Jody, MXA, Two Strokes and Matthes

hellion
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1/12/2011 7:45am
Rupert for President!
JOHN CHOATE
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1/12/2011 7:46am
I just love MX and I don't really see it through 2 or 4 stroke eyes. I can't believe how many times this crap keeps coming up. Can't we all just get along? Huh
sfairbro
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1/12/2011 7:47am
I would love to see the local tracks start this as a grass roots thing also. Many, many local series do not have any 125cc class. Maybe they should all consider this and then let the numbers grow, etc.

My son is most likely moving up from the mini class this year. I already have a KTM 125 ready for him (he bought himself with lawn mowing money). I too ride a 2-stroke (KTM 200) for both mx track and woods riding. I am 46 and this sure keeps the fun in it for me without the crazy expenses associated with running a 4-stroke.

DC had a question on the straight up 250 class racing... I would love to see it somehow. If anything, it sure would bring back more excitement and probably more technologies into the 2-stroke market. More people also might purchase which would result in more mfg participation in this market. Look what Ski-Doo is doing with their 2-stroke snowmobiles. Different technology for sure, but there must be some type of data to exchange between everyone. They are meeting & exceeding EPA regulations for sure.
hellion
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1/12/2011 7:47am
I just love MX and I don't really see it through 2 or 4 stroke eyes. I can't believe how many times this crap keeps coming...
I just love MX and I don't really see it through 2 or 4 stroke eyes. I can't believe how many times this crap keeps coming up. Can't we all just get along? Huh
It will be easy to get along when there is no one left. I get along with myself pretty well.

The Shop

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1/12/2011 7:54am
DC wrote:
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and...
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and number of bikes will actually be there this time. I don't think anyone on this board is an actual 16 to 19-year-old prospect who would participate, though a few parents and sponsors might be on here....

Question on straight-up racing in the 250 class: how woold Mike Alessi do in the 250 class on a factory KTM two-smoke? I am afraid the answer would not be good for racing, but it would be great for #800.... That's the real conundrum. Some think it will even the playing field, but I am afraid it would give others a distinct advantage, and then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage.

Just my two cents.

DC
MX Sports
Isn't what you described, exactly what we have now? Only currently we have a situation where others have a distinct advantage because of a rule on displacement.

Which is more or less fair? An equal displacemnet rule that favors some, or a unequal displacement rule that favors some?

The truth is just what you said, millions have been spent on 4S R&D. Regardless of the reason that money will not be wasted by the factories.
GuyB
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1/12/2011 8:08am Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 8:23am
I've said it before and still believe it to be true, that:

The cc rules should be standardized between the pro and amateur classes. That's a large chunk of what makes people absolutely crazy on this topic. (Amendment: I'm not picking the current amateur rules OR the current pro rules...just that they should both be the same.)

Riders should be able to choose which bike works for them and their budget.

The 250 two-stroke/450 four-stroke formula was good when Yamaha first introduced their 400 based on the technology and history at the time, but as the four-stroke powerplant improved, it became too big a gap. It should have been amended.

I'm not sure that a smaller 250F (which would be wound even tighter than they are now) is the right answer to making 125s competitive again.
wreckitrandy
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1/12/2011 8:11am
I hate to throw Jody under the bus here as he actually SHOCKED me by picking the KTM 450 as number 1 in the shootout two years in a row but, I distinctly remember an article in MXA, pre YZF400 saying something to the effect of, 'We need a push rod four stroke.' I'm aware that no push rods are being used. I wonder if the fabled Hardley mx bike had push rod activated valves? The article went on to address metalurgy and made mention of the push rod Mercedes engine that won the Indy 500. I'm not blaming Jody exclusively for the four stroke. He may want to take responsibility for his own part in it though.

If ALL bikes were sound tested at wide open throttle, maximum rpm, four strokes would go away in a hurry.

Anyone who thinks two strokes can't be built in a fashion that hook up and get traction have never ridden a KTM 300 XCW.

To the guy who thinks four stroke favored tracks {faster}{and I agree, they do and, they are} make for more exciting racing,,,, go watch an Enduro X.

Rant officially over.
txmxer
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1/12/2011 8:24am
The issue is what's good for the sport and the participants.

