Okay, here's what I find kooky in two-stroke/four-stroke arguments

race
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race 12/27/2010 4:32pm
12/27/2010 4:32pm
GuyB wrote:
Last night I posted this on the Vital MX Facebook page. Okay, enough holiday stuff. Just finished a riding/video interview with Kyle Regal. It's uploading now...
Last night I posted this on the Vital MX Facebook page.

Okay, enough holiday stuff. Just finished a riding/video interview with Kyle Regal. It's uploading now. C'mon, Mr. Broadband, help me out...

And here's someone posted underneath it:

In regards to the AMA?Big 4 racing 2 strokes in the California series, we stroker fans would love nothing more, but, it will not happen. We would support this whole-heartedly, but it will not take place. If it did, this would be tatamount t...o the Big 4 admitting that the billions they spent in selling the public on the 4 stroke and the 4 strokes themselves was a mistake. The only way we are going to see our 2 strokes is, if we get to watch some European races. In Europe, they are playing fair when it comes to the whole 2/4 stroke racing issue. The big 4 will HAVE to act soon. When the popularity of the European/2 stroke series overtakes what is taking place here in the states, they will act. Unfortunately, it won't be for the good, there is no way the Big 4 will "cave-in" and bring back the 2 stroke. What will happen, and this is only a good guess/speculation, is that the Big 4 will "buy" the series and make it an all 4 stroke series, or something similar to this.



I get that people want to make their opinions heard. But I also think that doing it in appropriate times and places generally make them seem more credible and less like over-amped kids who've had too much sugar and caffiene.

And that's my rant. Smile
I've heard the repair bills can cause excitement.

dirtbikersa 12/27/2010 4:45pm
12/27/2010 4:45pm
GuyB wrote:
Last night I posted this on the Vital MX Facebook page. Okay, enough holiday stuff. Just finished a riding/video interview with Kyle Regal. It's uploading now...
Last night I posted this on the Vital MX Facebook page.

Okay, enough holiday stuff. Just finished a riding/video interview with Kyle Regal. It's uploading now. C'mon, Mr. Broadband, help me out...

And here's someone posted underneath it:

In regards to the AMA?Big 4 racing 2 strokes in the California series, we stroker fans would love nothing more, but, it will not happen. We would support this whole-heartedly, but it will not take place. If it did, this would be tatamount t...o the Big 4 admitting that the billions they spent in selling the public on the 4 stroke and the 4 strokes themselves was a mistake. The only way we are going to see our 2 strokes is, if we get to watch some European races. In Europe, they are playing fair when it comes to the whole 2/4 stroke racing issue. The big 4 will HAVE to act soon. When the popularity of the European/2 stroke series overtakes what is taking place here in the states, they will act. Unfortunately, it won't be for the good, there is no way the Big 4 will "cave-in" and bring back the 2 stroke. What will happen, and this is only a good guess/speculation, is that the Big 4 will "buy" the series and make it an all 4 stroke series, or something similar to this.



I get that people want to make their opinions heard. But I also think that doing it in appropriate times and places generally make them seem more credible and less like over-amped kids who've had too much sugar and caffiene.

And that's my rant. Smile
I got 07 RM250 and 10 RMZ250 and I find the 4T fun to ride. Nowhere near as much power as the 2T but loads of fun.
Propaganda!
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Propaganda! 12/27/2010 5:02pm
12/27/2010 5:02pm Edited Date/Time 12/27/2010 5:50pm
Guy B is probably just upset because a thread about something that supposedly almost no one is interested in is the biggest thing his forum has seen in a very long time.

Compared to all the subjects that should supposedly be more interesting to the majority of people, the thread about 2 strokes re entering AMA Supercross has trumped everything.

I guess you have to expect this type of attitude though, because people like DC and Guy B always say that racing is better now than it's ever been, and bikes are the best they've ever been, and it's only a small dissident group who doesn't think so....

Then all of a sudden his forum is ablaze when DV puts "SeaBiscuit" in the race! 12,000 views!.... over 200 replies! it's VIRAL!

You have to laugh really.... I always thought that 4 Stroke dirt bike racing was a little short on excitement, and that the bikes available to the consumer for purchase were very short on excitement. For about the last 5 years, racing, spectating, bike ownership, and all kinds of associated things have been an exercise in denial and corporate rhetoric.

