Local Racing Classes by Qualifying Times?

billyp330 wrote:

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the...

If people come to race motocross for the first time and they dont come back, because they got lapped in C class then they picked the wrong sport. And really should just give up on any sport, because obviously they are not a competitive type of person.

I dont believe for a second that racers arent showing up simply because of "sandbagging". Other then the OPs solution to sandbagging (using lap times to create classes, which is the only true way to place people in appropriate skill level based classes) every other solution is to force people up a class when they start winning or being top 3. Think about that for second...Wont that mean everyone will eventually have to move up? Not enough new racers come in every year to keep C class going. If you get a small group of new racers then maybe you could just give them their own class as needed?

Also, just want to point out that all these people on here crying about sandbaggers are no different then sandbaggers. They are upset because they cant win in the lowest available class and so therefore the people that are beating them are "sandbaggers". These "sandbaggers" are racing the lowest available class so they can win or at least have a better chance of winning. Seems to be the same exact thing to me with the exception that the "sandbaggers" actually keep showing up to race, while the people crying about sandbagging just stick to practice days and crying on vital so they can avoid getting beat.

Solidkm wrote:

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX...

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX standards as much. I feel you on starting at the bottom, being competitive, getting better, faster, fitter each race.

I personally would rather run mid pack B, in theory. Then win C. I look at C as the trenches. And i wanted to earn my way out of it. That trophy that reads 1st place, 250 C doesn’t mean anything to me. Thats just me. I seem to be the anomaly. I pushed myself to B, Due to career moves, Military time etc, I’ve never been able to attend enough races to accumulate enough points per season to actually point out. But the right thing for me to do is enter B. Whereas as points wise, I could milk the system, and keep entering C. I could prob manage my work leave, run the entire season, and Win C class. And since I’ve never done that, on paper I’m “new” to Racing. So even though I haven’t a championship to my name, I’ve raced quite a bit here and there through the years. I’m not a beginner. And to enter C class would be sandbagging. I check myself. Other dudes don’t share that self pride, the c class trophy means more to them, than the pride of earning their way out of C class. And scoring in a faster class/challenge. And since they only participate in a select number of races, they never point out of C and no one stops them for kicking ass in C for six years. This is abuse of the system. When you’re throwing whips and the C class winner is besting the B class winners lap times and cumulative, that’s a problem and needs to have his ass beat. i get it tho, it’s amateur racing, and there is going to be abuse at all levels.

billyp330 wrote:

I get what your saying but i guess the bigger problem is there is no incentive for most to move up to B class if they...

I get what your saying but i guess the bigger problem is there is no incentive for most to move up to B class if they want to race competitively as the OEMs offer the same contingency for the most part.You say you do it for self pride, but how can you have self pride about racing B class when most of the B class riders are slower then the C class? I have raced several races locally over the years where i would of placed better in B class then C class so my self pride keeps me in C. I race C simply because its more competitive then B at my local races typically and because when i do want to go race a big am event i clearly belong in C.

Its kind of ironic that people on here are crying about sandbaggers at local races as it takes away from those that are just there racing for fun, but why care so much about the positions you lost due to those sandbaggers if your just racing for fun? I race for fun so i sign up for the biggest class that my age and bike displacement allow, 450/Open C. Sometimes I can win and catch and beat the 3 or 4 "B" riders, sometimes i get destroyed and get like 10th. It all depends on who shows up and how I'm feeling that day. One thing that is consistent is that I go there to have fun and challenge myself. Typically i am challenged just fine in C and a lot of times would be less challenged in B so i stick with C. Plus, when i do decide to try a big race i feel like i have chance at actually being competitive instead of just another lapper whom doesnt really belong with the top B riders.

Racer111 wrote:

So I’m guessing got beat in the C class by a guy he believes should be in B class. There is one problem. You will have...

So I’m guessing got beat in the C class by a guy he believes should be in B class.

There is one problem. You will have people sand bag their practice or qualifying time to get in the class they want and then tear it up once it’s race time. It’s almost impossible to stop sandbagging.

The actual promoters are the ones that can be the best deterrent. They see a guy in the race that is sandbagging, no points for you in the 1st Moto and you’re bumped up to the next class for Moto 2. If they all started doing that, it would help. There is a promoter here in NC that does that. He doesn’t play around with sandbagging.