Giving up and coming pro's some middle ground and growing a 125cc class seems like a great idea. It doesn't hurt existing racing and opens up a slot for kids that still need more development time.

CC for CC has too much objection at this time due to economics if for no other reason--right now is not the time to fight that battle IMO.
hellion
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1/12/2011 8:31am
I hate to throw Jody under the bus here as he actually SHOCKED me by picking the KTM 450 as number 1 in the shootout two...
I hate to throw Jody under the bus here as he actually SHOCKED me by picking the KTM 450 as number 1 in the shootout two years in a row but, I distinctly remember an article in MXA, pre YZF400 saying something to the effect of, 'We need a push rod four stroke.' I'm aware that no push rods are being used. I wonder if the fabled Hardley mx bike had push rod activated valves? The article went on to address metalurgy and made mention of the push rod Mercedes engine that won the Indy 500. I'm not blaming Jody exclusively for the four stroke. He may want to take responsibility for his own part in it though.

If ALL bikes were sound tested at wide open throttle, maximum rpm, four strokes would go away in a hurry.

Anyone who thinks two strokes can't be built in a fashion that hook up and get traction have never ridden a KTM 300 XCW.

To the guy who thinks four stroke favored tracks {faster}{and I agree, they do and, they are} make for more exciting racing,,,, go watch an Enduro X.

Rant officially over.
Good points. It's so true too that a two stroke can be made to hook up like a four stroke. It's just that human nature makes us want more. More power and more hit. It happened to the two strokes, and if you compare a 98 YZ 400 to todays four stroke you can see that it is happening to the four stroke too.
1/12/2011 8:51am
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs.

Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250 and the unrecognized talent to put it up front?

It's a moot point.
burn1986
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1/12/2011 8:53am
So, has DC agreed to put together a 125 National Series using the off-weekends of the WMX nationals?
Rooster
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1/12/2011 8:54am
If a manufacturer no longer offers two strokes then may I suggest another 1 year exception to the works bike rule to allow them testing time.

How about reducing the numbers needed to qualify a bike for competition as well. Let's get some Husky's, TM's, and Gas Gas's on the line. Give them the same exception and let's see what develops.
motomike137
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1/12/2011 8:59am Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 8:59am
DC wrote:
Matthes can write anything he wants, just as Steve Cox did, for Racer X or his own site. But everyone needs to remember that the four-stroke...
Matthes can write anything he wants, just as Steve Cox did, for Racer X or his own site. But everyone needs to remember that the four-stroke issue started fifteen years ago, not fifteen days ago, and the factories pumped millions and millions into developing the bikes because that's the direction they wanted to go, and that's the direction many felt we would have to go to stay out of trouble with the EPA and a growing green influence. Did it work out the way it was supposed to? Not for everyone.



So now its the AMA's fault? Now it's somehow my fault? I had a newspaper back then. Maybe everyone should go back and read the gushing magazine stories about Yamaha's development of four-strokes back then and talk to the people who pushed so hard for their inclusion and their ultimate dominance.



DC

MX Sports
Aw jeez DC... why do you have to come in here and talk facts and common sense?! lol!

I would like to see new developement happen with the two strokes though, just take a look at the two stroke marine engines and now the snowmobiles (Ski Doo E-Tec) and it is obvious that we could have a viable choice available to us. I would love to have a newly designed YZ300 two smoker with direct injection!
1/12/2011 9:12am
DC wrote:
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and...
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and number of bikes will actually be there this time. I don't think anyone on this board is an actual 16 to 19-year-old prospect who would participate, though a few parents and sponsors might be on here....

Question on straight-up racing in the 250 class: how woold Mike Alessi do in the 250 class on a factory KTM two-smoke? I am afraid the answer would not be good for racing, but it would be great for #800.... That's the real conundrum. Some think it will even the playing field, but I am afraid it would give others a distinct advantage, and then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage.

Just my two cents.

DC
MX Sports
How is this any different from giving Yamaha & KTM a massive displacement advantage in 1997? Kawasaki, Suzuki and Honda did not sell a four when the 540cc rule was enacted.

