Triumph TF450 transmission updates.

lowmass wrote:

ace402 wrote:

Yeah, valid point. Still rate it last but say where it would rank if the transmission was fine.

OldTech wrote:

Nothing wrong with that question at all! Now, happens to the re-sale value of these bikes?

lowmass wrote:

I would caution people to not sell their triumph too soon. MXA is on record praising the Triumph TF both the 250 and 450. This all befor...

I would caution people to not sell their triumph too soon. 

MXA is on record praising the Triumph TF both the 250 and 450. This all befor the latest 450 shootout

However that was preliminary reports AND even then there were veiled tones of caution in their voice. My thought when I first heard these reports was " they are cautiously  concealing something". Not that they were up to no good, simply that early on  they had some reasons to think there might be some trouble but havent tested long enough yet to say for sure.

Then when they finally did an extensive test ( the latest shootout) it was all clear and they reported the issue with confidence.

I see that as the only ones telling the truth 

That said They love the bike as do many of us and I bet it will lead or be at top if Triumph makes good on their issues.

. I Personally have tested the 25 YZF, CRF, SXF, TF 450s . The Triumph is without question the bike with the most potential. Great chassis (not just assembly line frendly tubes slapped together) , great brakes ( you really dont know how much better Brembo modulation is untill ya jump off a jap bike back onto the triumph,  great suspenders ( valved for novices but its all there for a fast guy to revalve), The rest is fixable like the weak bottom end ( most will be satisfied with simply adding a 50-51 tooth rear, fast guys may need a pipe and ignition?) On many bikes adding teeth doesnt work all that well but for some reason it works well on this bike, it has "legs" , .... It turns but is reasonably stable, it feels light because it is light, not because it has a twitch geometry that "feels light in motion". etc etc ....

If they simply take care of some QA this bike will move up the line considerably and if they stiffen it up a bit and remamp for some low to mid I predict it will win

motomind00132 wrote:

Title change due to triumph getting out there and helping now for a couple months.Also to Lowmass. Yeah thats what I was seeing in the one...

Title change due to triumph getting out there and helping now for a couple months.

Also to Lowmass. Yeah thats what I was seeing in the one I rebuilt only the shift forks did look better then urs. The other I pulled apart in Minnesota looked more like urs, and looking at another guys trans on his bench that was replaced looked like yours. Wonder if there was an update from the one I did to the 2 I saw.

But I have to say it looks like most issues people were having have been solved in the new model year. I will say if everything keeps getting better and ironed out there might be a TF250 and 450 in my garage. I want a 350 but the triumphs are nice to ride when they're running right.

 

JMCR250 wrote:

You should submit your time and expenses to Triumph Motors.  Sounds like they could use someone like you designing/building/testing their trannies!

JMCR250 wrote:

You should submit your time and expenses to Triumph Motors.  Sounds like they could use someone like you designing/building/testing their trannies!

lowmass wrote:

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more;)Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they...

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more

Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they cant make this right BUT I suspect the cost to do so on bikes already sold will too high to expect much. 

what I present are "possabilites" only as they are not proven on track

many of us got a raw deal and if it wasnt for the great chassis I would kick her to the curb

If this stuff doesnt work out I will sell her cheap

lowmass wrote:

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more;)Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they...

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more

Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they cant make this right BUT I suspect the cost to do so on bikes already sold will too high to expect much. 

what I present are "possabilites" only as they are not proven on track

many of us got a raw deal and if it wasnt for the great chassis I would kick her to the curb

If this stuff doesnt work out I will sell her cheap

lowmass wrote:

More potential issues found and some possible solutions…..Some are reporting excessive wear and even breakage of the aluminum shift drums and I hear of steel...

More potential issues found and some possible solutions…..Some are reporting excessive wear and even breakage of the aluminum shift drums and I hear of steel drums being made. Perhaps a good idea for the pros? However, the KTMs have similar drums and no significant issues. I have had 3 KTMs with well over 500 hrs. total between them without issue. It seemed to me we may be missing something here. 