TSCHAM101 wrote:

this is all we need. and honestly, i dont race much other than in Vet Series.. And i do so because they respect each other and...

this is all we need. and honestly, i dont race much other than in Vet Series.. And i do so because they respect each other and realize that we all need to go to work on Monday still, and its easy to gauge what class you should be in.. If promoters did lap times, i would race more series, like the transworld stuff. But its not fun to line up to a gate with people who should not be on the gate based on lap times. the variance for lap times should be about 10seconds.. and if you get caught sand bagging, they need to be moved to the next class or will be banned for the series and given another shot to get their act together in the next series and if they sand bag again, they are banned for the year, and can try again next year. LAP TIMES should be how classes are grouped.. enough with the 250 or 450 classes, combine them and let lap times dictate classes.. Just my opinion it would bring me out to the races again.

Solidkm wrote:

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX...

Going to have to disagree with you. I think your statement is accurate to some level. I’m referring to off road, not sure about local MX standards as much. I feel you on starting at the bottom, being competitive, getting better, faster, fitter each race.

I personally would rather run mid pack B, in theory. Then win C. I look at C as the trenches. And i wanted to earn my way out of it. That trophy that reads 1st place, 250 C doesn’t mean anything to me. Thats just me. I seem to be the anomaly. I pushed myself to B, Due to career moves, Military time etc, I’ve never been able to attend enough races to accumulate enough points per season to actually point out. But the right thing for me to do is enter B. Whereas as points wise, I could milk the system, and keep entering C. I could prob manage my work leave, run the entire season, and Win C class. And since I’ve never done that, on paper I’m “new” to Racing. So even though I haven’t a championship to my name, I’ve raced quite a bit here and there through the years. I’m not a beginner. And to enter C class would be sandbagging. I check myself. Other dudes don’t share that self pride, the c class trophy means more to them, than the pride of earning their way out of C class. And scoring in a faster class/challenge. And since they only participate in a select number of races, they never point out of C and no one stops them for kicking ass in C for six years. This is abuse of the system. When you’re throwing whips and the C class winner is besting the B class winners lap times and cumulative, that’s a problem and needs to have his ass beat. i get it tho, it’s amateur racing, and there is going to be abuse at all levels.

Johnny Depp wrote:

The idea of this concept is to take the "which class?" decision out of the rider's hands, and put it in the Organizer's. No Class Racing...

The idea of this concept is to take the "which class?" decision out of the rider's hands, and put it in the Organizer's.
No Class Racing would not be a forever "class" and that is outside our normal thought process (a paradigm shift) so it's a bit confusing. 4 "Ride Groups" cut up different each time depending on the number of entries and other decisions.

Solidkm wrote:

Johnny I am picking up what you’re putting down. And I like it. You qualify in X percentile. And you race the associated class/group that day...

Johnny I am picking up what you’re putting down. And I like it. You qualify in X percentile. And you race the associated class/group that day. Take my money.

Solidkm wrote:

Offroad could do it too. One lap. Ya so you get a taste of the course. So what. In PA State championship that was a blatant...

Offroad could do it too. One lap. Ya so you get a taste of the course. So what. In PA State championship that was a blatant NO GO. Apparently here in Colorado we do a sight lap anyway. Run it for time. Split the groups. Have some legit groups.

billyp330 wrote:

I like the idea of basing classes off of qualifying times, but agree that it isnt really plausible due to the cost of transponders. One thing...

I like the idea of basing classes off of qualifying times, but agree that it isnt really plausible due to the cost of transponders.

One thing i thought of as a solution to reduce time required at the track is to split a few classes into different time slots and run timed motos +1 lap to help keep the motos consistent. Wouldnt help with sandbagging at all obviously, but the biggest compliant i hear about local moto races are how long you have to sit around for only a handful of laps. Also cutting down number of classes. I know everyone will shut this idea down as soon as they see this and cry "track promoters will not do this because it will kill their entry numbers" and to that i say look at HS and GNCC formats. Yes there are a few different classes but they all run together and people are showing up in big numbers for these.This is how i'd imagine it:

8:00 Little bike sign up sign up
9:00 50cc practice 10 mins
9:10 65cc practice 10 mins
9:20 85cc practice 10 mins
9:30 track prep
10:00 50cc moto 1
10:15 65cc moto 1
10:30 85cc moto 1
10:45 track prep
11:15 50cc moto 2
11:30 65cc moto 2
11:45 85cc Moto 2

12:00 Big bike A,B,C sign up
1:00 A practice 10mins
1:10 B practice 10 mins
1:20 C practice 10 mins
1:30 Track Prep
2:00 A Moto 1
2:15 B moto 1
2:30 C moto 1
2:45 Track Prep
3:15 A moto 2
3:30 B moto 2
3:45 C moto 2

