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Stuttgart, DE
What happened to this place? Why did it disappear so quick again from pro motocross? I thought it always delivered great racing the few times they raced there and it seemed like a massive, well kept venue from TV.
I guess it wasn’t the best for spectating since there was no hillside overlooking the track? And I imagine the humidity and heat can be pretty intense there during the summer down there in Florida. Those are the only downsides I can think of. Yes, it was a flat track but with the amount of dirt they used it made up for the lack of elevation imo
Id love to see it back on the pro motocross calendar or at least alternate with another one, I guess Budds Creek would be the closest one?
It is kind of crazy the nearest national to Miami or Orlando is a 13 to 15 hour drive away. The Southeast needs an outdoor race, but I am sure the weather is a big factor. Last time they were at WW, several guys had heat related issues (Sexton and Justin Cooper if I recall correctly) even though many of these guys train in Florida.
WW is still active and did more racing a few years back with qualifier/regionals and Florida state championship
Last couple years it’s been like 1 or 2 open ride days all year. This year, seems to be picking up a couple more ride days.
Viewing wasn’t like muddy creek or high point, but it was better than Millville in terms of % of track you could see.
Heat and humidity are the only reason it’s gone IMO. Went every year and its was absolutely brutal. Riders were struggling too. But I’d go again if they had it lol
They keep trying to use the heat as an excuse but they continue going to Red Bud for July 4 weekend every year where it is consistently hotter than anywhere in the south that week for some reason. Most anywhere in the south in May - beginning of July is no worse than anywhere else in the country really
Think a couple of yeats ago Coombs replied in a similar thread, WW was offered but the owner declined, think he may have lost a bit of money hosting nationals.
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hosting a national is not the winning powerball lottery ticket some think it is.
maybe scratch off if everything goes right.
But Ive heard a ton can be made with llq area and regionals? They hosted a couple before but they don't even do that now that Im aware of. Maybe they do and I just missed it.
As to the heat/humidity I mean these guys live and train here. I believe sexton won the first 250 moto one year, then couldn't make the 2nd moto. I think thats correct. We went to every one they ever had including the GP. We rode the amateur days each time and yeah it's hot and we aint pro but its not that bad if you live in this area. You kinda get use to sweating like a hog. WW was closer for us but I did like Muddy Creek better for viewing. Its not even close to the same as far as that goes. I'd love to have either one of them back. Praying Monster Mountian gets it one day, its only an hour away! One can dream!
yea the biggest reason was probably because riders were getting heatstroke. didn't Sexton miss like 2 or rounds after?
RedBud, the past seven years or so I've gone consistently, is nothing like the heat/feeling I experienced at WW.
I second this
Considering that Miami is at the very bottom of the peninsula that is Florida I don’t think it’s too crazy. 5-6 of those hours are just driving North through Florida. I live in DFW and the closest national is 12 hours away (Thunder Valley). Add 4 hours for people from the Houston area. Ironman is 13.5 hours and Millville is 14 hours.
If it’s too hot for a national anywhere in our lateral area, Miami is certainly out of the question.
Edit to add: I tried to use ChatGPT to create a heat map for driving distances to the nationals (it couldn’t do it). Then I asked it to make a map of all the locations and this is the best it could come up with. So many of them are not even close to the actual locations. Just another example of how AI can get close but is still far enough away that you shouldn’t trust it for anything that really matters.
I imagine the first few years of running a national could be a loss or break even at best situation. Lots of infrastructure work needs to be done. Parking, traffic control, fencing, hospitality, line of sight for cameras and now even things like assuring clear flight paths for drones (Washougal had to do a bunch for this) all adds costs. After 4-5 years, many of these costs have already been covered and the venue can start turning a profit. I don't think WW ranch or Muddy Creek were around long enough for the venues to start recouping their money. It seems like they should give these locations at least a 4-5 year contract to make all the the capital improvement expenditures worth it to see if things pan out. I could be wrong, but my .02
Anybody remember when St Pete had a national back when they did 40 + 2?
It seems like they could plan the series in a much more efficient and economically-friendlier route with the schedule lol MN to WA to NY - brutal!
for anyone curious the history of the 'southern' round the last 2 decades:
freestone had it from '07-'12.
muddy creek had it from '13-'18.
WW had it '19-'20.
they doubled up at pala '21 and '22.
in '23 it dropped a round down to 11, with the onset of SMX
Yeah. I believe it has to do with tracks planning with local services to support the event and promoters not wanting to give up their holiday weekends they are locked into. It’s extremely inefficient. I’ve even heard theories that the manufacturers prefer the cross country scramble to make it more difficult for a privateer to battle for a championship.
