Local Racing Classes by Qualifying Times?

imoto34
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6/19/2018 5:27pm
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay fast as long as the ranch is the ranch.

Could any one add more to this or will it stay the same? It will stay the same, ask DC.
Solidkm
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6/19/2018 5:43pm
imoto34 wrote:
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay...
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay fast as long as the ranch is the ranch.

Could any one add more to this or will it stay the same? It will stay the same, ask DC.
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in C class, throwing scrubs, and posting equivalent times as the local B and Class is the same as me going to my local middle school and destroying the 4th graders in dodgeball.
Solidkm
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6/19/2018 5:49pm
I’m sure there are plenty of tracks across the country that run their own series, have non AMA sanctioned “fun” races or one-off events. Evansville MX near Berwick PA and Aztec in Colorado Springs comes to mind. Having both ama seres’ and their own series’. This shit is always packed. And this Shit keeps the lights on. They could implement such a format, even for a trial run, and there would be plenty of non LL C class heroes there to fund it, patronize the idea, and enjoy the change of pace.
Johnny Depp
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6/19/2018 5:56pm
imoto34 wrote:
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay...
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay fast as long as the ranch is the ranch.

Could any one add more to this or will it stay the same? It will stay the same, ask DC.
Solidkm wrote:
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in...
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in C class, throwing scrubs, and posting equivalent times as the local B and Class is the same as me going to my local middle school and destroying the 4th graders in dodgeball.
Don't get your panties in a wad, the title states "local" not LL. The LL races have some very long tentacles, and it's time that the rest of us not still trying to be a World Champion ENJOY MX too.

The Shop

Solidkm
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6/19/2018 6:03pm
imoto34 wrote:
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay...
This topic has zero merit. Weekend warriors versus the AMA sanctions ams wanting to live the dream at LL... Bottom line is C class will stay fast as long as the ranch is the ranch.

Could any one add more to this or will it stay the same? It will stay the same, ask DC.
Solidkm wrote:
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in...
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in C class, throwing scrubs, and posting equivalent times as the local B and Class is the same as me going to my local middle school and destroying the 4th graders in dodgeball.
Don't get your panties in a wad, the title states "local" not LL. The LL races have some very long tentacles, and it's time that the...
Don't get your panties in a wad, the title states "local" not LL. The LL races have some very long tentacles, and it's time that the rest of us not still trying to be a World Champion ENJOY MX too.
That’s what I said. Unless you’re talking to him.
wfo4ever
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NC US
6/19/2018 6:13pm
It worked well at Cross Creek when Shawn tried it. Made for competitive classes with some actual racing. Well, except for the Loretta wannabes who whined...
It worked well at Cross Creek when Shawn tried it. Made for competitive classes with some actual racing.

Well, except for the Loretta wannabes who whined that it might screw up their precious RPI and someone might use it to protest them when they showed up in Tennessee to ride the C class.

In my opinion, racing has died off due to the time requirement for a day of racing. 48 classes, start at daylight, end at sundown, get a 4 lap first moto, 3 laps second moto, and wait all day to race. Blame it on the Loretta's class structure that promoters try to follow and trying to bleed 200 entries out of 75 actual riders that show up in order to break even.
That is true. Nothing like wasting a whole day to ride a few laps with a bunch of sandbaggers. The C riders are doing the same jumps and similar lap tims as the A riders. That does not help getting new riders into racing. Lack of new riders on any type of motorcycle is the main problem. How many kids own a motorcycle in your neighborhood and where do they ride their bikes at?
Kawi15
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6/19/2018 6:43pm
I think it is an interesting concept. I would like to try it a few times just to see how it would work out.
Johnny Depp
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6/19/2018 6:45pm
Solidkm wrote:
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in...
You have no merit. And I would argue there are a lot more weekend warriors than LL chasers. Especially in the older classes. Being dominant in C class, throwing scrubs, and posting equivalent times as the local B and Class is the same as me going to my local middle school and destroying the 4th graders in dodgeball.
Don't get your panties in a wad, the title states "local" not LL. The LL races have some very long tentacles, and it's time that the...
Don't get your panties in a wad, the title states "local" not LL. The LL races have some very long tentacles, and it's time that the rest of us not still trying to be a World Champion ENJOY MX too.
Solidkm wrote:
That’s what I said. Unless you’re talking to him.
To him
MotoX85
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6/19/2018 7:11pm
Is anyone doing this already? What the sport has now was established long before the digital age, and is obsolete IMO. The concept of allowing contestants...
Is anyone doing this already?