4:00 Schoolboy, Collegeboy, Vet Signup
5:00 Schoolboy practice 10 mins
5:10 Collegeboy practice 10 mins
5:20 Vet practice 10mins
5:30 track prep
6:00 Schoolboy moto 1
6:15 Collegeboy moto 1
6:30 Vet moto 1
6:45 track prep
7:15 Schoolboy moto 2
7:30 Collegeboy moto 2
7:45 Vet moto 2

All motos are 8 min + 1 Lap

Could mix up the groups and time slots of course but this is just an example. This would mean only a 4 hr day for racers unless they want to race more then 1 class or have kids that race as well (those people have to be there all day no matter how a promoter formats the day)

Could also split races so that two different classes are actually racing at same time (a lot of tracks do this anyway to save time and so that 3 guys arent out there all by themselves)

Example A moto 1 consist of 250A and 450A, scored separately.

If someone wants to race both 450A and 250A on same bike (would have to be the smaller bike so in this case a 250) they could and just be scored twice with respect to both classes.

thoughts?

Johnny Depp wrote:

Wow, you spent some time on that. I have done the same many times in many different ways and keep coming back to the KISS theory...

Wow, you spent some time on that. I have done the same many times in many different ways and keep coming back to the KISS theory. Keep It Simple Stupid. Absolutely no offense to your input, just my guiding statement on this project.

My vision entails 4 groups. Call them, 1,2,3,4. Call them Fast, Good, Competent and Slow Poke if you want.
Whether 50 or 250 show up, the program is the same, just the size of the groups change. Each group gets 1 hour track time, and at least 2 motos (possibly 3) and practice/ qualifying of 15 minutes. That is 5 hours. Another hour for whatever. 6 hours in and out. Stay and ride more if you want you could do another race, perhaps throw in Endurocross shortcuts, or a Scramble or Grass track loop for later in the day.

10-11:00 - Groups 1,2,3,4 all 15 minutes practice/qualifying
11:15 - Final Ride Groups posted
11:30 - Group 4 Moto 1 30 minutes
12:00 - Group 3 Moto 1 30 minutes
12:30 - Group 2 Moto 1 30 minutes
1:00 - Group 1 Moto 1 30 minutes
1:30 - Intermission track prep 30 minutes
2:00 - Group 4 Moto 2 30 minutes
2:30 - Group 3 Moto 2 30 minutes
3:00 - Group 2 Moto 2 30 minutes
3:30 - Group 4 Moto 2 30 minutes
4:00 - Go home if you want, Have a beer, or race some more in the Final event?

4:30 - ScrambleCross (random formats) All ride Groups 1 Hour.

You may note, there is no special treatment for anyone, including (heaven forbid) mini bikes. If you can do the lap time, you are in the class. If you feel the Moto's are too long, slow down.

billyp330 wrote:

I agree in a perfect world your way is the best (your not the first person to think of this) but just not practical due to...

I agree in a perfect world your way is the best (your not the first person to think of this) but just not practical due to most tracks not having a timing system in place. Again though, solving the sandbagging issue does not solve the biggest problem that local tracks are having (not enough racers). Look at GNCC and HS events that are doing well locally. You can show up, race, and be done in 3 or 4 hrs. Then have rest of the day to do w/e. Biggest complaint i hear is always lack of riding time for how long you have to be at the track for. Downsizing the number of motos (doesnt mean you have to cut classes, just group them together like HS events and score separately)and placing them in time slots cuts down the time required to go racing.

Also, i'd bet some serious money that most local moto racers will not like doing 30 min motos. The amount of lappers would be a serious problem (1 fast qualifying lap time does not equal an in shape rider necessarily) and could be very dangerous as most local guys are lucky to be able to ride for 10 mins on a moto track.

OldPro277 wrote:

Time is absolutely a deterrent . Running more classes together and scoring separately works very very well in the Hare Scrambles and GNCC world, but......here is...

