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It’s worse than that. When you look into it more no one else, except Shimoda outdoors, can even string more than 2-3 good motos or main events together. So by half way through the season there is no points pressure on the top guy.
It’s also a major reason why the average age in the 450’s is so high - not a single 250 rider outside of Deegan or the Lawrence’s has made a strong case to move up and force out the older 450 riders.
RJ didn’t win his SX title until he was 29. JCoop won an SX title after five years and didn’t win a 250 title.
Right now anyone trying to predict next years 250 winners is going on nothing more than pure speculation.
They should start the first 250 class race at A1 as an East/West shootout race. Make half the 250 races shootouts and run them earlier before injuries happen.
The problem is it’s gone away from what Dave Sr had started. There were regions to make it fair for the east coast guys to compete for wins without the west coast guys that had good support and tracks. You had to race your region. Now it doesn’t matter where you live, choose the coast that suits your needs. Have an injury going into the new year, race the other coast. Top guys drawing huge salaries. As mentioned on the podcast, the best thing you can have happen in the 250 class is get one win and then finish second in the series. You are guaranteed a job for next year at great pay. Now you even get points that count towards a national number racing half the competition. If you can’t see that something is wrong with the 250 class, I’m afraid you have your eyes closed…
Keep the coast onboard for the privateers, they tell what coast they race and race this coast within the "bigger" national series. The fans can see the difference due to a different number board color and their points scored in the races are counted and will result in two privateer championships with two champions. If they give it a few minutes every broadcast it will help those teams also a lot.
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Agree with you here in that a truncated schedule is something that the teams and riders have asked for in prior years - Decoster to name just one. This is why I pointed it out, among other things, above in a prior post. Seventeen rounds of SX is a meat grinder and is hard on the riders leading to injury and burnout. A 10 round schedule is what the E/W coasts do now - 1 to 2 rounds shouldn't send budgets into a tail spin, but I am not privvy to the team financials.
Star currently 10 rostered riders, if you include the amateurs. Even with guys out on IR, that is going to be a full pit, and as a rider is it the best thing for you to be even be on a team that big? If I was a guy like Thrasher, I'd be looking at a alternative team where I'd get a bit more focus. Honda fields 2 guys, I don't see that changing. Mitch always hovers around 4 guys. KTM 1 rider that's been out - room to grow. Triumph could use a refresh with a turnover of riders. Will Ducati have a 250 program in the future? Perhaps. Could Suzuki come back to the class? Perhaps with a Roczen title. The good guys always find a spot. The class is dominated by Yamaha and Kawi now. Riders filtering out to other brands would not be a bad thing.
This leaves the quasi-privateer teams like Club, Phoenix, Partzilla, etc. Club takes all their guys MX racing, Partzilla fields 450 riders, the truck is going to all the events......Phoneix could use a refresher of talent. These are all teams that have something to offer guys from other current squads. Former factory guys drop down to the quasi privateer teams all the time Fernadis did it, Savatgy did it and is having a great year. The paddock goes through ebb and flow and the good talent - whether twisting a throttle or a wrench - always finds a way to get paid one way or another with gear deals, personal sponsors, etc.
This leaves the true privateers. The riders out of a Sprinter. Guys like these always find a way to get to the events, and deliver value to their regional sponsors - the sponsors that are doing it because they love the sport and don't expect no more than a couple of paddock passes and their logo on the side of the bike during the event.
Many of the arguments I see here for keeping the 250 class regional is the equivalent of lowering the baseline on standardized testing so more students pass. And what riders are coming out of the woodwork that the teams haven't already scouted on PW's at Loretta's?
Yeah, sweet idea man. What's the obsession with privateers? Try selling that to the TV companies? 'Hey, and there's also races with a whole bunch of much slower riders that no one knows!
And who wants to have the night extended even further just so you can have a pointless race! It will also play havoc with the already beaten up tracks.
I think he means just allow privateers to only race part of the series but distinguish them from the full series teams somehow like different coloured plates. I didn't take it to mean a separate race at each event.
