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The peaceful islamists over in Aus had a public display with a megaphone calling the event courageous. But clearly there's no problem.
It’s quite clearly about Islamic Terrorists in Australia, targeting Jews in anti-Semitic attacks, while gathering for the beginning of Hanukah.
Your statement was that you did not need religion to show you what is morally right and wrong. So there’s some objective morality that you know to follow. My point is that morality in the western world has been developed over centuries and has its foundations in Christianity. You probably wouldn’t have the same moral intuition if you were born in a hut somewhere in sub Saharan Africa. Your morality code didn’t just divine itself to coincide with popular Christianity, but was informed by it.
And I never set out to prove god to you. I didn’t even say you should be Christian. I just took issue with your claim that you can calibrate your moral compass in a vacuum devoid of religion.
I haven't been to Sydney in 25+ years. I always had a desire to immigrate there when I was young but didn't want to take the kids away from Grand Parents. One of my favorite places to travel, I was there many times. My recollection of Bondi Beach was this beautiful beach full of beautiful people having a great time. (I actually got caught in the rip there and had to swim my ass of to get back as I didn't want to be "that tourist that had to be rescued"). The whole city was full of beautiful friendly people. People would ask me to describe Sydney and I would tell them it's like San Diego in the 70s, laid back friendly people, low crime, low stress, just awesome. I can't even imagine how my favorite placed changed so much over a short 25 years that something like this is even possible. I hurt for all the Aussies affected by this.
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carry on people
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This.
You can dig into history and find people doing all kinds of horrible things for all kinds of reasons and spin it however you want, but the issue today is obvious and should be obvious regardless of what your beliefs are or what happened in the past.
There is no other religion that has governments backing the terrorist sects within that religion. There is no other religion celebrating the murder of a 10 year old girl on a beach. Christians aren't celebrating the murder of a 10 year old girl on a beach. Jews aren't celebrating the murder of a 10 year old girl on a beach. There's no other religion parading hostages through the streets to the cheers of thousands after they invade a music festival. There is no modern example of similar actions of that scale being perpetrated and celebrated by any other religion. There's just one.
This false equivalency that always gets brought up does not line up with reality today. It's a very real mystery to me why so many refuse to acknowledge it. Hate religion in general, hate Christians or Jews specifically if you want to, but be honest about what is actually happening in the world as it exists today.
And another question since those in denial always bring up the relatively small number of X that are actually in whatever country being discussed, where's the line?
What percentage is tolerable if we're talking about people who hate you and don't want to assimilate? What percentage is it that has Paris canceling new years? Doesn't it concern you that they're able to have such a disproportionate impact on society while making up such a small part of it? If this is what's happening at 5%, what do you think happens at 20%? At what percentage will you care?
I would say it’s relevant to bring up when people compare and claim that one religion, particularly in the context of abrahamic religions, is morally superior to another. You don’t have to go back far at all. It’s still going on today in all 3 of those religions and one doesn’t have to look hard to find it.
I should have said all Abrahamic religions have at one time or another committed horrible atrocities, though, rather than all followers.
I’m no atheist either btw. I just don’t see any one of those 3 religions occupying some moral high ground.
Acknowledging and learning from the past is how we evolve. But being so emotionally charged and pointing the finger at others and being so desperate to defend a position that can’t really be defended and frankly doesn’t need to be defended, I can’t help but think is counterproductive towards evolving or learning. I mean it’s faith right? It comes from within, it’s personal, it doesn’t need to be defended.
Once you realize that salvation lies within, judging others based on their beliefs, or claiming others beliefs are invalid while yours is somehow valid, becomes a redundant practice.
That’s an interesting viewpoint. Which begs the question: was western world morality based on Christianity, or was Christianity founded on morality?
Judaism preaches that children with Downs Syndrome are chosen by God. This was due to parents sometimes abandoning or even killing their afflicted offspring. Making those acts punishable by God was spurred by basic moral guidelines, not Devine intervention. Much like the consumption of pork was forbidden, not because God mandated it, but because spoiled pork was killing people.
Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and shares many philosophical concepts. Religion brings joy to countless millions, and the ability to “Let go and let God” seems calming. It’s always an interesting conversation.
What are the currently ongoing Christian or Jewish examples of state sponsored and widely celebrated atrocities targeted against innocent women and children?
What’s going on in Gaza would be an easy example
What's going on there is entirely different, but regardless, if you think the Jews are to blame for that one then we've found a clear point of disagreement.
What's the old saying? If the islamists put down their weapons there would be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons they'd be exterminated.
My faith..?
To hate others?
Dude, that statement makes you out to be a complete psycho. Period.
Where am I hating on anyone? What did I comment on while citing any spiritual positions or faith based beliefs? How do you invent a position that doesn’t exist? What drugs are you on…or….what drugs should you be on in order to control your kookiness? Damn.