Not being a smart ass, just want to hear why changing the rules to allow larger two strokes now, is any different.
hellion
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1/12/2011 9:15am
If the four stroke is so great and the two stroke is dated and uncompetitive then why so much resistance to leveling the playing field? Imagine all the small manufacturers in Europe who would jump at the chance to be involved, and probably some big ones we've never heard of in China and Korea.
vet323
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1/12/2011 9:23am
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs. Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250...
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs.

Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250 and the unrecognized talent to put it up front?

It's a moot point.
You mean this could end up maybe benefiting riders who AREN'T affiliated with a factory?

Oh-so THAT'S why it will never happen!
mooch
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Fantasy
1/12/2011 9:47am
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs. Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250...
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs.

Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250 and the unrecognized talent to put it up front?

It's a moot point.
vet323 wrote:
You mean this could end up maybe benefiting riders who AREN'T affiliated with a factory?

Oh-so THAT'S why it will never happen!
Exactly!!!

Why are folks like knowitalloveragainnovice AND DC so engrossed in what needs to be done for the OEMS and their factory riders while totally disregarding what would work for a good number of privateers who can't keep up with 4stroke expenses? The sport will continue to die a slow death unless that mentality is abandoned.

The Broc Tickle interview in this month's MXA has him stating he decided to go to the 450 class because he just didn't have the resources and money to compete in the 250 class on a 4 stroke.
TeamGreen
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1/12/2011 9:51am
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs. Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250...
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs.

Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250 and the unrecognized talent to put it up front?

It's a moot point.
vet323 wrote:
You mean this could end up maybe benefiting riders who AREN'T affiliated with a factory?

Oh-so THAT'S why it will never happen!
Isn't there a 250 2-Stroke going to PHX, this weekend?
Moto East Mag
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1/12/2011 9:53am
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs. Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250...
All riders on any team affiliated with the factories will be riding 250fs.

Name one rider who will have the freedom to run a 2'stroke 250 and the unrecognized talent to put it up front?

It's a moot point.
vet323 wrote:
You mean this could end up maybe benefiting riders who AREN'T affiliated with a factory?

Oh-so THAT'S why it will never happen!
mooch wrote:
Exactly!!! Why are folks like knowitalloveragainnovice AND DC so engrossed in what needs to be done for the OEMS and their factory riders while totally disregarding...
Exactly!!!

Why are folks like knowitalloveragainnovice AND DC so engrossed in what needs to be done for the OEMS and their factory riders while totally disregarding what would work for a good number of privateers who can't keep up with 4stroke expenses? The sport will continue to die a slow death unless that mentality is abandoned.

The Broc Tickle interview in this month's MXA has him stating he decided to go to the 450 class because he just didn't have the resources and money to compete in the 250 class on a 4 stroke.
Brock Tickle? I think you have the wrong rider. He races 250 class for Pro Circuit obviously.
Adam43
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1/12/2011 9:59am
I wish that AMA Pro Racing and MX Sports would recognize the leadership role they play for the entire sport. Motocross is rife with hero worship - what the very best do, the masses follow.

Having a 250F/250 two stroke rule for amateurs only isn't sufficient. Not enough sanctioning bodies will adopt the change - but everyone will follow AMA Pro.

There is no logical argument for four-strokes in motocross. Their increased expenses across the board have pushed the typical American family completely out of the sport. Motocross is already nearly an elitists-only sport.

No one seemed too concerned at the time about writing a rules package that pushed out two-strokes, yet suggesting something that might bring back some equality is blasphemous?

I wish they would consider the impact beyond their precious Pro series. The sport as a whole is on life support, and the cure starts with a few strokes of a pen.
CamP
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1/12/2011 10:00am
Jody is right.

Motocross is a kids' sport and if costs aren't corralled, there won't be many kids racing motocross anymore.
DPW
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1/12/2011 10:10am
besides cost there is also that "little" sound issue between the two...
nospeed
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1/12/2011 10:11am
DC - if you are counting votes for the MX Nationals.

I vote to bring on a 125 support class and let 250 2 strokes compete against 250 4 strokes.

At least the local guy can go to his local National have have a chance without having to spend $$$ on a built 250F.