What the sport has now was established long before the digital age, and is obsolete IMO. The concept of allowing contestants to choose their own level of competition is comical. Likewise, the concept of a different class for every variety anyone can think of is seemingly benefitting the Organizers and the "Everybody gets a Trophy" crowd and chasing away the masses due to the timeframe.

Call me crazy (again) but I believe practice riders and riders that have strayed to other forms of competition, as well as current racers would enjoy a short day, full gates, elbow to elbow competition with riders their same speed. Track riders are already riding with different age riders and bike sizes and types.

In the Digital age, e-timing is reasonably priced. RFID readers and tags do the job currently for a variety of race types, where they are used for results, yet the class system has remained mostly the same.

NO CLASS Racing:

*Practice/Qualifying is voluntarily divided into estimated speed RIDE GROUPS where lap times are compiled, similar to open practice days with traditional a A/B group, a Vet group, a Mini group, a Novice group etc. depending on the number of entries. In future events riders will generally know where they fit in.

*The Organizers look at the Overall results and ASSIGN riders to RIDE GROUPS as they see fit. Assume 100 riders, it could be 2 of 50, 3 of 33, 4 of 20 or even 40 group 1, 40 group 2 and 20 Group 3. The uncertainty of how the classes are split basically eliminates SANDBAGGING since you don't know how the classes will be cut up. The qualifying could also be worth 1 point per position in an Olympic scoring system to act as a points paying session.

*RIDE GROUPS allow greater flexibility in how the event is run, since time is freed up without multiple classes.
2-30 minute motos, 3-20 minute motos, 1-30, 1-20 and 1-10 minute moto or any other combination becomes possible. Everyone should get a minimum of 1 hour racing plus qualifying/practice time on the seat. The need for joining multiple classes to get enough riding time, and having to wait for the race order while they try to keep riders riding multiple classes from going back to back is eliminated.

The crazy part is putting this in front of Vital... Cuss and Discuss?
Youre exactly correct, been saying this for years. RC cars do it this way also. to qualifying and then you are assigned a class by your times.

The other solution is stop having C class national champions. Which the powers that be will never let that happen.

Beginner class national champ has a nice ring to it.
kage173
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6/19/2018 7:29pm
Harlingen TX? The home of Steve Wise! https://www.facebook.com/The-Grove-Motocross-Track-147690448627116/ Great input, It sounds like it worked out great and like you said, it was a Blast. Fun...
Harlingen TX? The home of Steve Wise! https://www.facebook.com/The-Grove-Motocross-Track-147690448627116/

Great input, It sounds like it worked out great and like you said, it was a Blast. Fun is what we are really in this for!
You got it bro. Wow you know your moto. He is a friend of the family.
6/19/2018 8:26pm
Way back in the old days (late70s early 80s) around Arkansas, Louisiana and Texas, a lot of tracks ran split programs. 50s, 60s, 80s, Beginners and Novices in the morning with practice at 8am. Racing followed. At noon, the Pros, Intermediates and Vets showed up for practice and racing afterwards. No need to stay ALL day unless you were with someone that raced opposite of your designated class. Kids with non racing parents raced in the morning and were gone after 12. Pros, B riders and Vets slept in and showed up at noon. Of course nothing works for every set of riders. My kid raced in the morning and I raced in the afternoon. I didn't mind because I wasn't rushed taking care of him and trying to ride either before or after his race. The split program disappeared for unknown reasons. We need it back. Most riders should be at the track for less than 5 hours. I have always said that you have to shame riders in order to make them move up. A suggestion would be only one beginner class with free entry. That way more entry level riders could afford to race. The reward? A little PINK trophy that says "Beginner Winner". Win it and you are now a Novice. Most riders will move to Novice rather than get a pink trophy. Then the Novice class swells with riders that belong there. The sandbaggers will move to B for survival. Or get shamed into it. Want to get your numbers up? Let all your PWs race free. You say you'll lose money? Not in this world. I have yet to see a PW rider drive himself to the races. They always bring mom and dad, grandparents, brothers and sisters.....that's revenue and you'll have those riders and fans for the next 20 years.
BR8ES
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6/19/2018 10:53pm
I like the basic concept, something has to be done or the sport will continue to dwindle with participation. The C class Pros absolutely have a lot to do with people not coming back, pretty intimidating for a newb. The proposed system has to speed up the day and add more ride time too or it won't really matter more than likely. Lots of cash for little ride time as well. Current system employed by most tracks is broken.
Phillip_Lamb
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6/19/2018 11:56pm
early wrote:
The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest...
The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest in another.
thats not bad and really it would only happen if you had like 60 guys running within seconds of eachother. you dont have to take the first 40 then -cutoff-then 2nd 40 etc. you cluster them with relative times
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 7:28am
Harlingen TX? The home of Steve Wise! https://www.facebook.com/The-Grove-Motocross-Track-147690448627116/ Great input, It sounds like it worked out great and like you said, it was a Blast. Fun...
Harlingen TX? The home of Steve Wise! https://www.facebook.com/The-Grove-Motocross-Track-147690448627116/