The huge interest that people have demonstrated for the return of the 2 stroke to pro supercross flies in the face of most of what Guy B, DC, and lots of others like them have been preaching. Weak bike sales? Less spectators at the races? Less racers at the races? Riding and racing have not been as exciting for the past few years so what do you expect?

The public is interested.
dunn2500
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dunn2500 12/27/2010 5:04pm
12/27/2010 5:04pm
if the 2-st came out today with the weight, handling, and power advantage everybody would be freakin to go get one...............the 4-st cant compete with a 2-st cc for cc, it took a shitload of R&D just to get the 4-st where it is today, big heavy and powerful pig's............there is a pretty big movement of people goin back right now.............pro racing is very small in the overall picture of mx.........and yes i own one of these pigs, not a whole lot of fun, cant ride it near its potential but it is very forgiving and effective................they are too easy to ride and most people fail to improve their mx skills cause you dont have to ........a 450 will bail you out of almost any situation and you dont even have to be a good rider

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jleews6 12/27/2010 5:18pm
12/27/2010 5:18pm
GuyB wrote:
Last night I posted this on the Vital MX Facebook page. Okay, enough holiday stuff. Just finished a riding/video interview with Kyle Regal. It's uploading now...
Last night I posted this on the Vital MX Facebook page.

Okay, enough holiday stuff. Just finished a riding/video interview with Kyle Regal. It's uploading now. C'mon, Mr. Broadband, help me out...

And here's someone posted underneath it:

In regards to the AMA?Big 4 racing 2 strokes in the California series, we stroker fans would love nothing more, but, it will not happen. We would support this whole-heartedly, but it will not take place. If it did, this would be tatamount t...o the Big 4 admitting that the billions they spent in selling the public on the 4 stroke and the 4 strokes themselves was a mistake. The only way we are going to see our 2 strokes is, if we get to watch some European races. In Europe, they are playing fair when it comes to the whole 2/4 stroke racing issue. The big 4 will HAVE to act soon. When the popularity of the European/2 stroke series overtakes what is taking place here in the states, they will act. Unfortunately, it won't be for the good, there is no way the Big 4 will "cave-in" and bring back the 2 stroke. What will happen, and this is only a good guess/speculation, is that the Big 4 will "buy" the series and make it an all 4 stroke series, or something similar to this.



I get that people want to make their opinions heard. But I also think that doing it in appropriate times and places generally make them seem more credible and less like over-amped kids who've had too much sugar and caffiene.

And that's my rant. Smile
At one time I did. In 2008 my son was on new YZ125s and we had a great year and more importantly we haf FUN.
Then in 09 we decided to "step up" to the 250Fs. and it was all down hill from there.Blown motors,droped valves and other problems prevented us from riding half as much as the year before.

Motocross hasn't been the same for us since we got the four strokes. This year we are getting 250 two strokes so we can start having fun again.
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MX4EVR 12/27/2010 5:43pm
12/27/2010 5:43pm
Do we need to send all you 4stroke boys back to school? Its cut and dry more moving parts more parts breakage. And a 450 2 stroke makes more power
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Hank_Thrill 12/27/2010 6:13pm
12/27/2010 6:13pm
newmann wrote:
Guy B was so impressed with the 12,000 views on the other 2 stroke thread that he went and started his own! I know all those...
Guy B was so impressed with the 12,000 views on the other 2 stroke thread that he went and started his own! I know all those hits didn't come from a "small core group".


PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111
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Hank_Thrill 12/27/2010 6:17pm
12/27/2010 6:17pm Edited Date/Time 12/27/2010 6:27pm
Rupert X wrote:
What confounds THIS ENTIRE argument is that MOST of the Japanese mfrs STILL make two-strokes for kids ( 50/65 and 85) - so , none of...


What confounds THIS ENTIRE argument is that MOST of the Japanese mfrs STILL

make two-strokes for kids ( 50/65 and 85) - so , none of the traditional argument

models - involving the Japanese conspiracy - actually work.

If you use logic - and I sometimes do - there's not a whole lot of logic to any of this.
Racer92 wrote:
The logic is simple. The rolling hand-grenades make more money for the OEMS. The tried & true smoker, doesnt.

Turn the page.


