AMA Petition Update

kardy
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8/31/2010 6:24pm
burn1986 wrote:
Okay, maybe it's time to reiterate: [b]This petition is [i]only[/i] to raise the 125 and 250 2-strokes to 150 and 300. That's all it says. [/b]This...
Okay, maybe it's time to reiterate:

This petition is only to raise the 125 and 250 2-strokes to 150 and 300. That's all it says. This is not a crusade or war for the 2-stroke die hards.

Two strokes are still allowed in Pro Racing. This is a small change. It's not meant to try and cause everyone to alter their racing programs or cause factories to immediately drop everything they are doing. This will simple enhance a rule that is already in place.

I mentioned that it was a battle, but that is not entirely true. It is a catalyst. The purpose of this is to begin discussions and approach the AMA with a concern.
You always seem to ignore this most obvious little detail but I'll bring it up again anyhow:, why would you go to the AMA to have a rule changed regarding AMA Pro motocross racing? Why do you keep saying "approach the AMA" or "the AMA rule needs changed"?

AMA Pro is no longer a part of the AMA.... hasn't been for a couple years now, try and keep up.
yak651
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8/31/2010 6:25pm
The year metty was riding the yz125 vs the 250fs towards the end of the season they let him switch to the 250f, if I'm not mistaken his results didn't improve much if any. Don't crucify me, I could be wrong as this was a while ago, but I thought I remember everyone expecting him to run up front once he switched and he was still a way back from the leaders
yak651
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8/31/2010 6:26pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2010 6:27pm
double post
8/31/2010 6:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2010 6:33pm
I loved the 125/250 classes and I also accept the fact that 4 strokes are here to stay. Did the introduction of the 4 strokes help out the sport? In the 450 class it probably helped out the support teams run up and pass some of the factory machines. In the 250 class it's a different story. At the local level it has added a tremendous amount of cost in purchasing and maintaining a motocross bike(s), in addition to, considerable depreciation loss. A simple cheap sport done out of the back of a regular cab 8 ft bed pick up truck is history that isn't about to repeat itself. I love two strokes. Love the hit and the sound of the bike. I just don't give a f#@k if a loud, expensive, tractor pull'n 4 stroke passes me in the same class. Fun just has to come first.

The Shop

sesker15
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8/31/2010 6:34pm
yak651 wrote:
The year metty was riding the yz125 vs the 250fs towards the end of the season they let him switch to the 250f, if I'm not...
The year metty was riding the yz125 vs the 250fs towards the end of the season they let him switch to the 250f, if I'm not mistaken his results didn't improve much if any. Don't crucify me, I could be wrong as this was a while ago, but I thought I remember everyone expecting him to run up front once he switched and he was still a way back from the leaders
Nope you are rite i remember that! Thats why i say its more the rider!!
OW38B
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8/31/2010 6:39pm
burn1986 wrote:
Finally made it back from a couple of days off. As you well know, the petition is up to 2003 signatures. I will have a follow...
Finally made it back from a couple of days off. As you well know, the petition is up to 2003 signatures. I will have a follow up proposal this week and will share it with everyone here.

Apparently, the word of the petition is spreading. Word has it that Davey Coombs is definitely not for it and has said that there is no way this will happen, and that no one in the pro pits wants the two strokes back. But this is only rumor about the pro pits, since several of the pro mechanics and riders ride two strokes and want to see this succeed. It was also rumored that James Stewart and Ricky Carmichael were going to sign it.

Well, I guess its no surprise that DC wouldn't be for it. We knew this would be a fight. Either way, the mission is still the same. The petition is only going to go up and the economy and the race team budgets will continue to go down. This will win out eventually.

I should have some news and the follow up this week. Here's the link:

www.gopetition.com/petition/38076.html
Read my sig, DC says you are wrong.
sesker15
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8/31/2010 6:42pm
burn1986 wrote:
Finally made it back from a couple of days off. As you well know, the petition is up to 2003 signatures. I will have a follow...
Finally made it back from a couple of days off. As you well know, the petition is up to 2003 signatures. I will have a follow up proposal this week and will share it with everyone here.