Great input, It sounds like it worked out great and like you said, it was a Blast. Fun is what we are really in this for!
kage173 wrote:
You got it bro. Wow you know your moto. He is a friend of the family.
Thanks, I'm from Texas and old, so of course I'd know that. My wife's best friend went to High School with him. When we get this new concept kicked off in the fall, we'll invite him up to say a prayer before the race. If so I hope he'll bring his new Alta I heard he had?

So the feedback here is really good, better than expected. I'm even more convinced to take some time away from my day job and pursue this bucket list project. YOLO theory. I'm bouncing around more "classes" within ride groups, but you will end up with riders from the same "classes" in different ride groups and it doesn't seem right to give awards to people that didn't race together, but only against the clock. Sometimes old traditions just have to die.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 7:41am
Way back in the old days (late70s early 80s) around Arkansas, Louisiana and Texas, a lot of tracks ran split programs. 50s, 60s, 80s, Beginners and...
Way back in the old days (late70s early 80s) around Arkansas, Louisiana and Texas, a lot of tracks ran split programs. 50s, 60s, 80s, Beginners and Novices in the morning with practice at 8am. Racing followed. At noon, the Pros, Intermediates and Vets showed up for practice and racing afterwards. No need to stay ALL day unless you were with someone that raced opposite of your designated class. Kids with non racing parents raced in the morning and were gone after 12. Pros, B riders and Vets slept in and showed up at noon. Of course nothing works for every set of riders. My kid raced in the morning and I raced in the afternoon. I didn't mind because I wasn't rushed taking care of him and trying to ride either before or after his race. The split program disappeared for unknown reasons. We need it back. Most riders should be at the track for less than 5 hours. I have always said that you have to shame riders in order to make them move up. A suggestion would be only one beginner class with free entry. That way more entry level riders could afford to race. The reward? A little PINK trophy that says "Beginner Winner". Win it and you are now a Novice. Most riders will move to Novice rather than get a pink trophy. Then the Novice class swells with riders that belong there. The sandbaggers will move to B for survival. Or get shamed into it. Want to get your numbers up? Let all your PWs race free. You say you'll lose money? Not in this world. I have yet to see a PW rider drive himself to the races. They always bring mom and dad, grandparents, brothers and sisters.....that's revenue and you'll have those riders and fans for the next 20 years.
I remember the split programs, I was a fan since early mornings and I don't get along.

If the ride groups are separated by time each race, depending on the turnout you will likely end up in a different group each time, there would be no "kicking anyone out of a class" and that is the beauty of this concept.

