4-Stroke technique & setup (engine braking)

cwtoyota
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Edited Date/Time 10/7/2015 4:40am
Long post, sorry but I want to be detailed.

I'm trying to get used to this whole four stroke experiment and I'm having trouble adapting to the compression braking. I realize I'm about 10 years behind the rest of the sport, but I'd like to draw on the collective experience here to find a solution.

So I have been racing two strokes since I was a teenager, mostly 250s, but at age 32 I bought a YZ125 and fell in love. I'm 35 now and still prefer the 125. I have never owned a four stroke of any kind until now. I decided before I get too old and my body starts to fall apart, I should buy a 450 and try to be on equal equipment to the guys I'm racing.

So I bought a YZ450F. I put a linkage on it and figured out some settings, it handles pretty well.

Now that I don't feel like the bike will put me on the ground, I can try to push harder and ride it more aggressively. I am an overly aggressive rider and that's a bit of an issue, but I'm working on that.

My main problem is entering turns. I find myself pulling in the clutch to avoid the compression brake and blipping the throttle (to keep it running / two-stroke habit) as I brake into some corners.

So big picture, I see 3 options:
1) Get used to it and try to develop my technique around this bike
2) Change the bike to suit my riding style a bit better
3) Sell the bike and go back to the 2-strokes.


Number 2 seems like the first approach to take while I constantly work on number 1.

I feel a lot better on my buddy's bike which is a KX450F with a Rekluse clutch.

Today, the same buddy suggested I try a higher idle speed setting. I think that seems like a good suggestion, I may give it a try. I already de-tuned the bike with a fuel/timing map to smooth the delivery.

Do you guys have any suggestions on how to change the bike, or any good ways to get comfortable with the compression braking? Is there something specific to practice? Are there any mapping changes (ignition timing?) that might help tune out some of the compression brake feeling?


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Crush
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10/6/2015 1:38am
If you are anything like me i'd almost put money on you shifting tooooooo much. I'm also a two stroke guy, love me a 125 and found I'd just be shifting for no reason. 4 strokes will rev when you think they won't and will lug the same.

Unless your track is really tight, I bet you can just ride in 3rd close to all the time. Keep your idle where it is meant to be but get used to the bike revving a bit more, and get off the brakes...

Do your breaking earlier and drive through the turn, 4 strokes like to be on the gas and keep your momentum
wwoberg
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10/6/2015 3:19am
Use the engine braking too your advantage. It's a third brake.
SwapperMX
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10/6/2015 4:32am
Some very good advice already. As for getting out of the habit of pulling in the clutch when braking, do some moto's at 50% speed and just focus on riding without using the clutch lever. Something that might take a bit of getting used to coming off a 125.
10/6/2015 4:38am
You could always get a rekluse exp 3 clutch and rid yourself of engine braking altogether. They're not super cheap but they also make the big bikes way more fun in the woods and smoother on the track.

The Shop

philG
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10/6/2015 5:01am
You can dial it out with mapping if you know what you are doing, makes a huge difference.
hillbilly
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10/6/2015 5:37am
I always have the clutch in when not applying power,its the way i rode ever bike,2 or 4 str.
1stSSPZ
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10/6/2015 5:46am
Best thing I did for my 13 YZ450f is put on a Rekluse 3.0 clutch. Well worth $399. Doesn't get rid of ALL the compression braking, but just enough!
Gringoe
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10/6/2015 7:21am
hillbilly wrote:
I always have the clutch in when not applying power,its the way i rode ever bike,2 or 4 str.
So you slide the rear wheel into every turn?
cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 8:06am
Crush wrote:
If you are anything like me i'd almost put money on you shifting tooooooo much. I'm also a two stroke guy, love me a 125 and...
If you are anything like me i'd almost put money on you shifting tooooooo much. I'm also a two stroke guy, love me a 125 and found I'd just be shifting for no reason. 4 strokes will rev when you think they won't and will lug the same.

Unless your track is really tight, I bet you can just ride in 3rd close to all the time. Keep your idle where it is meant to be but get used to the bike revving a bit more, and get off the brakes...

Do your breaking earlier and drive through the turn, 4 strokes like to be on the gas and keep your momentum
I don't think over-shifting is a problem for me, I feel like I ride through the entire RPM range on this bike.

Driving through the turn is kind of the thing I'm trying to figure out... The YZ has such an extreme transition from accelerating to decelerating it's hard to find that smooth spot without touching the clutch.

