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And im telling you that is not the promotors fault. Have you seen a modern camping/RV site today compared to the 80s? You barerly had showers, indoor modern toilets. No electricity. No restaurant. No serveing rights for beveraes. Space for a tent 2x3m tent and your car. Packed together with no consideration for fire regulation.
If you ran that RV/camping site you where out of business 20 or 25 years ago.
It has very little to do with the promotors telling a A or B-team to buy an 18 wheeler, hire 10 people for the crew, reserve space for another 30 foot trailer or van etc etc. Promotors has no say in the reguirement from cities or local authorities that needs to support such events. Riders require prepped tracks meaning you need to be able to water the tracks and access it with equipment without running all over the parts of the track you want to maintain as is. Specators cant stand within several meters of the track.
Tracks are much better prepped today than 30 years ago. We didnt even water the tracks at our nationals and it was blue groove concrete by lunch if it was hardpacked and if was dry you couldnt see shit because of all the dust. We cancel races today in the end of the day in those conditions, because riders dont want to race on it, never the less we get zero people to come and practise if we let it be like that. Is that the promotors fault?
You think todays riders would like to ride a track like Carlbad or Namur was in the 70 or 80? It was Supermotard tracks compared to today, narrow, no saftey concerns, hard slick like Pala. It woldnt make it through practise without the teams calling for it to be cancelled. Thats not promotors fault.
Its evolution. Everyone expects more. So no, i dont hink tracks was better.
What has an RV camping site got to do with MX tracks...?? I'm talking about the tracks being compromised and you keep banging on about the very thing that is compromising them.? Like I've said about 3 or 4 times now; it's the trend towards oversized pits and clutter that needs addressing - not neutering the tracks to cater for them. For every team that moans they can't get their 18 wheeler into a track, there will be ten that will be happy to downsize to vans. How much of a teams' budget is put aside for the "show" now, compared to 30 years ago?
You mention Carlsbad and Namur as examples of bad old tracks and while Carlsbad was pretty blue-groove and rough it had a great atmosphere. Then by using Namur as an example of "bad" you're showing some really big ignorance of the fans and riders. Ask anyone who went there either as a rider or fan and they'll all tell you it was incredible. Rough? Yes. Tricky to ride? Yes. Good for TV? No. Infrastructure? Not really. But ask anyone about atmosphere, history and racing and they'll tell you it was up there with the best and is still missed. Was it dangerous? Yes, but so is a man-made 100ft jump with a rutted take-off.
You mention track prep is better today and in some ways it is but in a lot of others it isn't. Old tracks had grass and bumps that needed a rider to find lines. New tracks are ripped deep and watered, and end up with a rutted one-line slot-car track with only one fast way round it. A natural surface with a bit of modern prep and light watering would be way better.
What a complete joke of a track for the world's other most prestigious MX series. It makes me really appreciate the tracks we have here, because Finland even made Pala look world-class.
If you can't see the correlation between expectations of infrastructure and service level for a RV site that is at the same time very close to a MX pit I don't know what to say.
Seems like you are stuck at 1980. 1980 is not today, you can't take what people thought was great back then and apply to that everyone would think it's great today.
No one wants to go to a 1980 RV site. It's the same, no one wants to go to or ride or work on the type of tracks that I mention without infrastructure. Not the riders, mechanics, promotors, media, sponsors, VIP programs, campers, track staff and who ever the fuck is used to a certain level of standard.
That disqualifies most tracks.
What's so hard to understand? Without infrastructure there is less interest to do a race for pretty much everyone.
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This is the first year in 12 years I have not had a tv subscription to MXGP and it is easy to see why. How can they not try to fill the gate? How do they not go find a US rider, Canadian rider, and maybe one or two others to bring over to race? I mean hell pay for them to be there if you have to just to sell tickets, tv, and spur interest in the racing worldwide. Sad state of MXGP sucks because there are some very good riders there and at this point, I would say leave! Jump to the US Nationals or race the EU based nationals.
The interesting thing here is you're both making good points, while at the same point missing things as well.