With regards to mini's, no concessions are intended for them. If you are in the slowest ride group, you will be surrounded with other equally slow rides, some on big bikes, some on mini's, some women, some dual sports, some trail bikes, some old dudes on vintage bikes. For a program to be short, the track must stay full, no idle time and no small ride groups while everyone else waits. I realize this goes against the mini Dad's protectionist attitudes, but once they realize it is safe and they will have more fun and learn more riding with someone their speed rather than alone on the track, it should catch on. There would likely still be Dad's following the kid's around the track too.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 7:43am
BR8ES wrote:
I like the basic concept, something has to be done or the sport will continue to dwindle with participation. The C class Pros absolutely have a...
I like the basic concept, something has to be done or the sport will continue to dwindle with participation. The C class Pros absolutely have a lot to do with people not coming back, pretty intimidating for a newb. The proposed system has to speed up the day and add more ride time too or it won't really matter more than likely. Lots of cash for little ride time as well. Current system employed by most tracks is broken.
That summarizes it, a faster short event day, and enough seat time to get your money's worth and go home tired. Close competition is a side benefit, and spectator attendance would likely increase also.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 7:46am
early wrote:
The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest...
The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest in another.
thats not bad and really it would only happen if you had like 60 guys running within seconds of eachother. you dont have to take the...
thats not bad and really it would only happen if you had like 60 guys running within seconds of eachother. you dont have to take the first 40 then -cutoff-then 2nd 40 etc. you cluster them with relative times
Phillip you are right. The software (that would be live on your cell phone) will point you in the right direction of where to split the ride groups based upon differentials. You don't need to just take the total entries and divide by 4 for group sizes.
billyp330
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6/20/2018 7:59am
The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a...
The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a Scramble start, with 100's of riders hitting an MX track at the same time, it is cool and not a death trap. They do however use dead engine starts, which the Alta riders laugh at. Smile Have you ever seen the Beach races? Thousands taking off at the same time on the same course. Semi Organized Chaos. It's quite a spectacle, and fairly safe as far as dirt bikes go.
Have you been on a moto track with 50 riders before? I have and it is super sketchy. You can not have that many people on a local moto track without expecting some serious crashes. Every HS i have been to files the riders through tight woods before they enter the moto track to help separate people. Also, you are talking about a course that is 6 miles or so long vs a 1.5 mile moto track. Big difference.

Also, typical moto racers are intense and want to charge straight through to checkers as moto is by nature a closed course, in your face, all out race where typical HS people are a bit more mellow and pace themselves to finish the long, slower paced course. I'm not saying all are like that as the top guys in HS are balls out the entire race, but im talking majority. This is why people are typically moto racers or HS racers. Yes, there is some cross over, but again im talking majority. Most people that race with me at local moto tracks are not there for HS races, and even more of the HS people are not showing up for the moto races. Some might argue its because of the format differences, but i think you would have to be short sided to not see the difference in the type of racing in general and the types of people that attend them.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 8:30am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2018 8:32am
The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a...
The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a Scramble start, with 100's of riders hitting an MX track at the same time, it is cool and not a death trap. They do however use dead engine starts, which the Alta riders laugh at. Smile Have you ever seen the Beach races? Thousands taking off at the same time on the same course. Semi Organized Chaos. It's quite a spectacle, and fairly safe as far as dirt bikes go.
billyp330 wrote:
Have you been on a moto track with 50 riders before? I have and it is super sketchy. You can not have that many people on...
Have you been on a moto track with 50 riders before? I have and it is super sketchy. You can not have that many people on a local moto track without expecting some serious crashes. Every HS i have been to files the riders through tight woods before they enter the moto track to help separate people. Also, you are talking about a course that is 6 miles or so long vs a 1.5 mile moto track. Big difference.

Also, typical moto racers are intense and want to charge straight through to checkers as moto is by nature a closed course, in your face, all out race where typical HS people are a bit more mellow and pace themselves to finish the long, slower paced course. I'm not saying all are like that as the top guys in HS are balls out the entire race, but im talking majority. This is why people are typically moto racers or HS racers. Yes, there is some cross over, but again im talking majority. Most people that race with me at local moto tracks are not there for HS races, and even more of the HS people are not showing up for the moto races. Some might argue its because of the format differences, but i think you would have to be short sided to not see the difference in the type of racing in general and the types of people that attend them.
Moto gates have 40 slots, 10 or 25% more is not likely to create carnage. For other formats than MX, you can do hand on helmet or lemans starts to break things up at the start.

I understand the concern with conditioning and ability to safely go all out on MX tracks. The Triple Crown format of 10 min./20 min./30 min. may work better. There is no getting around the fact that more seat time must be offered, or the riders that sign up for 3 classes will never be onboard. Most of the riders capable of extended high physical output will also be the riders qualifying in Group 1, and so on, so that will work itself out. It's a legit concern seeing as there is no real history of this type of concept, and considerations for weather conditions may play into the format.

