KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

GPrider
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1/4/2025 2:19pm

the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So you missed out if you didn't get a bike. Anything can happen but we're back at $12/$13k OTD as of 1/1/25. 

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cwel11
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1/4/2025 2:47pm
GPrider wrote:
the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So...

the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So you missed out if you didn't get a bike. Anything can happen but we're back at $12/$13k OTD as of 1/1/25. 

I’m not sure about that?  Unless dealers haven’t updated their websites there are still 24s and 23 bikes listed for what they were in December. Checked multiple dealers sites. 

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GPrider
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1/4/2025 3:01pm
GPrider wrote:
the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So...

the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So you missed out if you didn't get a bike. Anything can happen but we're back at $12/$13k OTD as of 1/1/25. 

cwel11 wrote:
I’m not sure about that?  Unless dealers haven’t updated their websites there are still 24s and 23 bikes listed for what they were in December. Checked...

I’m not sure about that?  Unless dealers haven’t updated their websites there are still 24s and 23 bikes listed for what they were in December. Checked multiple dealers sites. 

you can be sure, talked to Chip Munn, owner of Munn Motorsports. Rebates expired 12/31, you can google it. Dealers obviously haven't updated their websites. I tried to buy a 24 KTM 500 from three different dealers today, all said rebates are gone so back to MSPR on all 2023/2024 bikes

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1/4/2025 4:03pm

Dirt bikes part manufacture or assembly may not be safe is they need to reduce manufacturing costs.

MxAddic wrote:
As reckless as they where at spending on racing something tells me they didn’t leave near as much meat on the bone when it comes to...

As reckless as they where at spending on racing something tells me they didn’t leave near as much meat on the bone when it comes to production cost cutting.  I mean somebody had to be doing their jobs at some level.

"I mean somebody had to be doing their jobs at some level."

I never thought I would see you state that about Pierer Mobility!

There's always room for cost cutting, reduced overheads, cheaper labor (offshoring)...

The Shop

1/4/2025 4:22pm
GPrider wrote:
you can be sure, talked to Chip Munn, owner of Munn Motorsports. Rebates expired 12/31, you can google it. Dealers obviously haven't updated their websites. I...

you can be sure, talked to Chip Munn, owner of Munn Motorsports. Rebates expired 12/31, you can google it. Dealers obviously haven't updated their websites. I tried to buy a 24 KTM 500 from three different dealers today, all said rebates are gone so back to MSPR on all 2023/2024 bikes

Give it a month or two. 

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1/4/2025 4:38pm

Give it a couple days.  Yamaha had a bunch of rebates going on 2023/2024 models that seemed to expire on 12/31.  I checked a few days after the new year and it looked like they were gone, but now those rebates are back on the website.  Probably has something to do with the way they keep the websites updated, and maybe KTM is behind on this stuff.  Shit, they don't even have many of their models updated for 2025.... 690 models still show only up to 2024.

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1/6/2025 6:11am
Boomslang wrote:
South African rider Brad Binder’s MotoGP future with KTM looks uncertain with his team reportedly set to quit the sport after 2025 to prevent bankruptcy.The debt-ridden...

South African rider Brad Binder’s MotoGP future with KTM looks uncertain with his team reportedly set to quit the sport after 2025 to prevent bankruptcy.

The debt-ridden Austrian motorcycle brand entered self-administration on November 29 and Austrian media has reported that KTM may quit the top tier of motorcycle racing in 2026 as part of efforts to restructure its business.

The company’s sales have fallen 27% compared to the first half of 2023 and it has laid off nearly 600 workers this year. The self-administration allows for 90 days for KTM’s holding company Pierer Mobility — which also owns motorcycle brands Gas Gas, Husqvarna and MV Agusta — to secure financing to continue operations before the company falls into insolvency.