I've naturally had to modify my braking points already since this big pig goes a lot faster and doesn't slow down as quickly as the two-smoke. I think braking a bit earlier than I am would help, that seems like a good suggestion and I'll give it a try.
cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 8:09am
SwapperMX wrote:
Some very good advice already. As for getting out of the habit of pulling in the clutch when braking, do some moto's at 50% speed and...
Some very good advice already. As for getting out of the habit of pulling in the clutch when braking, do some moto's at 50% speed and just focus on riding without using the clutch lever. Something that might take a bit of getting used to coming off a 125.
This is a good suggestion. Just cruise 5 laps at the beginning of the day without touching the clutch lever.

I typically do a few laps near the end of a practice day just standing up around the whole track. It's really good practice for your bike control, especially when the track is rutted.
cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 8:19am
Maybe if I find myself with the same technique problems around February, I'll probably pony up for the Core EXP kit before the first race in March.

Here is a lap from Saturday...

Phillip_Lamb
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10/6/2015 9:12am
wwoberg wrote:
Use the engine braking too your advantage. It's a third brake.
yes this is a big advantage. you use it in lieu of using the rear brake. itll help with coming in hot on some corners and you can "brake" with the engine without the rear locking up and sliding.

a big tip i learned to do with a 450 is to ride without using the clutch. they have so much torque you control your speed more with the throttle than with the clutch lever on a 125. you also need to smooth out on a 450, they dont like to to be over ridden like a 125. a 450 can take much more effort to ride fast due to the weight and power.
cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 9:27am
yes this is a big advantage. you use it in lieu of using the rear brake. itll help with coming in hot on some corners and...
yes this is a big advantage. you use it in lieu of using the rear brake. itll help with coming in hot on some corners and you can "brake" with the engine without the rear locking up and sliding.

a big tip i learned to do with a 450 is to ride without using the clutch. they have so much torque you control your speed more with the throttle than with the clutch lever on a 125. you also need to smooth out on a 450, they dont like to to be over ridden like a 125. a 450 can take much more effort to ride fast due to the weight and power.
Over riding pretty much defines my riding style... I've been working on reigning that in since I got this bike.
colintrax
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10/6/2015 10:19am
Let off that clutch lever, I ride a 150 and I'm pretty sure I use the clutch less than you lol
You need to practice throttle control, or more specifically keeping the gas on when you're not braking.
cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 1:27pm
colintrax wrote:
Let off that clutch lever, I ride a 150 and I'm pretty sure I use the clutch less than you lol You need to practice throttle...
Let off that clutch lever, I ride a 150 and I'm pretty sure I use the clutch less than you lol
You need to practice throttle control, or more specifically keeping the gas on when you're not braking.
Exactly, I don't touch it half that much on the 125! On the 450, you can see I'm grabbing it in the air too.

I guess I'll just have to take off the clutch lever and ride a 30 minute moto or something like that.
BobPA
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10/6/2015 4:54pm
cwtoyota wrote:
Over riding pretty much defines my riding style... I've been working on reigning that in since I got this bike.
I do not see where you are over riding at all? Not once do you hit the rev limiter, and you are not hammering the throttle in the straights. Are you pulling the clutch in when you are in the air?

Try taking some slow laps and never touching the clutch, using the engine braking is a HUGE advantage to carry momentum. When you realize engine braking is your friend you will be amazed at how much better the bike tracks coming into turns.
Crush
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10/6/2015 5:36pm Edited Date/Time 10/6/2015 5:44pm
cwtoyota wrote:
Maybe if I find myself with the same technique problems around February, I'll probably pony up for the Core EXP kit before the first race in...
Maybe if I find myself with the same technique problems around February, I'll probably pony up for the Core EXP kit before the first race in March.

Here is a lap from Saturday...

I get really jealous of you guys watching these tracks... Sure it's not perfectly groomed, it's just awesome to think you ride a national track weekly! Lucky!

Let off that clutch mate. You don't need it unless it's first gear... you're pulling it in heading into corners which will probably make the engine breaking seem more severe...

Try ride in 3rd all the time and be really smooth, you're definitely shifting too much or not using the engine range... NO clutch and get off the breaks, let the bike roll a bit, one thing 4 strokes do well is bite on the front once the engine breaking takes over, but because you're using lots of clutch going in, that will make it harsher and feel unsettled.
Jaybird67k
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10/6/2015 5:57pm
cwtoyota wrote:
Maybe if I find myself with the same technique problems around February, I'll probably pony up for the Core EXP kit before the first race in...
Maybe if I find myself with the same technique problems around February, I'll probably pony up for the Core EXP kit before the first race in March.