This idea is a step in the direction of attracting off road riders to MX, and they are used to longer races. It is the MX guys who will be harder to convince, since they believe that only Herlings is capable of 30 minutes flat out. I know plenty of people who practice MX for an hour without stopping as a training technique, 2 weeks ago I watched one pro do 10 laps never sitting down once as training. It will sort itself out IMO.

My bigger concern in attracting the off road and vintage crowd back to MX (or to try it for the 1st time) is the tracks. The deep prep and extreme jumps turn them totally off. Most likely you would have to allow riders to skip jumps and ride around them on the water truck lane, and ease up on the deep prep and over watering.
Carrie998
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6/20/2018 8:41am
I really like the idea! I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses so this may have been brought up already, but wouldn't this format help keep people from getting bumped out of their class at LL? Because of the fact that the class (1, 2, 3...) that you would be racing on that particular day would be determined by the speed of the competitors that showed up for that race? I typically only race once or twice a year because of all of the down time, with this format I could defiantly see myself getting back into it more.
BR8ES
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6/20/2018 8:46am
if there were 50 riders on a track, more laps would have to be part of the program or people would be bent about getting caught up in the mass. The track would have to be capable of handling a full gate, let alone over that...some tracks would be a certifiable nightmare with more than 30 riders.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 8:48am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2018 8:49am
Carrie998 wrote:
I really like the idea! I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses so this may have been brought up already, but wouldn't...
I really like the idea! I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses so this may have been brought up already, but wouldn't this format help keep people from getting bumped out of their class at LL? Because of the fact that the class (1, 2, 3...) that you would be racing on that particular day would be determined by the speed of the competitors that showed up for that race? I typically only race once or twice a year because of all of the down time, with this format I could defiantly see myself getting back into it more.
That is part of the idea with ride groups rather than classes. The groups are a moving target depending on the number of total entries and speeds. No way to directly tie it to A or B or C so therefore no risk of someone's eligibilty AFAIK? Riders will benefit by not riding out front half a lap ahead and not being challenged by someone their own speed or slightly faster. Part time Bi-Annual warriors will also not feel like a fish out of water and won't have to try to decide what class they should fit in now.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 8:51am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2018 8:52am
BR8ES wrote:
if there were 50 riders on a track, more laps would have to be part of the program or people would be bent about getting caught...
if there were 50 riders on a track, more laps would have to be part of the program or people would be bent about getting caught up in the mass. The track would have to be capable of handling a full gate, let alone over that...some tracks would be a certifiable nightmare with more than 30 riders.
With an hour of ride time, and 2 or 3 motos (you can also count qualifying as a moto score) there should be plenty of time to assert you skills if you get a 2nd row bad start. Again, 40 rider gates are the norm, 50 is not some kind of tipping point.
billyp330
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6/20/2018 10:19am
SlowOldGuy wrote:
I see this every year on here, but the times don't really bear this out at the regionals this year. Sure, a top national C rider...
I see this every year on here, but the times don't really bear this out at the regionals this year. Sure, a top national C rider is going to be faster than a local C rider but I've been to hundreds of races in the last decade and I have never been to a race where the top C rider was competitive with the top A riders. I took the average laptime of the top three riders in all three motos of 450C, 450B, and Open Pro Sport at three of the regionals. Here is what I found:


WW Ranch

Open Pro Sport - 1:48
450B - 1:51
450C - 2:02


Redbud

Open Pro Sport - 2:01
450B - 2:10
450C - 2:19

Unadilla

Open Pro Sport - 2:02
450B - 2:07
450C - 2:15

Looks about like it should to me.
Exactly.

Seems like people that complain about sandbagging are mislead that their local "B" and "A" guys actually belong in those respective classes. Anyone can bump themselves up, and most dont truly belong in those classes as they just are not good enough.