FreshTopEnd
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1/12/2011 10:26am
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule down the OEM's throats that they don't want and survive if they reject it.

The proportion of OEM money subsidizing the sport seems to be diminishing, so maybe the day will come when the sanctioning body can tell them to pound sand, but I don't think it's there yet.
FreshTopEnd
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1/12/2011 10:29am
DPW wrote:
besides cost there is also that "little" sound issue between the two...
That's an issue that can be solved under the present structure and still has to be solved in any event unless you're talking about eliminating four strokes altogether.
OW38B
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1/12/2011 10:38am Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 10:40am
DC wrote:
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and...
Yes, i have sone thoughts on this... But I called it the Racer X Rookies' Cup when I pitched it last year. Maybe the support and number of bikes will actually be there this time. I don't think anyone on this board is an actual 16 to 19-year-old prospect who would participate, though a few parents and sponsors might be on here....

Question on straight-up racing in the 250 class: how woold Mike Alessi do in the 250 class on a factory KTM two-smoke? I am afraid the answer would not be good for racing, but it would be great for #800.... That's the real conundrum. Some think it will even the playing field, but I am afraid it would give others a distinct advantage, and then the factories that still make and market two-strokes in America would have an overwhelming advantage.

Just my two cents.

DC
MX Sports
"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc".

DC- you already have an examples of what will happen with equal displacement motocross racing. The Australian Pro series has the equal displacement rule and the two strokes are not dominating and the OEM’s have not run and hidden from them.

You also have had equal displacement on the AMA amateur level for a few years and it has not made the 4 stroke 250’s obsolete either.

So you are in the position to make yourself a hero in the eyes of the motocross world to work on having equal displacement in the upcoming MX Nationals, or…………..
burn1986
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1/12/2011 10:39am Edited Date/Time 1/12/2011 10:54am
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule...
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule down the OEM's throats that they don't want and survive if they reject it.

The proportion of OEM money subsidizing the sport seems to be diminishing, so maybe the day will come when the sanctioning body can tell them to pound sand, but I don't think it's there yet.
I think the point is that there is and has been no favorable changes at all for 2-strokes, not even a consideration of a 125 class.
themrtoad
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1/12/2011 10:52am
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule...
Maybe the first thing to argue is the premise that the sport is secure enough financially for the sanctioning body to be able force a rule down the OEM's throats that they don't want and survive if they reject it.

The proportion of OEM money subsidizing the sport seems to be diminishing, so maybe the day will come when the sanctioning body can tell them to pound sand, but I don't think it's there yet.
Interesteing perspective FTE. I often wondered about that in the GP's. I can see KTM putting a lot of cash into that serie, but the other manufacturers is "small" players indeed.

That tells me the big four has little interest/money to put into motocross, since there's not enough bike being sold. Since motocross is running out of riders/bikebuyers they rely on energy drinks and german kitchen (Monster/Teka/redbull)

If they put their money somewhere else the FIM wolrd championship is out of financial partners. I can see both Youthstream and MX Sports having mainsponsors leaving them in a near future when attendance and interest for motocross drops when people can't afford it as a hobby anymore. Supercross may survive, but motocross as we know it will end up in a bad situation.

I prefere motocross in the 90's. Lot's of bikes were sold. They raced out of a van and were sponsored by comnpanies involved in racing. They didn't make millions but on the other hand they didn't have to pay to take part as pro's. Miniracing was really strong and in every school there were at least some kids who raced motocross without having parents that were rich. We took the wrong path when we went fourstroke.

Make it a race on the track again, not just a wallet race.
newmann
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1/12/2011 10:54am
Brock Tickle? I think you have the wrong rider. He races 250 class for Pro Circuit obviously.
No, it's Broc Tickle. He was referencing to 06 and his rookie season. He chose to ride 450's because they were not as expensive. He also mentioned the wide gap between the factory team 250F's and what normal people could afford.
1/12/2011 10:59am
CamP wrote:
Jody is right.

Motocross is a kids' sport and if costs aren't corralled, there won't be many kids racing motocross anymore.
What do they care, as long as a small number of people are able to afford multiple higher priced bikes, costly engine rebuilds, higher gate & practice fees.. who cares? It all equals out in the end.

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