According to Crash.net, the first creditors’ hearing took place in December and a report issued by the Alpine Creditors Association (AKV) noted that reorganisation measures include the “planned” exit by KTM from MotoGP. KTM responded by saying it was committed to racing in MotoGP in 2025 but did not comment on its racing plans beyond that.

Austrian outlet Der Standard reported that KTM’s MotoGP exit will come in 2026, which is the final year of its deal with commercial rights holder Dorna Sports.

According to Crash.net, the report from the creditors’ hearing revealed that a number of parties have expressed interest in investing a combined €700m into the struggling company, including seven-time Formula One champion Lewis Hamilton. Hamilton, who is moving from Mercedes to Ferrari for the 2025 Formula One season, had earlier been linked with a buy-in of the Gresini MotoGP team.

Binder has a contract with KTM to the end of 2026 while new signings Pedro Acosta, Enea Bastianini and Maverick Vinales are all on multiyear deals. KTM also supplies 16 motorcycles to the entry-level Moto3 series.

Binder won the 2016 Moto3 title to become the third motorcycle grand prix world champion from South Africa, after Jon Ekerold and Kork Ballington. The Potchefstroom-born rider has been with the MotoGP factory team since 2020 after three seasons in the intermediate Moto2 category with KTM.

In his third MotoGP race he won the 2020 Czech Republic grand prix to bring the Austrian marque its first victory in the premier class, and the following year he won the team’s home race in Austria.

Binder has failed to win a race since then against the dominant Ducatis, but has scored nine podiums and finished as the highest-placed non-Ducati MotoGP rider in the last two seasons.

Sounds like he's more interested in securing the grid spots for a future project than he is in saving the team.

https://www.motogpnews.com/2025/01/04/why-lewis-hamilton-may-demand-that-ktm-leave-motogp-in-investment-talks/

KS703
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1/6/2025 7:22am
Give it a couple days.  Yamaha had a bunch of rebates going on 2023/2024 models that seemed to expire on 12/31.  I checked a few days...

Give it a couple days.  Yamaha had a bunch of rebates going on 2023/2024 models that seemed to expire on 12/31.  I checked a few days after the new year and it looked like they were gone, but now those rebates are back on the website.  Probably has something to do with the way they keep the websites updated, and maybe KTM is behind on this stuff.  Shit, they don't even have many of their models updated for 2025.... 690 models still show only up to 2024.

KTM hasn't released 2025 690 Enduro's yet, that's why they're not on the website.

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Spooner
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1/6/2025 7:40am

Really if they have to pay back a huge chunk of their debts in 2 years they need to make big time money. Because of that I don't see a ton of massive rebates other than bikes that just aren't moving.  Will be interesting to see how this goes the next 6 months.  Sounds like they are out of motogp in 26 as well and I bet we see a lot more racing cutbacks for the next two years.  But if they are essentially debt free after 2 years then that gives them massive advantages after that point. I guess I don't know if they can borrow more money to pay the current debtors or what?

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yz133rider
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1/6/2025 8:03am
GPrider wrote:
you can be sure, talked to Chip Munn, owner of Munn Motorsports. Rebates expired 12/31, you can google it. Dealers obviously haven't updated their websites. I...

you can be sure, talked to Chip Munn, owner of Munn Motorsports. Rebates expired 12/31, you can google it. Dealers obviously haven't updated their websites. I tried to buy a 24 KTM 500 from three different dealers today, all said rebates are gone so back to MSPR on all 2023/2024 bikes

Give it a month or two. 

Bingo the rebates will be back in feb and march and I bet they’ll be even stronger.


Nobody’s gonna be biting on the bikes at full rate when a month ago they were 2-4k off…

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Team403
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1/6/2025 8:40am Edited Date/Time 1/6/2025 8:51am

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

Racerman967
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1/6/2025 10:04am

This is the issue with going down this route. Doing large rebates of several thousand dollars makes it difficult to go back to standard pricing. Customers will simply wait and then your inventory goes up and you offer rebates again. Ask GM and many domestic car makers. And in this case where the company is struggling it is almost guaranteed. They would have been better off making the regular price halfway between the rebated price and their old MSRP. 