Exactly! 4-strokes were pushed upon the masses during an era of strong economic growth, which provided the opportunity for the BIG4 to make more profit off an irrational motocross population by convincing them that a less reliable, more expensive, and heavier machine is a better bike. The problem now, is that not many can afford them with a disappearing middle class, they force tracks to get shut down due to noise pollution, the injury rate for severe spinal injuries has skyrocketed, and the racing is less exciting on a national televised level for non-motocrossers, which isn't going to boost the television ratings and help the sport grow...
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Vet57 12/28/2010 6:04am
12/28/2010 6:04am
All I know is...what happened to that global warming thing? I was so looking forward to it!
jmar
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jmar 12/28/2010 6:15am
12/28/2010 6:15am
Rupert X wrote:
What confounds THIS ENTIRE argument is that MOST of the Japanese mfrs STILL make two-strokes for kids ( 50/65 and 85) - so , none of...


What confounds THIS ENTIRE argument is that MOST of the Japanese mfrs STILL

make two-strokes for kids ( 50/65 and 85) - so , none of the traditional argument

models - involving the Japanese conspiracy - actually work.

If you use logic - and I sometimes do - there's not a whole lot of logic to any of this.
Racer92 wrote:
The logic is simple. The rolling hand-grenades make more money for the OEMS. The tried & true smoker, doesnt.

Turn the page.
Hank_Thrill wrote:
Exactly! 4-strokes were pushed upon the masses during an era of strong economic growth, which provided the opportunity for the BIG4 to make more profit off...


Exactly! 4-strokes were pushed upon the masses during an era of strong economic growth, which provided the opportunity for the BIG4 to make more profit off an irrational motocross population by convincing them that a less reliable, more expensive, and heavier machine is a better bike. The problem now, is that not many can afford them with a disappearing middle class, they force tracks to get shut down due to noise pollution, the injury rate for severe spinal injuries has skyrocketed, and the racing is less exciting on a national televised level for non-motocrossers, which isn't going to boost the television ratings and help the sport grow...
Hank

This "Less Reliable" stuff is incorrect.
I know people that have years on the new four strokes, that have do nothing but (properly) change the air filter and oil. Like I keep saying, they do have more moving pieces, and they will not take abuse from a shade tree wrench like a two stroke will.
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Racer92 12/28/2010 6:27am
12/28/2010 6:27am
jmar wrote:
Hank This "Less Reliable" stuff is incorrect. I know people that have years on the new four strokes, that have do nothing but (properly) change the...
Hank

This "Less Reliable" stuff is incorrect.
I know people that have years on the new four strokes, that have do nothing but (properly) change the air filter and oil. Like I keep saying, they do have more moving pieces, and they will not take abuse from a shade tree wrench like a two stroke will.
Honest question: You prefer having more moving parts when there is a mill available that does the same job, that costs less to buy initially, will take more abuse and has less moving parts to fail ?
nospeed
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nospeed 12/28/2010 6:35am
12/28/2010 6:35am
At the amature level, the majority of the people still think that they need a four stroke. I say let them have it. For the wise minority, take adavantage of the rules in the amature class and ride a 250 2 stroke in the 250 class. Your wallet will thank you.

With only two manufactures making 2 strokes in the US, you don't need to buy new. There are still, clean, used 2 strokes ready to be raced.
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jmar 12/28/2010 6:40am
12/28/2010 6:40am
jmar wrote:
Hank This "Less Reliable" stuff is incorrect. I know people that have years on the new four strokes, that have do nothing but (properly) change the...
Hank

This "Less Reliable" stuff is incorrect.
I know people that have years on the new four strokes, that have do nothing but (properly) change the air filter and oil. Like I keep saying, they do have more moving pieces, and they will not take abuse from a shade tree wrench like a two stroke will.
Racer92 wrote:
Honest question: You [i]prefer[/i] having more moving parts when there is a mill available that does the same job, that costs less to buy initially, will...
Honest question: You prefer having more moving parts when there is a mill available that does the same job, that costs less to buy initially, will take more abuse and has less moving parts to fail ?
As always, there's a trade off for performance.

I have played major rolls (including helping finance) pro level race teams. Keep in mind, we didn't have 20k 250f motors like PC, but it was a lot less work, and less money to run 250fs vs the tweaked out 125s.

Keep in mind, this was in the early 2000s.
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Racer92 12/28/2010 6:47am
12/28/2010 6:47am
jmar wrote:
As always, there's a trade off for performance. I have played major rolls (including helping finance) pro level race teams. Keep in mind, we didn't have...
As always, there's a trade off for performance.