Again…Bondi Beach… lives lost to murderous pieces of shit who apparently hate Jews.
So if muslims are incapable of living with folks of other religions we should work to limit their ownership of Western companies and land and work to reduce their income streams that fuel their expansionist ambitions, right?
I’m not placing blame on any one participant more than any other. I’m not defending or endorsing anyone. I’m just trying to make an argument that no religion is morally superior or morally justified in killing in the name of their god.
To say so nonchalantly “it’s different” is extremely subjective and definitely ridiculous. From the Palestinian perspective they are freedom fighters. Fighting for their culture and their right to exist in their own country.
If Hamas came to your state or town and tried to take it over would you not resist and fight back with everything you had?
I’m only trying to argue that claiming a monopoly on god and killing to validate that monopoly is a shocking and astonishingly idiotic exercise.
Canada, the US, Australia, ... all need to follow suit.
Common sense:
What you're describing is war. I'm talking about terrorism against non combatants. That's not subjective and yes it's quite easy to say those two things are very different things. You're being obtuse on this because you know the Abrahamic religions you mention are not the same on this issue.
Easy there, Truck. The vast majority of people killed in Gaza are non-combatants. They might not be attending a festival, but the women & children put in between Hamas and the IDF are not toting weapons or strapped with IEDs.
I'll say what needs to be said, the people of Gaza elected and supported people who attacked their neighboring country and murdered innocents. What they have received is retribution for that aggression. Consequences.
Pit Row
No doubt, but they aren't being killed because Israel wants to specifically kill them. They aren't setting out to kill them and celebrating that they've done it. One side takes reasonable steps to avoid killing innocents while the other uses them as human shields and targets them for shock value.
Hamas has effectively operated as a dictatorship since the last true elections (ie more than one party) in 2006. Coupled with increasingly strict border control by the IDF, the majority of Gaza’s population have never cast legitimate votes. I’m in now way condoning Hamas’ actions but the killing of children is abhorrent, especially when there are options. And make no mistake, Israel has options.
Just my 2¢, but if you have to go back centuries to find atrocities committed by one group, and Saturday for the atrocities committed by the other, your comparison doesn't hold water.
In among the various 'to and froing' of ideas here, I only just came across this, that , to me, brought a bit of welcome levity to the thread:
From Twigster : "The big migrant problem where I live is English people moving in who refuse to speak Welsh and who get shitty with the locals that do, who simultaneously demand place names be changed to something 'easier to say'."
It just made me laugh, while reading a lot of varied opinions.
My Grandad, for whom I built the Granny Flat on the end of my house , for his last years, was a Brit / Welshman. Family name of Ryder. He'd occasionally speak in Welsh, and, he'd often go on about the 'English' - always being so bloody funny about it.
Twigsters' writing reminded me of the Mad Old Bastard . I miss him.
As a side note, on the subject of Immigrants - Bondi has been a 'settling place' for so, So many of those Flamin' Bloody Kiwis, for so many years! We, like the USA, are a Nation of Immigrants, and, we've even taken in those Horrible Bloody Kiwis - Bounders and Cads All! ( we luvs yuz, Kiwis 🤪).
Israel has access to the most precise weapons ever made. When they want to, they can be extremely surgical with their targeting.
There’s a big reason to believe that a huge portion of the ‘collateral damage’ they inflict isn’t completely ‘collateral’…….
We got your backs mate
You still believe that? After the IDF has killed over 300 innocent Palestinians since this supposed “cease fire” went into effect, including women and children that narrative has completely gone out the window. Let’s also not forget that Israel continues to block the agreed upon aid trucks from entering Gaza which has resulted in the death of multiple infant aged children due to exposure to recent harsh weather. Or maybe we can discuss the multitude of incidents where IDF forces have shot innocent civilians attempting to return to their homes located near the supposed “yellow line” that is not clearly marked but is evidently enforceable by death if it’s is crossed. Or do you want to bring up the multiple officials within the Israeli government that have expressed desire to kill as many Palestinians as possible and regard them as sub-human? If that’s not enough maybe sending drone strikes near UN peacekeepers may be considered an act of terror?
I can do on and on but you chose a really bad example to make, if we’re serious about getting this bullshit to stop people need to call a spade a spade and treat all acts of terror equally.
Define "non combatants" because they grow up being taught to hate the "Jews", that they need to kill the "Jews" if they have opportunity, and if they have nothing more than rocks to throw as a child, that's what they "need" to do. So while they may not be wearing a uniform, please explain to us where the line is before you calculate the percentage of who got killed.
I remember sitting in a meeting in England for a machinery sale with our English reps. Customers were from Wales, I needed a bloody interpreter, couldn't understand a fricken thing that came out of their mouth. For all I knew they were trying to talk with potatos stuff in their mouths. 🤣
The islamic guys can now marry 9 year old girls. Think about that.
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