MXA 2-stroke carb vs FI face-off on 2027 TM 300s

Moto Nomad
Posts
1276
Joined
1/19/2021
Location
Grass Valley, CA, USA
17 hours ago

There are so many different situations. I can drive one direction for 30 minutes and be at 5000 feet elevation and 30 minutes in the other direction and be at 59 feet elevation. Jetting a carb for different riding spots is a nightmare in that scenario.

Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2192
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ, USA
15 hours ago
moto9 wrote:
I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a...

I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.

I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a lot about function, tuning and diagnostics.

Guys, efi is not going away, if you want a current  chassis, suspension etc, you have to embrace it....at least that's what I figured I had to do.

Currently I have the bike running pretty good, it clean, crisp, idles well and the plug has good color.

I will say the bike is mellow, but I'm not complaining, I haven't ridden any bike to date that lugs as well as this one, also traction is extremely good when conditions go to shit... Too many days like that in Hawaii.

I still may get an afr meter and see how tuning is in combination with the erm.

I recently did some data logging to use as a base that I'll store.

I plan to build a couple of aggressive hot maps when we get into a dry spell, but still tuning for wet greasy conditions.

The green map has more fuel reduction and + 2 degrees timing down low.

I just started tuning so more changes ahead as I get more familiar with the bike.

1000003061 010000030561000003057

 

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to me.

1
CPR
Posts
7288
Joined
10/4/2018
Location
AU
14 hours ago Edited Date/Time 14 hours ago
usp4u1 wrote:

One benefit of EFI:  You dont have to hear those insufferable Aussies say "carby".

Why? 
How do you say carby? 

moto9
Posts
266
Joined
11/11/2016
Location
Waimea, HI, USA
14 hours ago
moto9 wrote:
I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a...

I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.

I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a lot about function, tuning and diagnostics.

Guys, efi is not going away, if you want a current  chassis, suspension etc, you have to embrace it....at least that's what I figured I had to do.

Currently I have the bike running pretty good, it clean, crisp, idles well and the plug has good color.

I will say the bike is mellow, but I'm not complaining, I haven't ridden any bike to date that lugs as well as this one, also traction is extremely good when conditions go to shit... Too many days like that in Hawaii.

I still may get an afr meter and see how tuning is in combination with the erm.

I recently did some data logging to use as a base that I'll store.

I plan to build a couple of aggressive hot maps when we get into a dry spell, but still tuning for wet greasy conditions.

The green map has more fuel reduction and + 2 degrees timing down low.

I just started tuning so more changes ahead as I get more familiar with the bike.

1000003061 010000030561000003057

 

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to...

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to me.

Come on.... really?

Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.

Look at any other motosports, none that I know of still utilize carb technology.  

As for mx, off road, etc only a couple manufacturers are still hanging on to carb tec, give it a few years at best, they'll be efi only as well.

 If you want a current KTM husky or gg chassis and suspension it comes efi equipped.

The chassis handling and suspension on my 27' is far superior to my 18' and the 18' was an air fork...most of us were not fans of the air fork.

In fact, KTM has admittedly dropped the air fork all together knowing it wasn't popular.

Hope that makes some sense.

1
1

The Shop

13 hours ago
moto9 wrote:
I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a...

I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.

I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a lot about function, tuning and diagnostics.

Guys, efi is not going away, if you want a current  chassis, suspension etc, you have to embrace it....at least that's what I figured I had to do.

Currently I have the bike running pretty good, it clean, crisp, idles well and the plug has good color.

I will say the bike is mellow, but I'm not complaining, I haven't ridden any bike to date that lugs as well as this one, also traction is extremely good when conditions go to shit... Too many days like that in Hawaii.

I still may get an afr meter and see how tuning is in combination with the erm.

I recently did some data logging to use as a base that I'll store.

I plan to build a couple of aggressive hot maps when we get into a dry spell, but still tuning for wet greasy conditions.

The green map has more fuel reduction and + 2 degrees timing down low.

I just started tuning so more changes ahead as I get more familiar with the bike.

1000003061 010000030561000003057

 

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to...

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to me.

moto9 wrote:
Come on.... really?Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.Look at any other motosports, none that I...

Come on.... really?

Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.

Look at any other motosports, none that I know of still utilize carb technology.  

As for mx, off road, etc only a couple manufacturers are still hanging on to carb tec, give it a few years at best, they'll be efi only as well.

 If you want a current KTM husky or gg chassis and suspension it comes efi equipped.