I have played major rolls (including helping finance) pro level race teams. Keep in mind, we didn't have 20k 250f motors like PC, but it was a lot less work, and less money to run 250fs vs the tweaked out 125s.

Keep in mind, this was in the early 2000s.
Yeah, I can see that. But who did it serve to make the 250F to begin with? The target end user or the OEM & bolt-on suppliers? Looks like the only beneficiary of those valve-munchers is the OEMs et. al. Because motocross was just as fun before the rolling hand grenades showed up. I although I havent compiled data to prove it, I would contend it was safer. Johnny-Weekend-Rider gets a lot of false confidence from the tractors allowing less skilled riders to attempt more risky obstacles. If you wanna go fast on a tiddler, you will have to earn it.

I realize it might be cheaper for Pros to make a 250F competitive than a full-tweak 125 tiddler, but who buys more units; Pros or Johnny-Weekend-Rider ?

Simpler is always better.

slowvet
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slowvet 12/28/2010 6:55am
12/28/2010 6:55am
I'm working on a 3 stroke in my head, this could take a while.
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jmar 12/28/2010 6:58am
12/28/2010 6:58am
jmar wrote:
As always, there's a trade off for performance. I have played major rolls (including helping finance) pro level race teams. Keep in mind, we didn't have...
As always, there's a trade off for performance.

I have played major rolls (including helping finance) pro level race teams. Keep in mind, we didn't have 20k 250f motors like PC, but it was a lot less work, and less money to run 250fs vs the tweaked out 125s.

Keep in mind, this was in the early 2000s.
Racer92 wrote:
Yeah, I can see that. But who did it serve to make the 250F to begin with? The target end user or the OEM & bolt-on...
Yeah, I can see that. But who did it serve to make the 250F to begin with? The target end user or the OEM & bolt-on suppliers? Looks like the only beneficiary of those valve-munchers is the OEMs et. al. Because motocross was just as fun before the rolling hand grenades showed up. I although I havent compiled data to prove it, I would contend it was safer. Johnny-Weekend-Rider gets a lot of false confidence from the tractors allowing less skilled riders to attempt more risky obstacles. If you wanna go fast on a tiddler, you will have to earn it.

I realize it might be cheaper for Pros to make a 250F competitive than a full-tweak 125 tiddler, but who buys more units; Pros or Johnny-Weekend-Rider ?

Simpler is always better.

It's no different than today cars and trucks.

30 years ago, we could easily work on our own cars and trucks. Today, not so much.
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88sdad 12/28/2010 7:14am
12/28/2010 7:14am
Racer92 wrote:
Yeah, I can see that. But who did it serve to make the 250F to begin with? The target end user or the OEM & bolt-on...
Yeah, I can see that. But who did it serve to make the 250F to begin with? The target end user or the OEM & bolt-on suppliers? Looks like the only beneficiary of those valve-munchers is the OEMs et. al. Because motocross was just as fun before the rolling hand grenades showed up. I although I havent compiled data to prove it, I would contend it was safer. Johnny-Weekend-Rider gets a lot of false confidence from the tractors allowing less skilled riders to attempt more risky obstacles. If you wanna go fast on a tiddler, you will have to earn it.

I realize it might be cheaper for Pros to make a 250F competitive than a full-tweak 125 tiddler, but who buys more units; Pros or Johnny-Weekend-Rider ?

Simpler is always better.

Quote of the day for me.... "Simpler is always better".

Life's a lot less stressful the simpler you make it.
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Racer92 12/28/2010 7:18am
12/28/2010 7:18am
jmar wrote:
It's no different than today cars and trucks.

30 years ago, we could easily work on our own cars and trucks. Today, not so much.
So we are in agreement, its not the end-user who is benefiting from this stuff.

Follow the money.

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wardy
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wardy 12/28/2010 7:25am
12/28/2010 7:25am
the other day i typed a whole bunch of thoughtful stuff about this shit again. but who gives a shit. the blind will lead the blind til well we lose another 20% of our racers. They turn into riders who just like to ride what they want or quit because they have to pay the light bill and put gas in the vehicle to git to work.

jmar is exactly correct.

Being that we owned a body shop for 25 years prior to getting into the off road riding business, it's simple to see the similairities.

make a vehicle that a normal simple mechanic can't work on easily. that way they support the dealer network and parts have to be bought through oem sources completely.