Also, its funny how these people complaining about sandbagging keep trying to use the "new" racer argument, yet they themselves are not new racers, yet apparently all race in C class and get beat a lot by "sandbaggers".
BR8ES
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6/20/2018 10:34am
BR8ES wrote:
if there were 50 riders on a track, more laps would have to be part of the program or people would be bent about getting caught...
if there were 50 riders on a track, more laps would have to be part of the program or people would be bent about getting caught up in the mass. The track would have to be capable of handling a full gate, let alone over that...some tracks would be a certifiable nightmare with more than 30 riders.
With an hour of ride time, and 2 or 3 motos (you can also count qualifying as a moto score) there should be plenty of time...
With an hour of ride time, and 2 or 3 motos (you can also count qualifying as a moto score) there should be plenty of time to assert you skills if you get a 2nd row bad start. Again, 40 rider gates are the norm, 50 is not some kind of tipping point.
of course on the rider count/gate, just saying some tracks have no business with 40 riders on the track. Dimensionally challenged you know? With rider turnout the way it is, motos could be pretty long, days shorter and riders would get there fill, maybe too much! I would love to see an area try something like this and see what it does with old riders and new. Theory is great, now someone has to take the chance.
Johnny Depp
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6/20/2018 10:35am
Whenever the status quo is challenged there will be fear. It is a normal reaction to change.
Sandbagging is only one area affected. Riders that dislike the concept will vote with their wallets. This thread and everyone’s input is invaluable in foreseeing obstacles and the harder the challenges the better. Keep it coming!
billyp330
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6/20/2018 10:37am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2018 10:43am
The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a...
The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a Scramble start, with 100's of riders hitting an MX track at the same time, it is cool and not a death trap. They do however use dead engine starts, which the Alta riders laugh at. Smile Have you ever seen the Beach races? Thousands taking off at the same time on the same course. Semi Organized Chaos. It's quite a spectacle, and fairly safe as far as dirt bikes go.
billyp330 wrote:
Have you been on a moto track with 50 riders before? I have and it is super sketchy. You can not have that many people on...
Have you been on a moto track with 50 riders before? I have and it is super sketchy. You can not have that many people on a local moto track without expecting some serious crashes. Every HS i have been to files the riders through tight woods before they enter the moto track to help separate people. Also, you are talking about a course that is 6 miles or so long vs a 1.5 mile moto track. Big difference.

Also, typical moto racers are intense and want to charge straight through to checkers as moto is by nature a closed course, in your face, all out race where typical HS people are a bit more mellow and pace themselves to finish the long, slower paced course. I'm not saying all are like that as the top guys in HS are balls out the entire race, but im talking majority. This is why people are typically moto racers or HS racers. Yes, there is some cross over, but again im talking majority. Most people that race with me at local moto tracks are not there for HS races, and even more of the HS people are not showing up for the moto races. Some might argue its because of the format differences, but i think you would have to be short sided to not see the difference in the type of racing in general and the types of people that attend them.
Moto gates have 40 slots, 10 or 25% more is not likely to create carnage. For other formats than MX, you can do hand on helmet...
Moto gates have 40 slots, 10 or 25% more is not likely to create carnage. For other formats than MX, you can do hand on helmet or lemans starts to break things up at the start.

I understand the concern with conditioning and ability to safely go all out on MX tracks. The Triple Crown format of 10 min./20 min./30 min. may work better. There is no getting around the fact that more seat time must be offered, or the riders that sign up for 3 classes will never be onboard. Most of the riders capable of extended high physical output will also be the riders qualifying in Group 1, and so on, so that will work itself out. It's a legit concern seeing as there is no real history of this type of concept, and considerations for weather conditions may play into the format.

This idea is a step in the direction of attracting off road riders to MX, and they are used to longer races. It is the MX guys who will be harder to convince, since they believe that only Herlings is capable of 30 minutes flat out. I know plenty of people who practice MX for an hour without stopping as a training technique, 2 weeks ago I watched one pro do 10 laps never sitting down once as training. It will sort itself out IMO.

My bigger concern in attracting the off road and vintage crowd back to MX (or to try it for the 1st time) is the tracks. The deep prep and extreme jumps turn them totally off. Most likely you would have to allow riders to skip jumps and ride around them on the water truck lane, and ease up on the deep prep and over watering.
My local tracks have 32 gates at most, are roughly 25ft wide, and are just over a mile long. They can not handle 50 riders during practice, let alone 50 racers. There is a significant difference between practice and racing.

Moto has a starting gate. No hands on helmet or lemans start.

Woods racers are use to long races on a woods/HS course not a MOTO track. Big difference. A lot of really good woods racers couldnt do 5 laps at full speed on moto track. Like i stated earlier, there is a major difference in how one has to race a moto track compared to a woods course. Some can do both, but even at the highest level we see how different it is. Russel is pretty dominant in GNCC but he wouldnt come close to winning a national. Just as Eli is dominate in moto right now and KR would spank him in GNCC. Its just different.