The chassis handling and suspension on my 27' is far superior to my 18' and the 18' was an air fork...most of us were not fans of the air fork.

In fact, KTM has admittedly dropped the air fork all together knowing it wasn't popular.

Hope that makes some sense.

Formula Ford still uses carbs!

2
13 hours ago
moto9 wrote:
Come on.... really?Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.Look at any other motosports, none that I...

Come on.... really?

Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.

Look at any other motosports, none that I know of still utilize carb technology.  

As for mx, off road, etc only a couple manufacturers are still hanging on to carb tec, give it a few years at best, they'll be efi only as well.

 If you want a current KTM husky or gg chassis and suspension it comes efi equipped.

The chassis handling and suspension on my 27' is far superior to my 18' and the 18' was an air fork...most of us were not fans of the air fork.

In fact, KTM has admittedly dropped the air fork all together knowing it wasn't popular.

Hope that makes some sense.

I changed the Brand Special for the Carb after 23 years on KTM 

Beta RX 350 with Keihin PWK 38, Perfect Jetting from the Factory, no Need for EFI

7bb43383-da2d-4910-805c-6d535e2d89f7 0
3
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2192
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ, USA
12 hours ago
moto9 wrote:
I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a...

I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.

I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a lot about function, tuning and diagnostics.

Guys, efi is not going away, if you want a current  chassis, suspension etc, you have to embrace it....at least that's what I figured I had to do.

Currently I have the bike running pretty good, it clean, crisp, idles well and the plug has good color.

I will say the bike is mellow, but I'm not complaining, I haven't ridden any bike to date that lugs as well as this one, also traction is extremely good when conditions go to shit... Too many days like that in Hawaii.

I still may get an afr meter and see how tuning is in combination with the erm.

I recently did some data logging to use as a base that I'll store.

I plan to build a couple of aggressive hot maps when we get into a dry spell, but still tuning for wet greasy conditions.

The green map has more fuel reduction and + 2 degrees timing down low.

I just started tuning so more changes ahead as I get more familiar with the bike.

1000003061 010000030561000003057

 

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to...

"If you want a current chassis, suspension etc"... so a Beta or YZ or TM doesn't have current chassis or suspension technology??  That is news to me.

moto9 wrote:
Come on.... really?Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.Look at any other motosports, none that I...

Come on.... really?

Carbs will eventually be gone, that writing has been on the wall for a few years now.

Look at any other motosports, none that I know of still utilize carb technology.  

As for mx, off road, etc only a couple manufacturers are still hanging on to carb tec, give it a few years at best, they'll be efi only as well.

 If you want a current KTM husky or gg chassis and suspension it comes efi equipped.

The chassis handling and suspension on my 27' is far superior to my 18' and the 18' was an air fork...most of us were not fans of the air fork.

In fact, KTM has admittedly dropped the air fork all together knowing it wasn't popular.

Hope that makes some sense.

Yes, really.  The bikes I just mentioned all come with the latest 48mm Kayaba forks and 50mm shock.  The chassis' handle and turn well and are not outclassed. Your reference to only one brand only offering EFI does not make the point you tried to make.  Beta's have carbs, along with the latest suspension, electric start and hydraulic clutches.

The EFI offered in your mother's mini-van is far more sophisticated than what the major motorcross brands are offering us, notwithstanding the difficulty of applying the technology to 2 stroke engines.

There is a reason carbs have lasted so long and still perform so well, and I am not anti-EFI. Carbs are still widely prevelant in KART racing, some drag racing classes, dirt track stock cars, asphalt late model racing such as NASCAR Late Model Stock and SK Modifieds, etc, becaus ethey offer such a great "bang for the buck".  However, this is not the point that many of us are trying to make.  Most of the examples suggesting EFI is more prevalaent for a reason are for 4 stroke engines, not 2 stroke engines, and these 4 stroke examples also use more sophisicated EFI systems than what KTM or Kawasaki is offering to the public for their 2 strokes. Keep in mind that the big MX bike manufacturers are only offering throttle body injection which is an older fuel injection technology. It was around on production cars almost half a century ago!  For MX, the benefits do not hugely ouweigh the disadvantages such as the extra weight, complexity and lots of wiring, poor mapping from factory and not easy to remap at the track, expensive to remap, etc. 