Problem with that metality, it's a recreational sport not a means of travel people need to get through life.


all the rest is bullshit. we got the rules changed back to late (amatuer side).

It would be nice to see Suzuki re-fit thier 250 smoker with a current frame so we could buy a few........ I am a Honda guy, but give up on any fact they will ever see the light. Just how many friggin models of quads can you buy today???? but i only get two choices in adult mx machines? and forget that 150 crap for my youngest, that won't ever happen.

And by the way.

Thank YOU Service Honda!!!!! Personally I still get to enjoy racing a 500 smoker in a current frame and it's NEW! Just not sure I could keep my boys in those hybrids the whole time........thankfully we have been able to find super clean 125's and well should get one more year out of them. AND when it's time to sell them, get damn near what we paid for them.........try that with a turd.


Mitch payton's video pretty much summed up the problem, and if guys like him would step up and allow the pro's rules to follow the amatuer rules I would maybe give two shits about who rides what and maybe go to a pro race again. I really liked "OPEN" class, oh wait those aren't open bikes LOL!!!! yea thats it.


I guess here soon i will be hearing helicopters and shit so time to go back to reading it's really funny to watch sheep being herded.

because we all know if you dislike the way our sport has been pushed, you must be old, and don't know nuthin........
burn1986
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burn1986 12/28/2010 7:31am
12/28/2010 7:31am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2010 7:31am
X2 Propaganda
mikey
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mikey 12/28/2010 7:35am
12/28/2010 7:35am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2010 7:36am
Personally as an amateur rider who rides mainly because I enjoy it and just races occasionally I like the 2 stroke more. I just enjoy riding it more because it is cheaper to maintain, simpler to work on, never bogs and handles well.



I think the OEMs do want to push the 4 strokes because they make more money on them, and so does the aftermarket. However, at the end of the day the customer is still king. If more and more people buy 2 strokes then the manufacturers will have no choice but to sell a 2 stroke in the US or lose (more) money. I think Yamaha has the right idea, and I think KTM does too if they could control the cost of parts for their bikes. Who knows maybe Husky or TM will make some progress in US sales? I dunno, I'm not sure how their bikes compare.
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lumpy790 12/28/2010 7:50am
12/28/2010 7:50am
nospeed wrote:
At the amature level, the majority of the people still think that they need a four stroke. I say let them have it. For the wise...
At the amature level, the majority of the people still think that they need a four stroke. I say let them have it. For the wise minority, take adavantage of the rules in the amature class and ride a 250 2 stroke in the 250 class. Your wallet will thank you.

With only two manufactures making 2 strokes in the US, you don't need to buy new. There are still, clean, used 2 strokes ready to be raced.
There are more than 2 2 stroke brands in the USA.

A friend in Maryland just became a Gas Gas dealer and they have a 125 & 250 2 strokers.

TM has 2 strokers too and Gary Semics is now on TM's.

http://tmracingmotorcycles.com/2010/11/legendary-motocross-racer-gary-s…
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Void Main 12/28/2010 7:57am
12/28/2010 7:57am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2010 7:58am
mikey wrote:
Personally as an amateur rider who rides mainly because I enjoy it and just races occasionally I like the 2 stroke more. I just enjoy riding...
Personally as an amateur rider who rides mainly because I enjoy it and just races occasionally I like the 2 stroke more. I just enjoy riding it more because it is cheaper to maintain, simpler to work on, never bogs and handles well.



I think the OEMs do want to push the 4 strokes because they make more money on them, and so does the aftermarket. However, at the end of the day the customer is still king. If more and more people buy 2 strokes then the manufacturers will have no choice but to sell a 2 stroke in the US or lose (more) money. I think Yamaha has the right idea, and I think KTM does too if they could control the cost of parts for their bikes. Who knows maybe Husky or TM will make some progress in US sales? I dunno, I'm not sure how their bikes compare.
You forget that the manufacturers control how many 2-strokes they sell. As I said, I haven't seen a YZ250 on the floor of any local Yamaha dealer in at least 3 years. People have said that's because they sell them as soon as they get them. Well they might only get 1 for the entire year and if that sells right away why don't they put more of them out next time? The only conclusion I can come to is because "they don't want to sell 2-strokes". I've been hard core Yamaha all my life but my next new bike will be a KTM or GasGas.
wardy
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wardy 12/28/2010 8:19am
12/28/2010 8:19am
maybe this is the way the european bikes make a come back? I know in the HS racing that we have done for two years now, (after 35 years of moto) euro bikes are accepted and ridden alot. there is contingency etc.