To be fair, 40+2 wasn’t WOT like they are now.
LOL, map looks funky. Pretty sure Pala is closer to San Diego than it is to San Francisco. 😄
and I am thinking it was august
Pit Row
I wasn't talking about the WW Ranch in particular. I mean the south in general. I've lived and raced in the south my entire life and have never experienced gnarly heat like I have watching a Red Bud national. The year I went, it got up to 116 degrees and seems to consistently get to around mid 90's - 100's. Every year I check the weather around here (North Georgia) and its 10-15 degrees cooler. I dunno but it seems like the people in charge of running the biggest series in the country could make sensible choices like when to and not to visit a certain area. But we keep seeing weird choices get repeated every year. I find it weird that the same organization that tries to say the south is too hot for professional riders are the ones holding a week long amateur race for kids and adults who don't train for a living in the middle of Tennessee during one of the hottest times of the year. There's more to the story that's not being talked about
We moved here to central Florida 2 years ago from southern Indiana. The humidity there is no joke, especially in July and August.
But here in Florida it's another level of hot and humid. I'm outside a lot doing different sports and activities. But some days it's just too hot to be very active, unless you're in the pool or at the beach.
I lived in South Florida for a couple years. Again, I'm still not talking about Florida. I was replying to the comment that mentioned the SE needs a national and weather has always been the excuse. I've raced in every corner of this country in some of the gnarliest conditions and the majority of the SE is no worse than a lot of the places they already have a national. And it still doesn't explain why they hold a week long race at Loretta's at the time of year that they do
Those who profit in a chaotic environment have zero incentive to correct the situation. Secret societies (you know who you are, ya bastards) learned this tactic eons ago…
The "more to the story" is attendance. The attendance at Freestone fell off quite a bit after the first year and they even tried moving it earlier and earlier in the schedule. I don't know about WW but I'm guessing they had attendance issues as well, why else would they want out? It's tough to make the event financially viable for a promoter if the attendance is poor. Are there even any tracks in the south clamoring for a national?
I'm not buying that. Freestone is not even remotely within the area that I am talking about anyways. I've been deep into this sport since the mid 90's and everyone I know has been screaming for an outdoor my whole life. I don't remember attendance being an issue the few times they went to Muddy Creek. I know I went to the first one and it felt more packed than the Red Bud national I went to. Attendance numbers are hard to find for some reason but from what I could see, it seemed the Muddy Creek national averaged around the same amount of people as Hangtown did across the same years. There's multiple tracks that would be capable of hosting a national that are much better tracks than Muddy as well. All I'm saying is for decades I've heard the same couple of recycled excuses and being from here, they don't make sense to me
Well, Muddy Creek doesn’t have a national anymore either and chances are there is a reason.
WW was an awesome track to ride and race but horrible for spectating. Gatorback or monster mountain would be a lot more spectator friendly.
I grew up in Florida, family owned a track in Florida for 25 years. Once it hit May we had night racing through September. Florida fans don't show up for races during the day in summer. They go to the beach or do other water related things like boating, pools, water parks, etc.
Outside of that WW ranch is in the worst area of Florida. Northeast Florida is not a moto hotbed at all and never has been.
Plus anyone thinking a Michigan summer is close in heat and humidity to a Florida summer, clearly hasn't spent much time in Florida. The humidity will literally kill you. It'll sap your energy for weeks with one day of overdoing it.
I agree 100%. I've been to many places in the Southeast in July and August over the years. Florida humidity is next level, hands down.
Yeah I didn’t have to look very carefully to immediately notice it was off. Pala is apparently in Pismo Beach, Thunder Valley in Gunnison, CO. I could have sworn that Millville was in SouthEast MN but nope…ChatGPT has it in Western MN. They have Washougal in damn near Seattle and Red Bud is actually the water of Lake Michigan. 🤣
I’m sure they’re all off but those caught my eye immediately. ChatGPT is mostly useless. I did however use it to remove the watermark from my kids school pictures. It did a fantastic job with that.
this is the answer. all it takes is a rain event on the weekend to drop crowds, and the track is operating at a great loss. each event listed in the south/east, saw decent crowds their first year because it was a new thing to the area, and it dwindled every year post. i've lived in the south my entire life, i would love one more than anyone, but it just hasn't worked. not at freestone, muddy, or WW. i've been in the industry for 25yrs, and i've not seen some mythical 'we hate the south' agenda. if those rounds would have been stellar turnouts, and the track promoters wanted to continue, and the teams wanted to return, they would have.
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