I would agree that a 14 race series would be better. 2 weeks off an a longer break before outdoors. As was said this has gone from the what it was designed to be to full factory efforts on both coasts. We now have 6-7 factory teams plus a Club MX and a couple of other high profile teams. We have guys In Detroit there were 10 riders 5 seconds a lap slower than the fastest qualifier that made the night show on a 51 second lap Denver was worse and had riders 10 seconds slower or without times make it. Both class need to be cut to 32-36 in the night show and a 108% rule to make the show. If you want to have a B class for privateers go ahead but based on how crappy 250 pays I can't see there being much money. They can race outdoors or Arena cross. But we are just creating dangerous situations on a track. When you have guys in a main whose best lap is 6 seconds off the leaders why??
Yep, this year has been boring 😴.
Everything I can think of seems to have an obvious refute. Deegan has been romping the field - why is he here - because it's his second year and the rookie Cole Davies gave him trouble last year. It wasn't obvious that he should have been forced into the 450 class.
Combine the classes- there will be less factory rides, and less 2nd tier teams that can afford the full series.
Do half 250SX, half Futures - reduce rides again and race fans will gravitate to the 250SX rounds.
250SX is crowded by factory and really good 2nd Tier teams - but if you aren't on one of those it is more economical to race a 450 than afford a full race 250 engine. It really seems like a full factory class on both coasts. It's fairly deep on 250's - more than 450s in alot of ways. If you get a bad start unless you are Deegan you aren't advancing quickly. In 450s, the top guys always seem to settle out on top quickly in the first half of the race.
When you look at past 250 champions that haven't secured top tier factory 450 rides - most of them are on 2nd tier (maybe Marchbanks is an exception but that is more of a development position) - is it worthwhile to force anybody up earlier by changing the rules? Would McAdoo or Kitchen fare better than Marchbanks in 450s? Probably Kitchen makes more as a top 250 guy than a 7-12 450 guy.
IDK man.
what if they ran 6 West and 6 East then the last five combined? This would give them 2 regional champs and one national champion
Then you have the 'age' problem...
Anstie is old enough to be Minear's great grandfather...
Why? Because there are too many people stuck on this quaint, outdated idea that a random guy with a pro licence and a dirtbike should be able to rock up to the most elite dirtbike event on the planet and share the same track space with the best riders in the world.
As a spectator it adds nothing to the spectacle, and overall it’s a net liability. You have to accommodate massive differences in rider ability, bike capability, budgets, etc which creates way too much compromise.
The outcome is a bunch of guys who are so far off the pace it’s not funny, and whose sponsors get exactly zero TV time. If you are getting lapped every single week in a professional motorsport series you have no business being there.
So you would like about 10 cars in F1? Maybe the sponsors are more interested in fan interaction than TV time…there is whole lot more going at races than what you see on tv.
My vote is to bring back the 125, 250 and 500 classes 🙂
OK that's one aspect that's debatable, but what about the rest of the points?
Indeed! They race just their races in their chosen coast and like said they get an own championship standing and due to their different color number board, they can start to talk about that championship when one of the privateers does well. They could also talk about it after the race. When they get the championship a sponsorship it could "buy some TV-Time" and social media awareness for privateers, their teams and sponsors.
It would be a championship within a championship.
I like that F1 is mentioned because its a great argument. except for the opposite reason.. the fan interaction is huge for the driver/team in last place for F1 because there isn't 20 other homemade F1 cars trying to qualify or hanging around the pits.. its only the best of the best lining up each week and qualifying is for track position. not qualifying to make the race.
Pit Row
they do it similar in AUS SX,
SX3: (14–18 years old) black and yellow
SX2: The premier 250cc class
So you did not read the post where I say if you are not within a certain time gap you do not make the show. Just have guys within 108% make the night show. Most races that will be 32-36 guys. I do not think a guy who is 5-7 seconds a lap off racing the night show. Same in 450, Piazza made the night show 7 seconds off the fastest qualifier. Sorry, you do not race tonight
Other sports - both motorized and stick and ball, have feeder systems that work well. Does anyone think that, if 250SX was national, that putting the remaining resources (teams / riders / sponsors / funding) into Arenacross could be an answer? Riders would have to make their bones on that tour, even local / regional heroes, before transitioning from the farm team to the bigs.