oh and smokers are previlant it's at least 50/50 smokers to turds.

fill that thumper full of water in a creek crossing once, that will be an expensive day.
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englishman 12/28/2010 8:22am
12/28/2010 8:22am
Here's a question for you:

What would happen if everyone stopped buying 4 strokes and just bought 2's from the guys that still make them Yam , KTM, TM, Gas-Gas, Husky etc . Would Honda, Kawasaki & Suzuki say " MX sales are dead " and stop producing MX bikes or would they start producing 2 strokes again.

Hypothetical scenario of course just interested in what you all think.
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FreshTopEnd 12/28/2010 9:21am
12/28/2010 9:21am
englishman wrote:
Here's a question for you: What would happen if everyone stopped buying 4 strokes and just bought 2's from the guys that still make them Yam...
Here's a question for you:

What would happen if everyone stopped buying 4 strokes and just bought 2's from the guys that still make them Yam , KTM, TM, Gas-Gas, Husky etc . Would Honda, Kawasaki & Suzuki say " MX sales are dead " and stop producing MX bikes or would they start producing 2 strokes again.

Hypothetical scenario of course just interested in what you all think.
It's a good question. I suspect the businessmen at the big four may not be as committed to building racing dirt bikes as we would like to think given the sales numbers at issue. But would I put that at 50-50; can't say.

I think the question is better put to a dealer running as full line dealership selling street, off road and mx bikes. Those are the guys with a better grip on what bikes are essential to profitability.
nospeed
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nospeed 12/28/2010 9:24am
12/28/2010 9:24am
englishman wrote:
Here's a question for you: What would happen if everyone stopped buying 4 strokes and just bought 2's from the guys that still make them Yam...
Here's a question for you:

What would happen if everyone stopped buying 4 strokes and just bought 2's from the guys that still make them Yam , KTM, TM, Gas-Gas, Husky etc . Would Honda, Kawasaki & Suzuki say " MX sales are dead " and stop producing MX bikes or would they start producing 2 strokes again.

Hypothetical scenario of course just interested in what you all think.
I suspect that Honda would walk away but the other two may keep on going. But it won't happen, too many people like the 4 stroke.

My view on 2 stroke vs 4 stroke is all based upon what I have seen with the 250 four stroke in D17 (Illinois). In stock form, they aren't too bad if you keep up with the valves but still more expensive than an 2 stroke. The problem is that the top guys mod the heck out of them (head work, big bores, etc). This has made the lights class a money pit. If you are not willing to spend big $$ you are screwed. I suppose that it was that way with the 125's but the price to go fast wasn't as high as it is now.

wardy
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wardy 12/28/2010 10:32am
12/28/2010 10:32am
what is one of the "Bigger" classes in d-17 last year. 125cc class.

also the 85cc classes are right up there. 250 and open C classes are the biggest of course, and many riders in those classes are riding some form of smoker. thumpers donminate the numbers in the C classes. But what i have seen in125 classes the last three years it interesting.

it will only take ONE of the big four to blink and build a current frame smoker to make it a viable option. Likely the one that is 'hurting" the most, because it's simple people are not buying bikes much. They wait til there on the floor for a year or two and then buy it greatly reduced.

a used 125 around here that is 4 years old, brings as much or more then a 2 year old 250f.........
wardy
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wardy 12/28/2010 10:37am
12/28/2010 10:37am Edited Date/Time 12/28/2010 10:38am
here is our top ten classes by participation we have 32 classes and these numbers were over 80 events. 5 of the top 10 classes are basically 2 stroke classes. But us local race type people have no clue what is going on. It's all about the the latest, the newest, and what the oem's shovel. like that dude says in the movie "taken".........."good luck".

1 250 C 1305
2 Open C 853
3 250 B 707
4 85 Sr 703
5 85 Jr 694
6 Super Mini 608
7 65 Jr 573
8 Open B 539
9 125cc 527
10 4-Wheel C 483

and a TOTP to boot!!! wow

Post a reply to: Okay, here's what I find kooky in two-stroke/four-stroke arguments