Apparently, the word of the petition is spreading. Word has it that Davey Coombs is definitely not for it and has said that there is no way this will happen, and that no one in the pro pits wants the two strokes back. But this is only rumor about the pro pits, since several of the pro mechanics and riders ride two strokes and want to see this succeed. It was also rumored that James Stewart and Ricky Carmichael were going to sign it.

Well, I guess its no surprise that DC wouldn't be for it. We knew this would be a fight. Either way, the mission is still the same. The petition is only going to go up and the economy and the race team budgets will continue to go down. This will win out eventually.

I should have some news and the follow up this week. Here's the link:

www.gopetition.com/petition/38076.html
OW38B wrote:
Read my sig, DC says you are wrong.
lol...i was saying 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450. Same results?? No?
FreshTopEnd
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8/31/2010 6:42pm
To make Rock happy, I'll repeat an alternative solution toward parity under the existing displacement rules; require a significant sound reduction targeted to attenuate the greater impact of the four strokes.

But that might not be any easier to get passed.
8/31/2010 6:42pm
yak651 wrote:
The year metty was riding the yz125 vs the 250fs towards the end of the season they let him switch to the 250f, if I'm not...
The year metty was riding the yz125 vs the 250fs towards the end of the season they let him switch to the 250f, if I'm not mistaken his results didn't improve much if any. Don't crucify me, I could be wrong as this was a while ago, but I thought I remember everyone expecting him to run up front once he switched and he was still a way back from the leaders
sesker15 wrote:
Nope you are rite i remember that! Thats why i say its more the rider!!
Stewart SMOKED everyone in the 250F class on a 125.
He even stopped after Gravity Cavity and "Let Chad Bye" and then roosted the $hit out of him too. (Nothin against Reed, at all).
8/31/2010 6:44pm
Other than Stewart, there wasn't any other rider that was competitive on a 125cc bike up against a 4 stroke. Kawasaki should have had a 450 ready to go for Stewart in his first year. They had the 2nd fastest rider in the class on a sub par bike. Carmichael's loss to Windham at Unadilla was one of the best 250 vs 450 contests. Once the GOAT got a hold of a 4 stroke no one could run his pace.
cm244
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8/31/2010 7:09pm
#2167 continuing on....
cm244
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8/31/2010 7:10pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2010 7:13pm
OW38B
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8/31/2010 7:19pm
sesker15 wrote:
lol...i was saying 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450. Same results?? No?
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from the 250cc class correct?
ratonmacias
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8/31/2010 7:19pm
whatever happens with this petition remember that in the end the market has its way of regulating itself. it wont happen next month but eventually when very little people is left riding mx the mighty oems will have to create bikes that appeal to the consumer so that the consumer buys it.

in mexico a 450 is almost 10k usd guess its not dumb to assume you dont see too many 2010 bikes at the tracks this year.

the only part that sucks is that i loved 125 motocrossers and i rode the tiddlers for almost 15 years until nobody but ktm and husky sold 125 motocrossers now im stuck with a 250 rmz that i like to ride but not as much as i did with the tiddler so i'm starting to spend my money at the golf course and the mountain bike shop instead of putting it back at the mx industry as a silent complaint to the lack of 2 stroke bikes available.
sesker15
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8/31/2010 7:24pm
sesker15 wrote:
lol...i was saying 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450. Same results?? No?
OW38B wrote:
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from...
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from the 250cc class correct?
No You are 100% correct!! I feel the same as you do trust me.
OW38B
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8/31/2010 7:31pm
OW38B wrote:
FTE - Is that the "inmates running the asylum?" Bad rules are just that.............bad rules. Just takes someone with average intelligence to address and fix this...
FTE - Is that the "inmates running the asylum?"

Bad rules are just that.............bad rules. Just takes someone with average intelligence to address and fix this issue.

Back to insults. Maybe the intelligent people tried and judged that it was better to have the sport as it is (pro level is all that...
Back to insults. Maybe the intelligent people tried and judged that it was better to have the sport as it is (pro level is all that is implicated) than no sport at all.

Some other intelligent person is welcome to assume the financial risk of creating series where the rules they want can have effect and see if it works. If the OEM's money isn't needed, then it shouldn't be an issue to get that series off the ground and bury MXSports.
That was not an insult. Just pointing out that a fix is very simple.