Moreover, from a pure power standpoint, that is not the true advantage of EFI at all.  The advantages of EFI for a trail/ woods bike that sees significant elevation and temperature changes would be greater than for an MX track bike. Most people riding and racing a 2T MX bike are doing it for fun and ride local tracks where huge elevation changes are not a factor and ride in relatively consistent temperatures from roughly 60 to 90 degrees, so the key benefits of EFI just don't weigh in much for 2T MX amateurs, while the disadvantages of weight, cost and complexity weigh in much more. A carb and exhaust valve adjustment can give you a very linear, easy to control powerband, too, along with very crisp throttle response.  I would rather have traction control on my 2T MX bike than EFI, if I were struggling with manageable power delivery. At this point, I am happy with EFI on my 4 stroke, but don't want it on my 2 stroke MXer.  What the latest EFI can do on a high performance automotive 4 stroke engine is amazing, but that is not what we have with a 2T MX bike. K.I.S.S. really applies in this case, IMHO.

4
1
FGR01
Posts
6175
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
USA
11 hours ago
moto9 wrote:
I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a...

I agree that factory efi on 2 strokes are behind current technology.

I dove into Fi in 2020 with tpi and since then I have learned a lot about function, tuning and diagnostics.

Guys, efi is not going away, if you want a current  chassis, suspension etc, you have to embrace it....at least that's what I figured I had to do.

Currently I have the bike running pretty good, it clean, crisp, idles well and the plug has good color.

I will say the bike is mellow, but I'm not complaining, I haven't ridden any bike to date that lugs as well as this one, also traction is extremely good when conditions go to shit... Too many days like that in Hawaii.

I still may get an afr meter and see how tuning is in combination with the erm.

I recently did some data logging to use as a base that I'll store.

I plan to build a couple of aggressive hot maps when we get into a dry spell, but still tuning for wet greasy conditions.

The green map has more fuel reduction and + 2 degrees timing down low.

I just started tuning so more changes ahead as I get more familiar with the bike.

1000003061 010000030561000003057

 

Wow, that really puts the simplicity in owning a 2-stroke.... so glad we "don't have to deal with jetting anymore".  😄

1
sandman768
Posts
8301
Joined
3/21/2014
Location
Saratoga Springs, NY, USA
10 hours ago Edited Date/Time 10 hours ago

I have several bikes bike that I ride, I don’t mind playing with a “Carby” on my older bikes or my 22 150SX….but for my new modern bikes, I don’t want to be messing with the jetting on a ride day…my current 25 300SX has a reflash from a Tech named Paul, he used to work at WMR in Stuart, Florida. Bike is shockingly better in every way,  still great roll on bottom end, strong midrange and pulls way longer into the top end….all on 93 pump gas. I currently have the bike setup for woods/ Gncc type riding….FMF gnarly pipe & 50 rear sprocket….if I had to choose 1 bike for everything…hands down my favorite bike….the FI works or can be made to work very good on the 300”s, not quite there yet on the smaller displacement bikes….

1
moto9
Posts
266
Joined
11/11/2016
Location
Waimea, HI, USA
6 hours ago

You're missing the point I was making.

Eventually carbs will completely fall by the wayside, in my case, for me...not you, I figured I should jump into the efi realm now as opposed to later.

I wanted to stay on the KTM brand, I have 2 sets of spare wheels as well as a lot of other crossover parts.

You can defend carbs to your grave, I'm totally fine with that, you want a tm, beta or yz to stay with a carb....knock yourself out.

1
Tokyo_Tiddler
Posts
2192
Joined
7/25/2009
Location
Somewhere in, NJ, USA
3 hours ago
sandman768 wrote:
I have several bikes bike that I ride, I don’t mind playing with a “Carby” on my older bikes or my 22 150SX….but for my new...

I have several bikes bike that I ride, I don’t mind playing with a “Carby” on my older bikes or my 22 150SX….but for my new modern bikes, I don’t want to be messing with the jetting on a ride day…my current 25 300SX has a reflash from a Tech named Paul, he used to work at WMR in Stuart, Florida. Bike is shockingly better in every way,  still great roll on bottom end, strong midrange and pulls way longer into the top end….all on 93 pump gas. I currently have the bike setup for woods/ Gncc type riding….FMF gnarly pipe & 50 rear sprocket….if I had to choose 1 bike for everything…hands down my favorite bike….the FI works or can be made to work very good on the 300”s, not quite there yet on the smaller displacement bikes….