You're correct about the need for infrastructure and additional space Aees, especially with how things are laid out currently, but at the same time you're assuming that the organising body isn't laying out stipulations to teams around sponsors, VIP access and so on which MXGP most definitely does. You're also assuming that lower costs of travel, entry, movement of manpower etc wouldn't appeal to all of the teams entering riders into GP's every weekend if that was scaled back slightly, which it absolutely would.
On your last point about Carlsbad etc.. I'd bet you actually a lot of riders would have been more than happy going there. The trend to increasingly prepped tracks (which are a lot less rough than back in the 1990's and before), was only partly about dust and more a thing about trying to create more spectacular jumps and ease of adding TV cameras etc that's made it so now riders see a puff of dust and immediately shit themselves because they actually know no different (especially at amateur level).
At it's heart some of this is a discussion about what motocross really is. Either it's a man-made flat-track ripped deep and soaking wet so we are always racing on January tracks where suspension can be stiff as fuck and bikes ever faster, where every corner is a mess of ruts and berms become akin to dragons where they are only found in books or old movies... Or... It's as much man and machine versus nature as it is anything else, hills become fucking terrifying to stare up at again as you round a corner, suspension has to go back to being soft enough to soak up tracks that are rough as fuck and we actually need different types of tyres instead of permanently running scoops.
I'll admit I don't really know what the 'right' answer here is, nor would I presume to answer for everyone else.
My own personal view though, based on my 40+ years racing, looking at responses on this thread and others talking about tracks, responses from the riders themselves in interviews and on social posts etc though.. I think it's clear that people across mx right now feel like the heart of the sport has gone too far down the man-made route and we are losing the variety that made MX a year-round sport. Tracks are over-groomed, safety concerns aren't being listened to (despite you mentioning safety in your rebuttal it's still fucking terrible and amateurish compared to other motorsports), speeds are getting too high, costs for all levels are getting out of hand. We are a small sport in the global scale of $$$ earned and spent, but in MXGP and the US we are hiding behind pay to view and adding massive costs to promoters and participants that are unsustainable. No, going back 40 years isn't smart, but maybe dialling back ten to fifteen years isn't such a bad thing.
Motocross hasn't been that for 20-30 years. There is no discussion about what Motocross is. Time to let the passed go as most have done.
The requirements are everywhere in society. The same requirements apply to every local race:
Larger pit areas required. Dedicated and enough washing spaces. Electricity. Showers. Nicer toilets (local series avoid places without certain level of pit size, club house and fixed infrastructure), Internet connection for media, cooled facilities for time keepers and media. Need to maintain fire escape routes and pit area clearance between veichles.
On the map now and being discussed as coming requirements: Charging capability for electric bikes and cars/veichles. Fiber connection for internet because people expect to be able to upload and stream video.
Exactly what from the above does the promotors has to do with? Nothing. There isn't even a promotor involved for those series.
Professional Riders don't go to small sized tracks with poorly prepp (like 80s or 90s) without automatic or systematic watering capability. They are out at lunch at Glen Helen because prepp is lost.
Build an SX track from 80s or early 90s and see how that goes. You think it would turn out well?
lol, 150 riders? Any local race in the US that is a poor turn out
What are you getting at? There was 180 in spring Creek 450 and 250 class and 140 or so in Finland (excl wmx). Hard to compare because you have riders spread on 4 classes vs 2 in US. And we are talking about world championship running in multiple countries.
So according to you its a piss poor turn out at AMA nationals currently.
Of course there could be more at a local race. Everyone not supposed to be at the premier series.
Pretty sure I’m the minority on this one, while the track looked horrible for spectators, I thought it looked like a fun track to ride with pretty decent passing opportunities
Ok so couple things...
First, you mention the 80's and 90's again when I just specifically said that wasn't a good idea. You've also just banged on about infrastructure again, when I also said you were right on that.
You then talk in absolutes abut the sport and the current state of it, which I fundamentally disagree with. Go and look at the riders talking about Milville, and then the conversations about Aidan Zingg. Or any recent thread on here about tracks. That discussion is alive and well, and needs sorting out as a matter of urgency no matter if you like it or think it's relevant or not. If we don't have it ourselves, someone external will do it for us and the likely outcome in that scenario isn't going to be good for the sport.