But you are not trying to argue that if two strokes of equal displacement were allowed to race it would end AMA Pro motocross as we know it, are you?
The Rock
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8/31/2010 7:32pm
To make Rock happy, I'll repeat an alternative solution toward parity under the existing displacement rules; require a significant sound reduction targeted to attenuate the greater...
To make Rock happy, I'll repeat an alternative solution toward parity under the existing displacement rules; require a significant sound reduction targeted to attenuate the greater impact of the four strokes.

But that might not be any easier to get passed.
You had me at hello..........and that's a damn good idea but I agree with your comment about not being easier to get passed.
OW38B
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8/31/2010 7:40pm
sesker15 wrote:
lol...i was saying 125 vs 250f and 250 vs 450. Same results?? No?
OW38B wrote:
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from...
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from the 250cc class correct?
sesker15 wrote:
No You are 100% correct!! I feel the same as you do trust me.
I disagree with DC and his data. I would like to see 2 strokes on an even playing field that's all. Then the AMA Pro's could race one or not race one.

I think AMA Pro Racing is dropping the ball on this and missing a chance to have a 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke battle in their race program.

Sadly, it may never come to pass.
ccoady454
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8/31/2010 8:11pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2010 8:14pm
I think the big four know that if it happens, there's a good chance that many of their top riders might get embarrassed (along with the reputation of their "technolically advanced superbikes") by a unsigned or up-and-coming rookie riding a 90's technology two stroke. Personaly, I would love it as a fan to see the "David vs Goliath" battle, and so would the fans. Corporate suits don't like to be embarrassed though, even if it is by their own brand of a two sroke. The price factor is evident though. At my local track, the biggest events on race days are the 85cc kids class, because that's the only one everyone can afford. Once heir kiddo is ready to move on, they either lose interest because of getting smoked one they move up to the 250F's, or get hurt because the 250 two strokes are too powerful for most 15 year olds. Hell, I think even a KTM 150 is too much for kids transitioning from the 85's. The best solution, AKA never-gonna-happen solution, is a (125-150) class, Lite class (125-250) and Open class (any size single cylinder) 2 or 4 stroke.
FreshTopEnd
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8/31/2010 8:35pm
OW38B wrote:
FTE - Is that the "inmates running the asylum?" Bad rules are just that.............bad rules. Just takes someone with average intelligence to address and fix this...
FTE - Is that the "inmates running the asylum?"

Bad rules are just that.............bad rules. Just takes someone with average intelligence to address and fix this issue.

Back to insults. Maybe the intelligent people tried and judged that it was better to have the sport as it is (pro level is all that...
Back to insults. Maybe the intelligent people tried and judged that it was better to have the sport as it is (pro level is all that is implicated) than no sport at all.

Some other intelligent person is welcome to assume the financial risk of creating series where the rules they want can have effect and see if it works. If the OEM's money isn't needed, then it shouldn't be an issue to get that series off the ground and bury MXSports.
OW38B wrote:
That was not an insult. Just pointing out that a fix is very simple. But you are not trying to argue that if two strokes of...
That was not an insult. Just pointing out that a fix is very simple.

But you are not trying to argue that if two strokes of equal displacement were allowed to race it would end AMA Pro motocross as we know it, are you?
Stating that "intelligent" people would have arrived at a solution you want implies that the solution hasn't come to pass because the people in charge aren't intelligent. That's an insult.

If the OEM'S refuse to participate, then it would end AMA Pro Motocross as we know it.
MX7MX
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8/31/2010 8:42pm
OW38B wrote:
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from...
I hear ya, but my point is if it is more rider than bike then there should be no reason to ban 250cc 2 strokes from the 250cc class correct?
sesker15 wrote:
No You are 100% correct!! I feel the same as you do trust me.
OW38B wrote:
I disagree with DC and his data. I would like to see 2 strokes on an even playing field that's all. Then the AMA Pro's could...
I disagree with DC and his data. I would like to see 2 strokes on an even playing field that's all. Then the AMA Pro's could race one or not race one.

I think AMA Pro Racing is dropping the ball on this and missing a chance to have a 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke battle in their race program.