I'd love to get Woods guys racing Moto, but i just dont see it happening as majority do woods racing for 2 major reasons. NO jumps, and less pressure/less intense close course racing. Of course a lot will claim riding time, but ask those same people to practice moto for an hr and see what they say.

Local moto needs all the moto guys that show up for practice to actually show up to race as well. Cater to what those people want and you should hopefully get more racers showing up. Again, biggest complaint is 12hrs of sitting at the track for them to do there 20 mins of track time. That doesnt mean they need more track time (as most cant handle that like i stated earlier) it means they need less time sitting around waiting.

Edit: Also just wanted to say that i love the idea of doing timed qualifying to determine classes (thought of it myself before you started this topic). Would love having 30 guys on the line that are relatively close in speed, but its just not practical for most local moto tracks.

I would like 30 mins motos as well, as i dont get good starts, take a while to get up to speed, and would take pride in training for long motos. I just dont see majority of local racers liking that at all based on my experience with the moto racers in my area.
Solidkm
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Aurora, CO US
6/20/2018 11:14am
billyp330 wrote:
My local tracks have 32 gates at most, are roughly 25ft wide, and are just over a mile long. They can not handle 50 riders during...
My local tracks have 32 gates at most, are roughly 25ft wide, and are just over a mile long. They can not handle 50 riders during practice, let alone 50 racers. There is a significant difference between practice and racing.

Moto has a starting gate. No hands on helmet or lemans start.

Woods racers are use to long races on a woods/HS course not a MOTO track. Big difference. A lot of really good woods racers couldnt do 5 laps at full speed on moto track. Like i stated earlier, there is a major difference in how one has to race a moto track compared to a woods course. Some can do both, but even at the highest level we see how different it is. Russel is pretty dominant in GNCC but he wouldnt come close to winning a national. Just as Eli is dominate in moto right now and KR would spank him in GNCC. Its just different.

I'd love to get Woods guys racing Moto, but i just dont see it happening as majority do woods racing for 2 major reasons. NO jumps, and less pressure/less intense close course racing. Of course a lot will claim riding time, but ask those same people to practice moto for an hr and see what they say.

Local moto needs all the moto guys that show up for practice to actually show up to race as well. Cater to what those people want and you should hopefully get more racers showing up. Again, biggest complaint is 12hrs of sitting at the track for them to do there 20 mins of track time. That doesnt mean they need more track time (as most cant handle that like i stated earlier) it means they need less time sitting around waiting.

Edit: Also just wanted to say that i love the idea of doing timed qualifying to determine classes (thought of it myself before you started this topic). Would love having 30 guys on the line that are relatively close in speed, but its just not practical for most local moto tracks.

I would like 30 mins motos as well, as i dont get good starts, take a while to get up to speed, and would take pride in training for long motos. I just dont see majority of local racers liking that at all based on my experience with the moto racers in my area.
I stopped reading and listening at “a lot of really good Woods racers couldn’t do 5 laps at full speed around a Mx track”. That’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever seen on vital.
billyp330
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Dorset, OH US
6/20/2018 11:41am
Solidkm wrote:
I stopped reading and listening at “a lot of really good Woods racers couldn’t do 5 laps at full speed around a Mx track”. That’s the...
I stopped reading and listening at “a lot of really good Woods racers couldn’t do 5 laps at full speed around a Mx track”. That’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever seen on vital.
Sorry you had to stop listening to whatever you were listening to when reading my comment....

"That’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever seen on vital." That statement is asinine.

My statement may be a bit exaggerated, depending on your idea of a "really good" woods racer, but it was relative to my experience. I know guys who i consider "really good" in the woods (they beat me by a considerable amount in a 1hr woods race) that can not hang with me in a 5 lap moto race and are tired.
BR8ES
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6/20/2018 11:50am
RMXA has a ridiculously long day and way too many classes, many are not even close to full, couple that with the cost of second class just to ride a bit more people tend to not go racing, More track time would be a hit, instead of 4 laps, maybe 6...etc. SRAC is mostly a shadow these days.

Some woods guys ride MX and go well, just the same the other way around.

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