It's not a generational shift in tracks there is talk about, right? Not going back or fwd to something new or different.
It's for one, about applying track safety that honestly is already there in most countries where FIM operate. Not perfect, but much better.
And two, stopp pushing the hitch lever all the way down when you're in the tractor running the cultivator, it's seamless you know and you can stop at 60% down.
I don't see what that has anything to do with this thread about running a race at an arena that has the infrastructure but not the right track and boring viewing spots that this thread is all about. Unless I missed something?
I talked with an old guy (70) who was in Finland at the GP. He has run his own MX series for 15 years (not promotor series, more coordinated type of series) and ridden his hole life. Familfly involved in MX on multiple levels. He was happy, didn't have any complaints. Maybe that's a direct connection to the generational stuff. People (younger) expect more today.
I agree they could have at least cut the grass and fixed infield a bit. Didn't look great on TV.
This track tried to host a doubleheader round of an european rallycross series but the track was getting ~destroyed~ after each heat race they had to the point were they decided to cancell the doubleheader and split the 'one event' in two days in order for the track fixing to be more manageable. They were all in good spirits and worked really hard but the whole track complex looks like something super rushed just to "make stuff work". I think they were also trying to host MotoGP races but the circuit is not complete.
Regarding MxGP im just watching the 125 class, always filled and with good racing, cant complain. Mx and Mx2 I keep an eye on the results and thats it. I dont even know 70% of the grid tbh lol. Mx2 even worst. I know 3 or 4 guys only. Really not interested at the moment
Finland have many grear tracks but towns or clubs are not willing to pay mxgp. Kymiring race track had MotoGP and MxGP deals like 5 years ago but track or fasility never finished and went to banktrup. They even held racw in Hyvinkää track one year to replace this event. New owner wanted to get MxGP again but track in midfield of race track isnt working and other races like Adac made teams to go there because Finland is ”far” away from central Europe. Felt little ashemed when watching broadcast replay from hbomax.
Nobody is saying "go back to 1980" but the sport has to look at what has gone wrong since then and now if we're going to address the problems in the GP's. Yes, people came to past GP's and riders fought to get in them back then. So the question is; why then and not now? What's changed? It's the approach to tracks and the fact that the background bullshit has become more important than the track.
"without infrastructure there is less interest to do a race for pretty much everyone". Really? You sure about that? How's those GP gate and spectator numbers doing lately at these awesome RV parks..?
Without all the off-track bells and whistles, to quote you; "this disqualifies most tracks". Exactly. See the problem yet...?
MXGP is not the most prestigious series, hasn't been in a long time. Chasing money over a quality series has destroyed MXGP in my opinion. Any series that screws the riders and teams as much as MXGP has is bound to fail also.
Why not Hyvinkka? It seems like past tracks they raced at in Finland were always pretty good, had alot of spectators. Very sad track in my home country.
Pit Row
Agree on this one, Couple of pretty big doubles with sketchy short launches for the average joe but other than that, very rideable looking track. Although, we walked the track after the event and some places were absolutely destroyed. The left hander going out from the top part had a thigh-deep hole on the inside line, don't understand how any of the riders even used that anymore.
Yea this is what matters. Racing was good, semi difficult. Assen was also good racing at.
Ain't that many famous sand tracks anyway that has hills and naturally elevated landscaping as key elements. Belgium and Netherlands isn't exactly known for that. So this about having tracks smashed into a mountain side I don't subscribe to.
You know why supercross has 30-60k for every race? Because it's convenient for people to go and be there. If I chose, it's SX.
I rarely go to nationals because you typically don't see the whole track, it's warm moving around, limited food and drink capability, parking is a nightmare.
TV provides a better overall continues experience if it is watching racing you are after.
You're literally comparing two different sports... but hey; if you want to do that - why don't GP's have the same crowd numbers then seeing as they're bringing in all the changes to bring similar "comforts"? Could it be that SX doesn't put the track out in the car park to make way for an RV lot.?
