why doesnt ktm use aluinum frames?

Hando
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Hando
Edited Date/Time 11/16/2012 12:21am
Not trying to make this a debate about alum vs steel...

The big 4 do it because its cheaper to cut the pieces and the blades on the machines dont wear down as quick from a production point of view (this what i heard, makes sense but if im wrong please correct me)

So why doesnt a smaller company like ktm do it?
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zookie
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zookie 11/11/2012 8:33pm
11/11/2012 8:33pm
Because they suck! Expensive, don't feel good, hard to work on, etc.
TerryK
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TerryK 11/11/2012 8:43pm
11/11/2012 8:43pm
Because in KTMs opinion, steel works better.
nytsmaC
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nytsmaC 11/11/2012 8:46pm
11/11/2012 8:46pm
What advantage does aluminum have, other than it doesn't need to be painted?

I can think of a many advantages that steel/chromoly has.
Hando
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Hando 11/11/2012 8:54pm
11/11/2012 8:54pm
nytsmaC wrote:
What advantage does aluminum have, other than it doesn't need to be painted?

I can think of a many advantages that steel/chromoly has.
Less prone to cracking?

I never hear of people 'gusseting' aluminum frames but I know they can crack..

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RM127
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RM127 11/11/2012 9:42pm
11/11/2012 9:42pm
Its also a niche. Some people love steel so they buy ktm, just like 2 strokes.

If ktm switched to aluminum, I think they will loose sales rather gain.
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Tiki 11/11/2012 10:04pm
11/11/2012 10:04pm
Carbon Fiber is where it's at.
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tobz 11/11/2012 10:18pm
11/11/2012 10:18pm
Hando wrote:
Not trying to make this a debate about alum vs steel... The big 4 do it because its cheaper to cut the pieces and the blades...
Not trying to make this a debate about alum vs steel...

The big 4 do it because its cheaper to cut the pieces and the blades on the machines dont wear down as quick from a production point of view (this what i heard, makes sense but if im wrong please correct me)

So why doesnt a smaller company like ktm do it?
looks better on paper = easier to sell to the masses

Steel frames are fine.
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motokiwi 11/11/2012 11:56pm
11/11/2012 11:56pm
Hando wrote:
Less prone to cracking?

I never hear of people 'gusseting' aluminum frames but I know they can crack..
I have seen articles where teams like Geico Honda mention that they add extra welds to the alloy frames.
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jock 11/12/2012 1:56am
11/12/2012 1:56am
When MXA tested the Dunge's bike, didn't they say it was the most neutral handling frame they had ever ridden?
snipermx50cal 11/12/2012 2:59am
11/12/2012 2:59am
Hando wrote:
Not trying to make this a debate about alum vs steel... The big 4 do it because its cheaper to cut the pieces and the blades...
Not trying to make this a debate about alum vs steel...

The big 4 do it because its cheaper to cut the pieces and the blades on the machines dont wear down as quick from a production point of view (this what i heard, makes sense but if im wrong please correct me)

So why doesnt a smaller company like ktm do it?
Because they can't spell aluminum, just like you!
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Fearo 11/12/2012 5:26am
11/12/2012 5:26am Edited Date/Time 11/12/2012 5:26am
Not to hijack the thread but De Carli tried a carbon frame on Tony Cairoli's YZ250F back in the day. I believe they said it was a huge weight loss and the bike felt incredible to ride. However, they could never consider using it in racing because they would have to change the frame every other hour because the carbon would start to flex making the bike unrideable.
ClassCClairVoyant 11/12/2012 6:24am
11/12/2012 6:24am
Hando wrote:
Less prone to cracking?

I never hear of people 'gusseting' aluminum frames but I know they can crack..
I had the tank off my '08 SXF the other day while I was jetting it and looked down and the frame was broken all the way through. Have no idea how long it has been like that. No dissing KTM this is a beater bike that belongs in a dumpster...
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Travis_Hudson 11/12/2012 6:32am
11/12/2012 6:32am
Some prefer Steele to aluminum......I know on some outdoor tracks my ktms felt just right because they flexed in the right places, however.... There were times on indoor tracks were you wanted it to be more ridged, and we would have to add gussets to try and get rid of some of that flex feel.
bartziokas123 11/12/2012 8:03am
11/12/2012 8:03am
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the stretched out often and had to be replaced very frequently. Im not sure if thats really the reason, just what I remember reading.
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newmann 11/12/2012 8:54am
11/12/2012 8:54am
bartziokas123 wrote:
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the...
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the stretched out often and had to be replaced very frequently. Im not sure if thats really the reason, just what I remember reading.
Frames had to be replaced frequently for who? A few select pro's who don't buy their bikes maybe, but the average Joe is still riding the wheels off of steel frame bikes at local tracks. The vintage scene is creeping it's way into the late 80's / early 90's right now and many of those bikes are finding their way back to the tracks.