Inspection of the drum/forks shows 2 possible answers. The shift fork pin on the fork controlling 3rd-5th gears (one fork controls these gears) do not go full depth into the shift drum groves. This will place a larger than necessary load on the thin drum groves sides. Combine this with whatever is causing hard notchy shifting moves requiring more force at the lever (more on that next) and its possible that much of, if not all of the problem with fast wear and breakage of drums is here.  Pic # 1 shows the pin depth for the fork that controls 4-5 gear. This looks good at about 80% depth. Pic # 2 shows the pin depth for 1st – 3rd gears (there are two forks involved in moving these gears). This depth looks suspect. Pic # 3 shows the 4-5 gear fork is MUCH closer to the drum than the 1-3 gear forks. Looks like triumph may have made an error here. FORTUNATLY we can recover this one at home. If you have a source for longer pins that would be simple and easy BUT I caution you. Finding truly hard polished pins (I would use only actual bearing roller pins, not just dowel pin) the exact diameter may be difficult. I went the backyard rout😉. Do this EXACTLY and I see no problems coming from this. See Pics # 5-8 The pins need to be 1mm (-0mm+.25mm) longer.  I simply cut a soft metal wire bit (coat hanger works well), threw it in the hole, install pin, hit end of the pin with a plastic mallet to mash the soft metal bit out until ya get a 1mm taller pin. Disassemble it all, rough up bottom of pin and bottom of hole in fork with 230 grit emery cloth. Now this is important! Clean all parts 1st with acetone, then rinse thoroughly with isopropyl alcohol (sometimes called 2 propanol). I got both at hardware store or on line). Its important to degrease with acetone and then remove acetone residual with the isopropyl alcohol. If there is acetone residue left over it may weaken epoxy. Reassemble, put just a small drop of the JB Weld down at the bottom of the hole in the fork, install the mashed out soft metal bit on top. Place a small drop of JB weld on bottom of pin that you roughed up with 230 grit cloth. Install and push down fully. Measure and make sure all is right. Now either let it harden over night or bake in the oven at 200 degrees for an hr. I recommend the bake. The pins are a very close fit in the hole so try not to get epoxy on sides or it will seal so well that the air pressure from installing will pop it all out. I went 3 rounds before I got it all right ha. I know the JB Weld seems a bit crude. Its not. I have done extensive testing of all sorts of “high end” epoxy’s and to our surprise JB weld ranks among the best of expensive stuff for durability, adhesion, heat resistance, oil and fuel resistance. As well as lab tests I’ve used it on similar bike repairs for decades. IF, IF you clean and prep your parts properly its truly great stuff! AND even if it comes loose that pin isn’t going anywhere. Its all held in place anyway by surrounding parts. However, don’t just throw it all together without the epoxy. The bottom of the hole in the fork is it’s a cone shape. If ya don’t use the epoxy to stabilize the mashed out soft metal bit, that bit could move around and climb up the cone side changing the pin height in use and possibly causing an issue. The epoxy will fill in around everything and make is so even if it all loosens up it cannot move around and change pin height. 

 

Hard Notchy shifting moves

This issue has been tricky to narrow down and I have not fully tested the following suggestion to death yet BUT so far it looks very promising. The shifting is always a bit hard/ notchy on these bikes. Many seem to think their bike is fine but the data suggests otherwise. It’s likely all of them have these issues to a lesser or greater degree and its likely over time it could get worse with wear. On the bench with no running loads on anything the transmission feels fine. However, simulating actual loads by placing even light side loads on shift forks (similar to what happens in actual use) produces a surprisingly hard drag and even a jam at times. 