Time is absolutely a deterrent . Running more classes together and scoring separately works very very well in the Hare Scrambles and GNCC world, but......here is an example. This past Sunday I raced a local Hare Scrambles , first woods race for me since 1974 (Im a moto guy ,HATE woods racing, but it kinda was fun....)and had zero idea about the format. They used the RFID electronic scoring and ran 7 different classes in my race. Sent them off in 7 separate waves, 30 secs apart. Approx 90 guys. It worked great because the track was 6+ miles long. If you tried that with moto and a typical 2 mile track, you'd obviously have chaos in short order. But I agree that something needs to be done, the local moto scene in western Pa has been dropping attendance massively for the past 10 years , while our local woods racing (AWRCS) has grown exponentially ,typically getting 400+ entries per race.
This particular Hare scrambles had a morning race 1 hour + 1 lap, and an afternoon race of the same length, so guys could conceivably run 2 classes and get about 2 and a half hours of race time and still get home hours earlier than a typical local moto race.

philG wrote:

I have never understood the US classes, everyone getting giddy over guys in 250B , when in my book , 250 B is 40 guys not...

I have never understood the US classes, everyone getting giddy over guys in 250B , when in my book , 250 B is 40 guys not fast enough to be in 250A .

We have run transponders here in the UK for ages, before that you would have a qualifying race, 160 riders in 4 40 rider heats, top 10 in each heat to A final, next 10 to B etc... A paid money and Pro points. The rest were just trophies for top 3 , in a 40 rider race.

If you have 5 riders in a class, its not a class . Fill the gate with riders of similar speed, and drop it as many times as you can , when its full.

philG wrote:

I have never understood the US classes, everyone getting giddy over guys in 250B , when in my book , 250 B is 40 guys not...

I have never understood the US classes, everyone getting giddy over guys in 250B , when in my book , 250 B is 40 guys not fast enough to be in 250A .

We have run transponders here in the UK for ages, before that you would have a qualifying race, 160 riders in 4 40 rider heats, top 10 in each heat to A final, next 10 to B etc... A paid money and Pro points. The rest were just trophies for top 3 , in a 40 rider race.

If you have 5 riders in a class, its not a class . Fill the gate with riders of similar speed, and drop it as many times as you can , when its full.

imoto34 wrote:

IF 40 not fast enough to be in A, then try a 100+ not fast enough to be in B that races C year in and...

IF 40 not fast enough to be in A, then try a 100+ not fast enough to be in B that races C year in and year out.


US C class, atleast on the east side around TN GA is as fast as most all A and B. That is the reasoning of this thread I think.

OldPro277 wrote:

Time is absolutely a deterrent . Running more classes together and scoring separately works very very well in the Hare Scrambles and GNCC world, but......here is...

Time is absolutely a deterrent . Running more classes together and scoring separately works very very well in the Hare Scrambles and GNCC world, but......here is an example. This past Sunday I raced a local Hare Scrambles , first woods race for me since 1974 (Im a moto guy ,HATE woods racing, but it kinda was fun....)and had zero idea about the format. They used the RFID electronic scoring and ran 7 different classes in my race. Sent them off in 7 separate waves, 30 secs apart. Approx 90 guys. It worked great because the track was 6+ miles long. If you tried that with moto and a typical 2 mile track, you'd obviously have chaos in short order. But I agree that something needs to be done, the local moto scene in western Pa has been dropping attendance massively for the past 10 years , while our local woods racing (AWRCS) has grown exponentially ,typically getting 400+ entries per race.
This particular Hare scrambles had a morning race 1 hour + 1 lap, and an afternoon race of the same length, so guys could conceivably run 2 classes and get about 2 and a half hours of race time and still get home hours earlier than a typical local moto race.

billyp330 wrote:

Yes, motos would have to be limited to 30-40 riders. That is why my plan had 9 groups or classes total. My local tracks are typically...

Yes, motos would have to be limited to 30-40 riders. That is why my plan had 9 groups or classes total. My local tracks are typically around 125 entries. Big weekend would be 200 riders. So that would be around 20 riders per moto if evenly split up (i know thats not likely, but theres plenty of room for different splits).

Phillip_Lamb wrote:

all of this has some merit to the idea. hold morning timing sessions. then sort races by class times making riders be within a certain range...

all of this has some merit to the idea.

hold morning timing sessions. then sort races by class times making riders be within a certain range of each other.

but no weight. to even come close to trimming out the regular sandbagging its necessary to have a national sanctioning body that every race would report results to. it would require the race promoter to have some formal training and guidance on watching for faster riders. in fact this is what the OTHG series does.

the only way this would hold up is if its enforced all the way to LL's even going as far as bumping guys the during the series.

perhaps the only way to do away with it is reduce classes. whittle down to say a 250 amatuer class and pro-am/pro class. instead of a/b/c. and to include more participants, you open how many divisions there are. say you have 3 divisions of 250 am, as each class races they are moved to a different division. after 1st race top 30% from each division are placed into division 1, next 30% div 2 etc. from here you only award a title and tropies to the top 3 of only division 1.

early wrote:

The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest...