Sadly, it may never come to pass.
why would you want such differences in bike engines and how they make the power when you have EVERYONE on EQUAL equipment already? Also, where were you and the rest of the 2 stroke faithful at bitching when it was all 2 strokes?
OW38B
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8/31/2010 9:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/31/2010 9:36pm
Back to insults. Maybe the intelligent people tried and judged that it was better to have the sport as it is (pro level is all that...
Back to insults. Maybe the intelligent people tried and judged that it was better to have the sport as it is (pro level is all that is implicated) than no sport at all.

Some other intelligent person is welcome to assume the financial risk of creating series where the rules they want can have effect and see if it works. If the OEM's money isn't needed, then it shouldn't be an issue to get that series off the ground and bury MXSports.
OW38B wrote:
That was not an insult. Just pointing out that a fix is very simple. But you are not trying to argue that if two strokes of...
That was not an insult. Just pointing out that a fix is very simple.

But you are not trying to argue that if two strokes of equal displacement were allowed to race it would end AMA Pro motocross as we know it, are you?
Stating that "intelligent" people would have arrived at a solution you want implies that the solution hasn't come to pass because the people in charge aren't...
Stating that "intelligent" people would have arrived at a solution you want implies that the solution hasn't come to pass because the people in charge aren't intelligent. That's an insult.

If the OEM'S refuse to participate, then it would end AMA Pro Motocross as we know it.
You took 2 + 2 and got 10.



My statement is that the solution is simple and would not take an advanced degree in differential calculus to come up with the solution.



Everyone gets on here and say we need this displacement or that displacement to make everything equal. Or we need this sound level or that sound level to even things out. Or some witches brew combination. The bikes are already on the showroom floor for that.



It is simple, straight up displacement and let the chips fall were they may. The bikes are already on the showroom floor for that.



As far as the OEM's they are scaling back already, Yamaha does not have a team, Kawasaki and Suzuki are down to one top rider and some would argue Honda has not had a factory team since Carmichael left.



Do we have one factory team manager on record as saying "If we let two strokes in........we are quitting?"



For the record I do own and race a YZ250, but I have raced and rode four strokes and do not have a problem or a bias with them or against them, to be honest I like them just fine.
munsch121
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8/31/2010 10:25pm
signer # 2174
9/1/2010 3:47am
TerryB wrote:
Knuck is right, there was never a proposed ban on 2-strokes. only threat of stingent emissions standards that the "current" (key word) 2-strokes couldn't meet, but...
Knuck is right, there was never a proposed ban on 2-strokes. only threat of stingent emissions standards that the "current" (key word) 2-strokes couldn't meet, but can meet quite easily with direct injection.

Some of you guys drink Tiki's Koolaid.
ando wrote:
Ahh yes, the mythical direct-injection 2 stroke. Often mentioned, never seen. You're right, it wasn't an outright ban on two strokes, but an emission standard that...
Ahh yes, the mythical direct-injection 2 stroke. Often mentioned, never seen.

You're right, it wasn't an outright ban on two strokes, but an emission standard that a current two stroke could never meet. Semantics, maybe, but same result nonetheless.
1st see Bombardier snowmobile, pound for pound the most powerful snowmobile made, or Evinrude outboards, so it is possible.

2nd Motocross bikes are "CLOSED COURSE RACING MACHINES".... there will NEVER be emissions restrictions on them. So stop your bullshiting.....


Jees imaging going to inspection after a race and getting an emissions test... RIGHT
9/1/2010 3:56am
DC no offense to WMX, but get rid of WMX on Saturday as NOBODY cares about and replace it with a 150 development class, That would be HHUUUGGGEEEEE for the sport. Again no offense to the WMX crowd, but it's like watching the local C class, not that great. Tons of people would wanna watch some guys stringing out a 150Smile
9/1/2010 4:51am
DC no offense to WMX, but get rid of WMX on Saturday as NOBODY cares about and replace it with a 150 development class, That would...
DC no offense to WMX, but get rid of WMX on Saturday as NOBODY cares about and replace it with a 150 development class, That would be HHUUUGGGEEEEE for the sport. Again no offense to the WMX crowd, but it's like watching the local C class, not that great. Tons of people would wanna watch some guys stringing out a 150Smile
You have your "150 development class" this weekend.. hope you like Honda CRF150 four-stroke minis.
ando
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9/1/2010 6:16am
TerryB wrote:
Knuck is right, there was never a proposed ban on 2-strokes. only threat of stingent emissions standards that the "current" (key word) 2-strokes couldn't meet, but...
Knuck is right, there was never a proposed ban on 2-strokes. only threat of stingent emissions standards that the "current" (key word) 2-strokes couldn't meet, but can meet quite easily with direct injection.