A trick to diagnose issues like this is applying a high-pressure lube such as anti-seize compound to suspect areas and see if the drag/jam is overcome. Sure enough, if you lube up the shift fork shafts with this the drag and the jams completely disappeared. Night and day. See Pic #4. Testing further I removed the forks and shafts, cleaned all the compound off, lubed up with engine oil and can easily feel the drag and even jam just working these parts by hand with even light side loads on fork fingers. Thicker oil was better but still not good. It looks like the finish/ tolerances/ hardness of materials here isn’t quite up to the task. We cannot just glop on the anti-seize as it will soon wash of in use, SO it looks like a hard coat of the shafts is necessary. Perhaps a simple polish will get ya part way there? But if it works it will likely rough up again in use and likely start binding again. My experience with this kind thing says ya need a hard coat. I will be chasing down DLC coaters and hope to get that done. Unfortunately, this possible last vestige of drag in these transmissions will not be overcome with back yard fix. BUT do not fear! There are DLC coaters all over the planet. Don’t be afraid to call them even though ya don’t know the science. All ya need to do is tell them whatever specific of type DLC coating they are doing on piston wrist pins/ cam shafts/etc will be fine. JUST MAKE SURE they don’t do a “thick coat” or the parts may not fit when ya get them back. Tell them ya want the 1-2 micron thickness. That’s enough and is a typical coating they can do. Anyway, I plan to get this done and will report back on the results. Can’t promise how long this will take but I see a lot of coaters out there and it shouldn’t be weeks and it shouldn’t be terribly expensive. I will report when I have test results and details on coatings.

 

lowmass wrote:

More potential issues found and some possible solutions…..Some are reporting excessive wear and even breakage of the aluminum shift drums and I hear of steel...

More potential issues found and some possible solutions…..Some are reporting excessive wear and even breakage of the aluminum shift drums and I hear of steel drums being made. Perhaps a good idea for the pros? However, the KTMs have similar drums and no significant issues. I have had 3 KTMs with well over 500 hrs. total between them without issue. It seemed to me we may be missing something here. 

Inspection of the drum/forks shows 2 possible answers. The shift fork pin on the fork controlling 3rd-5th gears (one fork controls these gears) do not go full depth into the shift drum groves. This will place a larger than necessary load on the thin drum groves sides. Combine this with whatever is causing hard notchy shifting moves requiring more force at the lever (more on that next) and its possible that much of, if not all of the problem with fast wear and breakage of drums is here.  Pic # 1 shows the pin depth for the fork that controls 4-5 gear. This looks good at about 80% depth. Pic # 2 shows the pin depth for 1st – 3rd gears (there are two forks involved in moving these gears). This depth looks suspect. Pic # 3 shows the 4-5 gear fork is MUCH closer to the drum than the 1-3 gear forks. Looks like triumph may have made an error here. FORTUNATLY we can recover this one at home. If you have a source for longer pins that would be simple and easy BUT I caution you. Finding truly hard polished pins (I would use only actual bearing roller pins, not just dowel pin) the exact diameter may be difficult. I went the backyard rout😉. Do this EXACTLY and I see no problems coming from this. See Pics # 5-8 The pins need to be 1mm (-0mm+.25mm) longer.  I simply cut a soft metal wire bit (coat hanger works well), threw it in the hole, install pin, hit end of the pin with a plastic mallet to mash the soft metal bit out until ya get a 1mm taller pin. Disassemble it all, rough up bottom of pin and bottom of hole in fork with 230 grit emery cloth. Now this is important! Clean all parts 1st with acetone, then rinse thoroughly with isopropyl alcohol (sometimes called 2 propanol). I got both at hardware store or on line). Its important to degrease with acetone and then remove acetone residual with the isopropyl alcohol. If there is acetone residue left over it may weaken epoxy. Reassemble, put just a small drop of the JB Weld down at the bottom of the hole in the fork, install the mashed out soft metal bit on top. Place a small drop of JB weld on bottom of pin that you roughed up with 230 grit cloth. Install and push down fully. Measure and make sure all is right. Now either let it harden over night or bake in the oven at 200 degrees for an hr. I recommend the bake. The pins are a very close fit in the hole so try not to get epoxy on sides or it will seal so well that the air pressure from installing will pop it all out. I went 3 rounds before I got it all right ha. I know the JB Weld seems a bit crude. Its not. I have done extensive testing of all sorts of “high end” epoxy’s and to our surprise JB weld ranks among the best of expensive stuff for durability, adhesion, heat resistance, oil and fuel resistance. As well as lab tests I’ve used it on similar bike repairs for decades. IF, IF you clean and prep your parts properly its truly great stuff! AND even if it comes loose that pin isn’t going anywhere. Its all held in place anyway by surrounding parts. However, don’t just throw it all together without the epoxy. The bottom of the hole in the fork is it’s a cone shape. If ya don’t use the epoxy to stabilize the mashed out soft metal bit, that bit could move around and climb up the cone side changing the pin height in use and possibly causing an issue. The epoxy will fill in around everything and make is so even if it all loosens up it cannot move around and change pin height. 