Here is a lap from Saturday...

Looks like your doing a good job to me getting around the track.

Jason
jhansen510
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10/6/2015 6:58pm
I think you would love a 250F. Have you had or tried one? I am not a fan of 450s myself. I like them and will ride them. They are better on certain tracks. But overall a 250 is the bike to have if I am only going to have one. I love my kawi 250F. It is ridiculous how fast it is out of the box!
cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 7:01pm
cwtoyota wrote:
Over riding pretty much defines my riding style... I've been working on reigning that in since I got this bike.
BobPA wrote:
I do not see where you are over riding at all? Not once do you hit the rev limiter, and you are not hammering the throttle...
I do not see where you are over riding at all? Not once do you hit the rev limiter, and you are not hammering the throttle in the straights. Are you pulling the clutch in when you are in the air?

Try taking some slow laps and never touching the clutch, using the engine braking is a HUGE advantage to carry momentum. When you realize engine braking is your friend you will be amazed at how much better the bike tracks coming into turns.
I didn't mean to imply I was over-riding in that lap I posted. I've been working on it fixing that, but when I try to ride a bit slower and smoother (like that video clip) I found myself reaching for the clutch way too often.

cwtoyota
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10/6/2015 7:06pm Edited Date/Time 10/6/2015 7:07pm
Crush wrote:
I get really jealous of you guys watching these tracks... Sure it's not perfectly groomed, it's just awesome to think you ride a national track weekly...
I get really jealous of you guys watching these tracks... Sure it's not perfectly groomed, it's just awesome to think you ride a national track weekly! Lucky!

Let off that clutch mate. You don't need it unless it's first gear... you're pulling it in heading into corners which will probably make the engine breaking seem more severe...

Try ride in 3rd all the time and be really smooth, you're definitely shifting too much or not using the engine range... NO clutch and get off the breaks, let the bike roll a bit, one thing 4 strokes do well is bite on the front once the engine breaking takes over, but because you're using lots of clutch going in, that will make it harsher and feel unsettled.
Your middle statement there makes sense when I think about it logically... If I pull the clutch in and let the RPMs fall, then re-engage the clutch, it's a bit like stomping on the brake pedal.

For sure it's harsh and unsettled and that makes me less confident to carry speed in those corners.

You guys have convinced me to try to adapt to it... I guess just cruising a million laps without the clutch is the only way.


Oh, and every time I go there to ride or watch a race, I feel pretty lucky! It's close to 3 hours drive each way, but I try not to miss an opportunity to go.
mb
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10/6/2015 8:19pm
My .02 as a 2 stroke guy is to focus on being on the gas or on the brakes, nothing in-between. If you go straight from the gas to braking hard you will only be aided by the engine braking. You say you ride that way anyways so why stop.

For me, I could get comfortable with it in corner situations but could never get used to it on a jump face.
Markee
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10/6/2015 8:36pm
As soon as you are bored, you have probably have figured out how to ride a 450.

Smooth is defiantly fast on those things.
BurtbaC
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10/6/2015 8:36pm
You could always get a rekluse exp 3 clutch and rid yourself of engine braking altogether. They're not super cheap but they also make the big...
You could always get a rekluse exp 3 clutch and rid yourself of engine braking altogether. They're not super cheap but they also make the big bikes way more fun in the woods and smoother on the track.
I second this option, buy them for every bike plus they save energy if you go down in longer races which I tend to do more frequently than I prefer.
indy rider
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10/7/2015 4:23am
I recently installed Hinson BTL clutch in my YZ250FX which eliminated 95% of the engine braking. It's an absolutely incredible mod. Four different friends have tested it out since the install and all agree.
Lightning78
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10/7/2015 4:30am
Markee wrote:
As soon as you are bored, you have probably have figured out how to ride a 450.

Smooth is defiantly fast on those things.
This
jtiger12
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10/7/2015 4:40am
I pull the clutch a lot when entering choppy corners, and also use it when in third and needing a little pop to stay in the power. A magura clutch was way cheaper than a rekluse and still allows me to use the engine braking when I need it. May be an option for you as well. Absolutely no need to be pulling the clutch in the air like that.

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