The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest in another.

early wrote:

The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest...

The main fault in the idea is the arbitrary cutoff. Sucks that .5 seconds would potentially separate the slowest guy in one class from the fastest in another.

Solidkm wrote:

Got to draw a line somewhere. No different than an SX LCQ. that first rider to not make it may have been on the finish line...

Got to draw a line somewhere. No different than an SX LCQ. that first rider to not make it may have been on the finish line jump at the same time as the dude who snatched the last spot.

Moreover. I find that motivating. If I missed qualifying for the faster class by 1 second. Then that tells me I got work to do and I got to find just a touch more speed. In this format, qualifying for a big boy class is the first trophy. In my eyes.

kage173 wrote:

This is a great idea. Every AMA sanctioned race should be required to do this. Those transponders don't cost that much and can be covered by...

This is a great idea. Every AMA sanctioned race should be required to do this. Those transponders don't cost that much and can be covered by registration fee + deposit.

Have a buddy with a track in his yard. He holds two races/year (not AMA). He uses transponders to create the classes. It is a timed practice and if your race time is considerably less than your qual time then they penalize you (that part isn't optimal).

It is absolutely the best racing you'll ever see at a local track. Everybody grouped up because they all have similar times. And it is a blast.

OldPro277 wrote:

Johnny, can't see how 80 guys on a typical moto track at the same time would be anything but a disaster waiting to happen,particularly with varying...

Johnny, can't see how 80 guys on a typical moto track at the same time would be anything but a disaster waiting to happen,particularly with varying skill levels, but on a 6 mile woods loop, you've got your 80 guys spread out before a quarter the way thru the first lap.But I agree that there definitely can be a way to combine classes and make things a ton faster. Several of my racing buddies just quit going because of the 12 hours at the track for MAYBE 30 min race time. Entry fees, sandbagging etc were not the main problem as we are all +50 and there's no such thing as a Senior sandbagger lol, and cost is no issue because again, we are old and have a few bucks by now-----time is what we don't have....

Johnny Depp wrote:

The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a...

The groups or Motos would not have to be as limited as one would think. 2 row starts could easily be implemented, when you see a Scramble start, with 100's of riders hitting an MX track at the same time, it is cool and not a death trap. They do however use dead engine starts, which the Alta riders laugh at. Have you ever seen the Beach races? Thousands taking off at the same time on the same course. Semi Organized Chaos. It's quite a spectacle, and fairly safe as far as dirt bikes go.

BobPA wrote:

100’s of riders on an MX track, safe? Are you feeling alright man?

r103 wrote:

This was actually enforced for a full national championship in my country however it was a disaster for the most part because those who had bike...

This was actually enforced for a full national championship in my country however it was a disaster for the most part because those who had bike issues in qualifying didn’t make the cut for the class they should have been in. Championships were tarnished before the first race even began, way too much importance was placed on qualifying and those who ended up in classes lower than they should have been ended up winning all the races by about 45 seconds. I think this is something that works in theory but not in reality.

Johnny Depp wrote:

We have a Winner! Who is this track and please share more. Anything that can be learned from mistakes already made is a help to the...

We have a Winner! Who is this track and please share more. Anything that can be learned from mistakes already made is a help to the whole local racing scene. I'd particularly be interested in the details of his transponder setup?

The Positive Waves in this thread are very surprising to me for Vital. You made my day.

kage173 wrote:

It's called The Grove. I'll see if he's got any input to share. The sensor was setup at the foot of the finish jump. It kicked...

It's called The Grove. I'll see if he's got any input to share. The sensor was setup at the foot of the finish jump. It kicked out times to a laptop. He knew what normal times were for different levels of riding. Practices were self selected by people to go out and put times in. There was A/B practice, C/D, minis and then everbody else. But then the transponder did its work and it was easy to see where people belonged. If your bike broke down or you didn't make it in time you could jump in another practice and put your time in. If you couldn't make it at all, then too bad. It's the same as the gate drop.

I think only 1 time did I ever see anybody that legitimately should have been in a different class. However, because everybody else was properly placed, it was completely obvious that the guy had sandbagged. I think they threw out his first moto score and put him into the proper class, where his race times were the same as the others, for the second moto.

Granted, it's not a huge race, but it never seemed to have any problems. The rules and administration of using transponders would have to be refined for an AMA race, but it's gotta be at least as effective as what's used now.