 

Hard Notchy shifting moves

This issue has been tricky to narrow down and I have not fully tested the following suggestion to death yet BUT so far it looks very promising. The shifting is always a bit hard/ notchy on these bikes. Many seem to think their bike is fine but the data suggests otherwise. It’s likely all of them have these issues to a lesser or greater degree and its likely over time it could get worse with wear. On the bench with no running loads on anything the transmission feels fine. However, simulating actual loads by placing even light side loads on shift forks (similar to what happens in actual use) produces a surprisingly hard drag and even a jam at times. 

A trick to diagnose issues like this is applying a high-pressure lube such as anti-seize compound to suspect areas and see if the drag/jam is overcome. Sure enough, if you lube up the shift fork shafts with this the drag and the jams completely disappeared. Night and day. See Pic #4. Testing further I removed the forks and shafts, cleaned all the compound off, lubed up with engine oil and can easily feel the drag and even jam just working these parts by hand with even light side loads on fork fingers. Thicker oil was better but still not good. It looks like the finish/ tolerances/ hardness of materials here isn’t quite up to the task. We cannot just glop on the anti-seize as it will soon wash of in use, SO it looks like a hard coat of the shafts is necessary. Perhaps a simple polish will get ya part way there? But if it works it will likely rough up again in use and likely start binding again. My experience with this kind thing says ya need a hard coat. I will be chasing down DLC coaters and hope to get that done. Unfortunately, this possible last vestige of drag in these transmissions will not be overcome with back yard fix. BUT do not fear! There are DLC coaters all over the planet. Don’t be afraid to call them even though ya don’t know the science. All ya need to do is tell them whatever specific of type DLC coating they are doing on piston wrist pins/ cam shafts/etc will be fine. JUST MAKE SURE they don’t do a “thick coat” or the parts may not fit when ya get them back. Tell them ya want the 1-2 micron thickness. That’s enough and is a typical coating they can do. Anyway, I plan to get this done and will report back on the results. Can’t promise how long this will take but I see a lot of coaters out there and it shouldn’t be weeks and it shouldn’t be terribly expensive. I will report when I have test results and details on coatings.

 

aees wrote:

Love the work you done. But honestly, I'm more convinced then ever to not touch a Triumph until you validate it's been fixed 😄And Triumph was...

Love the work you done. But honestly, I'm more convinced then ever to not touch a Triumph until you validate it's been fixed 😄

And Triumph was actually on my list to switch to. Test rode one last year.

lowmass wrote:

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more;)Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they...

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more

Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they cant make this right BUT I suspect the cost to do so on bikes already sold will too high to expect much. 

what I present are "possabilites" only as they are not proven on track

many of us got a raw deal and if it wasnt for the great chassis I would kick her to the curb

If this stuff doesnt work out I will sell her cheap

OldTech wrote:

Even if they don't do anything else,  they should give you a decent set of shift forks...

lowmass wrote:

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more;)Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they...

I would bet they have been  aware and know about ecerything Ive seen and likley more

Triumph has built a lot of bikes. Theres no reason they cant make this right BUT I suspect the cost to do so on bikes already sold will too high to expect much. 

what I present are "possabilites" only as they are not proven on track

many of us got a raw deal and if it wasnt for the great chassis I would kick her to the curb

If this stuff doesnt work out I will sell her cheap

OldTech wrote:

Even if they don't do anything else,  they should give you a decent set of shift forks...

lowmass wrote:

credit where its dueChecked all forks tonight and they are actually flat and level. Just a spot on one was a tad high so took about...

credit where its due

Checked all forks tonight and they are actually flat and level. Just a spot on one was a tad high so took about 2 thou off and the raised marking that was rubbing on gear needed grinding but fingers were suprisingly good.