I do not like the feel of an aluminum framed dirt bike any more than an aluminum framed road bicycle. Now that is a real eye opener. Talk about rattle your teeth out , ride one of those down a gravelly textured paved road for a bunch of miles.

The 2013 KTM chromoly frame uses a bunch of different shapes of tubing. Very good looking frame.
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Travis_Hudson 11/12/2012 9:11am
11/12/2012 9:11am
bartziokas123 wrote:
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the...
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the stretched out often and had to be replaced very frequently. Im not sure if thats really the reason, just what I remember reading.
newmann wrote:
Frames had to be replaced frequently for who? A few select pro's who don't buy their bikes maybe, but the average Joe is still riding the...
Frames had to be replaced frequently for who? A few select pro's who don't buy their bikes maybe, but the average Joe is still riding the wheels off of steel frame bikes at local tracks. The vintage scene is creeping it's way into the late 80's / early 90's right now and many of those bikes are finding their way back to the tracks.

I do not like the feel of an aluminum framed dirt bike any more than an aluminum framed road bicycle. Now that is a real eye opener. Talk about rattle your teeth out , ride one of those down a gravelly textured paved road for a bunch of miles.

The 2013 KTM chromoly frame uses a bunch of different shapes of tubing. Very good looking frame.
You hit the nail on the head with the bicycle analogy......very true, that is the best way for the average person to get the idea.Smile

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Markopolo400 11/12/2012 8:18pm
11/12/2012 8:18pm
Fearo wrote:
Not to hijack the thread but De Carli tried a carbon frame on Tony Cairoli's YZ250F back in the day. I believe they said it was...
Not to hijack the thread but De Carli tried a carbon frame on Tony Cairoli's YZ250F back in the day. I believe they said it was a huge weight loss and the bike felt incredible to ride. However, they could never consider using it in racing because they would have to change the frame every other hour because the carbon would start to flex making the bike unrideable.
Carbon fiber is incredibly stiff...
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exsarg 11/12/2012 8:54pm
11/12/2012 8:54pm
bartziokas123 wrote:
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the...
I was always under the impression that steel frames were better because they offered flex. The reason they went away from steel frames is because the stretched out often and had to be replaced very frequently. Im not sure if thats really the reason, just what I remember reading.
homo joe dont know shit
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VRR7 11/13/2012 1:17am
11/13/2012 1:17am
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ?

Honda does the same to keep cost down :

"Keeping development and manufacturing costs under control meant a steel tube rather than aluminium beam frame was developed for the CB500 range with Honda working to design in enough strength with flexibility to keep vibration down, the engine acting as a stressed member - reinforcing frame rigidity."

CRF150 - Same to keep costs down they used steel -

Ducati eventually moved to ALi Frame in MotoGP this year and improved - Now MotoGp is Mostly ALi Frames -

Premium DownHill Mountain Bike is Motly Ali

Tob Sports Cars Same -

Since ALi has now proven statistically it is the performance choice.

Seems the only reason KTM is not going the dirrection of Ali is because of Cost -
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Derpin' DJ 11/13/2012 2:04am
11/13/2012 2:04am
The steel KTM use for their frames would have to be a higher grade than what they use for non-performance bikes like the ones you mentioned.
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VRR7 11/13/2012 2:54am
11/13/2012 2:54am
Derpin' DJ wrote:
The steel KTM use for their frames would have to be a higher grade than what they use for non-performance bikes like the ones you mentioned.
Sure Chromoly - The Question of this thread is why does KTM use Steel when the rest of the world - Cars - MTB - Road Bike - MX etc etc have moved toward ALI frames for performance advantage ? And use Steel for Economy is the Global trend. I doubt they do it becuase it is more expensive - My postulate is that one major reason is Cost . KTM is has already a Euro - Dollar exchange rate Pricing problem - If they add another expense ie ALi it moves their profit in the wrong direction - Supplying the USA market against the exchange rate and having to compete with other manufacturers prices cost them a lot of Shares to Bajaj to almost Baja takes control of KTM.

Spot the Chromoly Frame here :

http://www.vitalmtb.com/product/main?category_page=true&discontinued=fa…
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Roscoe33 11/13/2012 6:28am
11/13/2012 6:28am
VRR7 wrote:
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ? Honda does the same to keep cost down : "Keeping development and manufacturing...
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ?