Quote: "I rarely go to Nationals..." GP's too, I'm guessing..? You sound like the kind of "fan" that GP's have been trying to attract but never will if everything about being outdoors is such a pain. That's my point all along - the sport needs to quit trying to attract people who aren't interested.
Exactly. Don’t change the very fabric of the sport in an attempt to appeal to people who aren’t interested in motocross, when doing so will piss off those people who are.
Why does then MXON races pull huge crowds every year? With often terrible parking and rainy autumn weather with mud everywhere?
True fans aren't afraid of the natural elements and for many motocross fans it's part of the experience. Motocross fans do not need formula one type of glamour and millionaires hanging on the pits. What the fans want is forty fastest men at the starting gates on a track which provides good natural viewing points and rock festival type atmosphere in the crowd.
It doesn't matter I could have compared it to fotball. Taking your family to a MX race is a fucking project compared to going to a SX race. You don't get it do you? 😅 Peoples preference is comfort so you will never get those numbers on repeat events like a series.
It's a about comfort and service. People want it to be more comfortable. They want it to be better today than 40 years go. Same for riders same for spectators.
We are competing with things in society that is all about comfort and availability. And you want to drag us back so that people gets an even worse experience?
Do you know how many of my friends (we race and ride MX 3-4 times a week both individual and team races, arrange local races, nationals, sit i sports mx committes, club boards and soon, have SMX, MXGP, WSX subscriptions, that just thinks its to much hazzle to go to a national MX race compared to the alternatives? I can guarantee I put in as much hours into our local Mx facility per week as you do per year (if you do any more than paying a entry fee). Basically as much fan as you can be.
Track design is the last thing we and people in general look at.
Its the 1% that goes to the best designed track with a shitty facility and if you try to cater to those you will have no spectators left.
MXoN is a once a year event where people fly in from all over the world.
I can describe what most of the people's that you call true fans are doing there once a year: getting shit faced and partying. Most can't even name top 10 riders. None of them follow the racing on streaming, they cant even tell you who won 250 SX east west when you come to October.
We have about 20-30 in our club or close around. They ride once a year, dont follow the sport but have gone to MXoN for 10 years. It's the same people doing one of the major Enduro races once a year, only race they do.
That's the 1% (or 5%) depending on comparison.
Yeah, 2018, 2021 and 2024 were horrible. Hardly. These things go in waves. Finland was added last minute as a substitute race. Let's see how Loket and Lommel look.
Ok how do you explain then that Finnish WRC rally gathers massive crowd every year in the middle of the woods just to see few seconds of rally cars passing almost 200 kilometers per hour? It's the unique atmosphere what gathers people there. Doing something out of the norm and creating experiences that you will remember last of your life.
https://valonkaupunki.jyvaskyla.fi/en/news/2022-11-17_secto-rally-finla…
If MXGP is the way of the future should AMA nationals also abandon half of the traditional tracks and replace them with tracks built over Walmart parking lot for easy access? Should nationals be also closed series for factory riders and for those who afford to pay for entering the races?
Its the same as MXoN. Its once a year and car racing is typically twice as big as 2 wheel motor sports. If you did it 20 times or more per year i can promise you numbers would go down dramatically.
There is ~1000 tracks in America. Why do you think they keep going back to 12-14 of them? Thats 1.5% of the tracks. In a country with 350 million people. If you translate that you will find 0-2 tracks per country that qualify in the rest of the world where it makes sense to race mx.
So infrastructure is already part of disqualifying 98-99% of the tracks.
How many tracks/places qualified for the discussion for MXoN in USA, from US stand point? 5. Red Bud, Iron Man, Budds, Thunder, Dilla. The rest don't have the supportive infrastructure to host MXoN according to MX sports.
You are just lucky you don't have to invent new tracks that can handle the races, even though it's been done. One that comes to mind is WW ranch (have been there myself) where the owner purpose built it to be able to host a national.
For your information WRC rally is quite similar series what the MXGP is and Finnish rally is part of that series. The race has been held since 1951 every year. https://www.wrc.com/en/calendar
And you didn't answer my question about should AMA nationals be following MXGP example how the races are run?
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