I for one want to see the BEST riders in each class, no age limits, no pointing out. If a rider specializes in the smaller displacement, then let them make a career out of it. I couldn't agree more that having Joey-barely-made-the-night-show in SX is both dangerous for him and others, and continues to keep our sport looking bush league on the world stage during a primetime broadcast.
They already did that AX to qualify thing not that long ago. Thats how Jordon Jarvis did it.
There have been several different ways to qualify for getting your AMA Pro card. In 1980’s My AMA district had to write a letter giving me permission to get mine. Top 10 at Lorettas was another way. Depending on who wanted you to go pro straight from B class was another way like Decoster getting Dungey his Pro card straight from B class at Lorettas.
Reality is Feld / MXSports / AMA Pro want riders with butts in the seats trying to make their life’s dream a reality and fill the gates . I did it at my 1st Pro race in 1985 Red Bud in the 500 class.
All you guys complaining about them not being fast enough can get away from your keyboard and go and prove how fast you are and show us all how to do it.
Dude we know we are not fast enough which is why we are smart enough to not be out there. How narcissistic do you have to be to go out so you can tell people you race Pro Sx when you make 3 mains in 5 seasons and finish 8th in LCQ every week and cause havoc. Or when you do make the main you are 5 seconds a lap slower and 3 laps down just rolling the track for the last 10 minutes? If someone is doing 52 second laps and you are 8 seconds off of that you are 15% slower, how are you "competitive" And that is you by yourself, then in the race you are 10 seconds a lap slower and getting lapped 5 laps into an 8 lap race.
This is supposed to be a National championship. This is like F1 in the 80's when some team would show up and be 7 seconds a lap slower and then try to race. The sport made rules and got rid of them. Maybe have a Friday qualifier and have everyone not in the top 25 in points have to qualify for Sat. Or maybe have a system to where someone else determines of you are a Pro and not just I want to turn pro
Make the 250 class a full series with no pointing out anymore. SMX Next becomes the new regional series with a max of 2 or 3 years allowed, unless you win the championship which automatically bumps you out the next year.
To balance the need for riders at the gate, parity in lap times, and improve racing product.
Keep the 250 class regional. Brings riders to the gates and keeps privateer costs down.
Add regulation for stock motor in 250 class Brings riders to the gates and keeps privateer cost down. Improves lap time parity.
Institute lapped rider rule. After x number of laps, a lapped rider is black flagged and is removed from the track. Improves racing product.
Cut SMX Next from night show. (Why do we have amateurs racing in the night show?). Move to a standalone web series. Improves racing product.
If you keep it regional you will have 6-8 guys make the night show that are field filler running 7 seconds a lap off. IF you make it a national series will you get a privateer in the main sure. But not 10 of them who finish laps down. Denver had 8 riders on the lead lap, 4 guys 2 ;laps down and 1 3 laps down in a 15 minute race. Yes there are lappers in the 450 race but 13 were on the lead lap and that race is 5 minutes longer. Compared to Birmingham where 5 guys were 1 lap down.( 3 guys crashed out) So would it not be a better series if you had 16 competitive guys out there?
I go back to the purpose of the 250 class: it's a feeder class and not the premier class. More 250 riders makes for a better pool to draw for 450 rides.
The disparity of lap times was noted in my comment, make the machines more competitive and remove the unobtanium. That should help with the lap disparity. If that disparity exists in the main, they get pulled off after x # of laps. The fast guys (whoever they are) are allowed to battle it out.
If you make 250s a factory/heavy satellite team only gate selection (likely with combining regional series) what happens when a rider gets hurt, or a team pulls out? Nothing exists to backfill. You've killed the privateer incentives, so no privateers ready to jump in.
And it is no longer a feeder series when guys are in the series for 8+ years. If it is a feeder series then you get a set amount of time or an age limit and then you move up or move out. Having guys in the 250 class for damn near a decade is not feeding anything. Hampshire was in the class for !! fucking years. Davalos for his entire career. This stopped being a feeder series a decade ago
I agree with all that stuff you wrote. I was addressing the question in the last sentence of your post.
If you make the 250’s a feeder or development class you don’t really improve anything overall. When riders are forced out of 250’s they have to go somewhere, but there’s only so many 450 rides to go around. If they get a ride they’ve displaced an existing 450 rider.
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