Honda does the same to keep cost down :

"Keeping development and manufacturing costs under control meant a steel tube rather than aluminium beam frame was developed for the CB500 range with Honda working to design in enough strength with flexibility to keep vibration down, the engine acting as a stressed member - reinforcing frame rigidity."

CRF150 - Same to keep costs down they used steel -

Ducati eventually moved to ALi Frame in MotoGP this year and improved - Now MotoGp is Mostly ALi Frames -

Premium DownHill Mountain Bike is Motly Ali

Tob Sports Cars Same -

Since ALi has now proven statistically it is the performance choice.

Seems the only reason KTM is not going the dirrection of Ali is because of Cost -
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves.
Ever seen somebody try and fix a aluminium frame in the pits ?
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VRR7 11/13/2012 6:36am
11/13/2012 6:36am
VRR7 wrote:
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ? Honda does the same to keep cost down : "Keeping development and manufacturing...
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ?

Honda does the same to keep cost down :

"Keeping development and manufacturing costs under control meant a steel tube rather than aluminium beam frame was developed for the CB500 range with Honda working to design in enough strength with flexibility to keep vibration down, the engine acting as a stressed member - reinforcing frame rigidity."

CRF150 - Same to keep costs down they used steel -

Ducati eventually moved to ALi Frame in MotoGP this year and improved - Now MotoGp is Mostly ALi Frames -

Premium DownHill Mountain Bike is Motly Ali

Tob Sports Cars Same -

Since ALi has now proven statistically it is the performance choice.

Seems the only reason KTM is not going the dirrection of Ali is because of Cost -
Roscoe33 wrote:
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves. Ever seen somebody try and...
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves.
Ever seen somebody try and fix a aluminium frame in the pits ?
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly

Honda won 200 or So AMA championships they use Ali

Guess if your theory is correct then Ali is they way to go ? Riders Feedback from Winning results = Ali
newmann
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newmann 11/13/2012 6:50am
11/13/2012 6:50am
VRR7 wrote:
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ? Honda does the same to keep cost down : "Keeping development and manufacturing...
Cost - How much would the KTM cost if it where ALI ?

Honda does the same to keep cost down :

"Keeping development and manufacturing costs under control meant a steel tube rather than aluminium beam frame was developed for the CB500 range with Honda working to design in enough strength with flexibility to keep vibration down, the engine acting as a stressed member - reinforcing frame rigidity."

CRF150 - Same to keep costs down they used steel -

Ducati eventually moved to ALi Frame in MotoGP this year and improved - Now MotoGp is Mostly ALi Frames -

Premium DownHill Mountain Bike is Motly Ali

Tob Sports Cars Same -

Since ALi has now proven statistically it is the performance choice.

Seems the only reason KTM is not going the dirrection of Ali is because of Cost -
Roscoe33 wrote:
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves. Ever seen somebody try and...
no, KTM listens to racer opinions and based on winning results, if it was cost savings they wouldn't use $$$ valves.
Ever seen somebody try and fix a aluminium frame in the pits ?
VRR7 wrote:
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly Honda won 200 or So AMA...
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly

Honda won 200 or So AMA championships they use Ali

Guess if your theory is correct then Ali is they way to go ? Riders Feedback from Winning results = Ali
Honda did what? Hell, the aluminum frame was such a piece of shit that McGrath refuse to ride it. Jeremy went on to win championships on the steel framed Yamaha's. RC won a stack of races and championships on steel before and after the aluminum framed Honda days. Yamaha hasn't exactly been killing it on aluminum. KTM dominates off road the world over, world championship mx and now they are at the top in the US MX and SX series. Lighter than aluminum and easier to access the mechanicals to properly maintain a race bike. Works for me.Wink
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VRR7 11/13/2012 6:51am
11/13/2012 6:51am


458 Italia

KTM can convince their Target Market bu they will have a tough time convincing the rest of the world big players that steel is still the deal.
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JackLHyde 11/13/2012 6:54am
11/13/2012 6:54am
VRR7 wrote:
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly Honda won 200 or So AMA...
Interesting theory - KTM won 1 AMA supercross just recently and how many AMA Outdoors ? - They use Chromoly

Honda won 200 or So AMA championships they use Ali

Guess if your theory is correct then Ali is they way to go ? Riders Feedback from Winning results = Ali
You totally throw out the window where KTM comes from. The brand was build on european soil. Doesn't matter which starting gate you're looking at here, it's mostly orange behind.
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Racer92 11/13/2012 6:58am
11/13/2012 6:58am
zookie wrote:
Because they suck! Expensive, don't feel good, hard to work on, etc.
This

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