sovereignty of the individual meant.

BTW it's not like I have a dog in the fight don't own a firearm and never have.

 

1
3
NvHermit
Posts
887
Joined
7/21/2018
Location
Poeville, NV, USA
3/29/2023 12:53pm

As a medical marijuana cultivator card holder they won't allow me to buy or own guns so I gave them all to my grandson

1
2
prozach
Posts
1295
Joined
7/1/2008
Location
Eureka, CA, USA
3/29/2023 1:04pm
prozach wrote:
The number one way a kid is likey to die in America is from a fire arm.  Not cancer, not car crashes, not opioids. That is...

The number one way a kid is likey to die in America is from a fire arm.  Not cancer, not car crashes, not opioids. That is pretty sad.  

There were more school shootings in America last year than the rest of the world combined over the last decade. 

These are undeniable facts.  They are also only true of America. A place with the least strict gun control laws in the developed world.  Seems like common sense gun control makes for safer schools and communities against gun violence all over the world.🤷‍♀️ 

In our country the leading states for firearm death per capital are Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, Alaska, New Mexico, Arkansas, south Carolina, Tennessee, Montana....what do they all have in common? They are all states with less strict gun control laws...

 

That’s not true. Because it’s in the media you think guns are the biggest killers. Your brain washed. More people are beaten to death or stabbed...

That’s not true. Because it’s in the media you think guns are the biggest killers. Your brain washed. More people are beaten to death or stabbed in death . The shootings r a mental health disaster. Watch on yt, interview with a evil child and where she is today,17 mil views.  Super innocent 6 yr old girl but it will blow your mind on what & how she answers questions.  She is a rare lucky one that made it threw to become normal.  

Dude, everything I stated is 100% factual. Not brain washing.  

I am all for 2nd amend rights. But it is undeniable that more gun control = less gun related deaths per capita pretty much everywhere in the world.  Including our own country.  

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