Some of you guys drink Tiki's Koolaid.
ando wrote:
Ahh yes, the mythical direct-injection 2 stroke. Often mentioned, never seen. You're right, it wasn't an outright ban on two strokes, but an emission standard that...
Ahh yes, the mythical direct-injection 2 stroke. Often mentioned, never seen.

You're right, it wasn't an outright ban on two strokes, but an emission standard that a current two stroke could never meet. Semantics, maybe, but same result nonetheless.
1st see Bombardier snowmobile, pound for pound the most powerful snowmobile made, or Evinrude outboards, so it is possible. 2nd Motocross bikes are "CLOSED COURSE RACING...
1st see Bombardier snowmobile, pound for pound the most powerful snowmobile made, or Evinrude outboards, so it is possible.

2nd Motocross bikes are "CLOSED COURSE RACING MACHINES".... there will NEVER be emissions restrictions on them. So stop your bullshiting.....


Jees imaging going to inspection after a race and getting an emissions test... RIGHT
Direct injected, 2 stroke dirtbike - still a myth. Lots of things are possible, only a few are reality.

I think you might find that the EPA regulation says that those closed course machines that are exempt have to be actually used on a closed course. How many people buy MX bikes and use them offroad in the US? Technically all those bikes are being used illegally. Maybe a moot point because it's hard to police.

Are all snowmobiles and outboard engines governed by CARB regulations, regardless of use? (that's actually a legitimate question).

In any event, there doesn't have to be actual legislation that directly effects MX bikes. The threat (real or perceived) is often enough, or legislation that indirectly has the desired effect e.g. you can import the bikes but not sell them or vice versa.

Never say "Never", emission restrictions on closed course bikes were originally proposed by the EPA, but later retracted. If they were willing to table it once, they will most likely do it again.

Finally, emission testing every bike is ludicrous, the OEM would only have to show the results for that particular engine or model. It either passes or it doesn't, if it didn't pass you would never be able to buy the bike in the first place.
DC
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9/1/2010 6:30am
The 150 class at Steel City and Pala is a trial to see how four classes would work. I am hoping it opens the door for an 18-and-under development Schoolboy class that would be separated into regions. I mentioned that maybe two years ago. This year, it's a limited concept and its sponsored by Honda.

Thanks for all of the info and opinions here, makes me appreciate the fact that we are all so passionate about motocross, and I am lucky to have a role in the future of this series.

DC
MX Sports
9/1/2010 6:38am
DC and others..

It's not the idea of four-strokes that I disagree with.

As a rider, fan, and occasional racer it's the ridiculously high dB levels that come with 4-strokes that ruin it for me. As an owner, the lower cost in maintenance is a huge selling point of 2-strokes. It's a pain to mix gas of course, and if you forget the lube you toast your scooter's engine.. Nice to be able to put gas in and go.

Forcing kids to ride thumpers in your Schoolboy class seems to exasperate the noise issue by requiring moms & dads to buy and maintain (and hop-up with louder exhaust pipes) the more expensive four-strokes. Only one manufacturer even makes a 150 four stroke.

DC you're one of the better politicians around.. throwing the 150 class in the petition thread getting everyone excited thinking it was a 2-stroke class. Well played.
9/1/2010 6:42am Edited Date/Time 9/1/2010 6:44am
DC wrote:
The 150 class at Steel City and Pala is a trial to see how four classes would work. I am hoping it opens the door for...
The 150 class at Steel City and Pala is a trial to see how four classes would work. I am hoping it opens the door for an 18-and-under development Schoolboy class that would be separated into regions. I mentioned that maybe two years ago. This year, it's a limited concept and its sponsored by Honda.

Thanks for all of the info and opinions here, makes me appreciate the fact that we are all so passionate about motocross, and I am lucky to have a role in the future of this series.

DC
MX Sports
Wait a second is this a 150cc four stroke class, or 150cc 2 stroke class? If it's a four stroke class what is the highest cc 2 stroke you can run?

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