So let me get this straight, you do not want to spend a few minutes to rejet a carb to your specific liking, but you are ok with removing the ECU to send out to someone to reprogram for $200 and for which you may or may not like their generic program, and with the bike down for about a week if the UPS or Fedex guy doesn't lose it. I think the difference in values is because you are a woods guy and I am an MX guy and we want different things from our bikes. I don't want a really tame bike.

opyguy
Posts
593
Joined
8/22/2016
Location
Boston, MA, USA
3 hours ago
vdrsnk04 wrote:
I’ve had multiple FI 2 strokes now. Had John Ross set me up with an ECU every time and it runs better than any carb bike...

I’ve had multiple FI 2 strokes now. Had John Ross set me up with an ECU every time and it runs better than any carb bike I’ve been on or owned. 

Who was jetting your carbs?😆 I’ve had 2 different John Ross tunes, currently running josh Mathew’s tunes and like them better but I almost always pick...

Who was jetting your carbs?😆 I’ve had 2 different John Ross tunes, currently running josh Mathew’s tunes and like them better but I almost always pick my ‘23 MC250 with a Keihin pwk 38 over the TBI 250sx I have. I’ve put over 50 hours on the MC since March and less then 5 on the TBI in that time frame. Both are good bikes, the TBI is in no way better then the tuned carb, but it’s definitely heavier and has reduced reliability, still a good bike

Care to share your jetting on the 250?  really struggling 

NECJ fourth clip 40 pilot   
Weak bottom end which leads me to believe it’s lean but plug looks rich

1 hour ago
vdrsnk04 wrote:
I’ve had multiple FI 2 strokes now. Had John Ross set me up with an ECU every time and it runs better than any carb bike...

I’ve had multiple FI 2 strokes now. Had John Ross set me up with an ECU every time and it runs better than any carb bike I’ve been on or owned. 

Who was jetting your carbs?😆 I’ve had 2 different John Ross tunes, currently running josh Mathew’s tunes and like them better but I almost always pick...

Who was jetting your carbs?😆 I’ve had 2 different John Ross tunes, currently running josh Mathew’s tunes and like them better but I almost always pick my ‘23 MC250 with a Keihin pwk 38 over the TBI 250sx I have. I’ve put over 50 hours on the MC since March and less then 5 on the TBI in that time frame. Both are good bikes, the TBI is in no way better then the tuned carb, but it’s definitely heavier and has reduced reliability, still a good bike

opyguy wrote:
Care to share your jetting on the 250?  really struggling NECJ fourth clip 40 pilot   Weak bottom end which leads me to believe it’s lean but plug...

Care to share your jetting on the 250?  really struggling 

NECJ fourth clip 40 pilot   
Weak bottom end which leads me to believe it’s lean but plug looks rich

I was running a 42 pilot when I ran that needle. I have one 250 with a 36 and another with a 38 right now, shoot me a pm

sandman768
Posts
8301
Joined
3/21/2014
Location
Saratoga Springs, NY, USA
35 minutes ago
So let me get this straight, you do not want to spend a few minutes to rejet a carb to your specific liking, but you are...

So let me get this straight, you do not want to spend a few minutes to rejet a carb to your specific liking, but you are ok with removing the ECU to send out to someone to reprogram for $200 and for which you may or may not like their generic program, and with the bike down for about a week if the UPS or Fedex guy doesn't lose it. I think the difference in values is because you are a woods guy and I am an MX guy and we want different things from our bikes. I don't want a really tame bike.

I stated I have plenty of older bikes with carbs that I have no problem jetting them….I have had a few carbed 300XC”s, they were notorious for being hard to jet perfectly, spent many hrs playing with the jetting on them….I like the 300”s and feel the FI has made living with them…I.E. elevation, temperature swings, Mx to woods, much easier. For the record, I am a die hard Mx guy ….but I also ride and race off road events like GP”s, Gncc”s and hare scrambles. I put 40hrs on the bike stock, the EcU tune did not “Tame” my bike at all….it now has a map for MX that pulls on top way past the stock tune….I”m not anti carb at all, but for this particular model, I prefer the FI. 

FGR01
Posts
6175
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
USA
7 minutes ago
opyguy wrote:
Care to share your jetting on the 250?  really struggling NECJ fourth clip 40 pilot   Weak bottom end which leads me to believe it’s lean but plug...

Care to share your jetting on the 250?  really struggling 

NECJ fourth clip 40 pilot   
Weak bottom end which leads me to believe it’s lean but plug looks rich

Did you ever try the specs I told you like 2 years ago with the YZ250 needle?

Post a reply to: MXA 2-stroke carb vs FI face-off on 2027 TM 300s

The Latest