Few if any will but these again at 12k

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1/6/2025 11:38am
This is the issue with going down this route. Doing large rebates of several thousand dollars makes it difficult to go back to standard pricing. Customers...

This is the issue with going down this route. Doing large rebates of several thousand dollars makes it difficult to go back to standard pricing. Customers will simply wait and then your inventory goes up and you offer rebates again. Ask GM and many domestic car makers. And in this case where the company is struggling it is almost guaranteed. They would have been better off making the regular price halfway between the rebated price and their old MSRP. 

Few if any will but these again at 12k

I mean they need cash bad. What else are they going to do to get more cash? They need to move inventory somehow. 

Even if they break even. But the longer they wait to sell units (especially older ones like 2023) the bigger chance they have of taking a loss. 

People will pay $12k for a bike, just depends on the market/economy. 

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GPrider
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1/6/2025 12:36pm

ever think maybe it's in their or someone elses best interest not to have any sales right now? 

Moto520
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1/6/2025 12:51pm

I still think the 350's will sell out.  If they don't produce more bikes and there is a finite number of 350's available......i could see it being a real bitch to buy one of those down the road.  Are there even any 2024 350's available?

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wrc777
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Fantasy
1/6/2025 1:20pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

They are both considered high cost countries but so is the US. The Japanese may be using more Chinese parts. KTM probably used a lot of eastern EU countries for parts which were considered low cost countries but that has changed over time especially with the inflation caused by the Russian sanctions driving up energy and some raw material prices. Japan probably also benefits from low shipping costs to get raw materials from China.

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1/6/2025 2:52pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

Average wages are 30% lower in Japan than Austria, 80% lower in China.

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Team403
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1/6/2025 3:02pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

Average wages are 30% lower in Japan than Austria, 80% lower in China.

Thanks - so I would assume that the higher labor plus assumed higher quality of 3rd party parts = little chance of making a “more affordable “ bike.  

More affordable = more sales esp when consumer financing is unattractive.  

 

1/6/2025 3:06pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

Average wages are 30% lower in Japan than Austria, 80% lower in China.

Team403 wrote:
Thanks - so I would assume that the higher labor plus assumed higher quality of 3rd party parts = little chance of making a “more affordable...

Thanks - so I would assume that the higher labor plus assumed higher quality of 3rd party parts = little chance of making a “more affordable “ bike.  

More affordable = more sales esp when consumer financing is unattractive.  

 

Don't assume higher quality of 3rd party parts due to country on manufacture, good and bad parts can be manufactured in any country.

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Team403
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1/6/2025 4:12pm Edited Date/Time 1/6/2025 4:14pm

^^ yeah I’m thinking more on lines of Brembo etc.. could be the components aren’t of better quality than that of the Japanese. On the surface the whole package appears to be higher end than a Japanese bike.

1/6/2025 4:52pm
Team403 wrote:
^^ yeah I’m thinking more on lines of Brembo etc.. could be the components aren’t of better quality than that of the Japanese. On the surface...

^^ yeah I’m thinking more on lines of Brembo etc.. could be the components aren’t of better quality than that of the Japanese. On the surface the whole package appears to be higher end than a Japanese bike.

Yet KTM's have experienced quality issues...

s1200 image-999196703.jpg?VersionId=yvHfhFeqUUaWwFVjSYOCMvbn7image 804 0
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MxAddic
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1/6/2025 6:02pm
Yet KTM's have experienced quality issues...

Yet KTM's have experienced quality issues...

s1200 image-999196703.jpg?VersionId=yvHfhFeqUUaWwFVjSYOCMvbn7image 804 0

““Best in the Bizzness…”

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1/6/2025 6:54pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any more,

1
1/6/2025 7:10pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

scott_nz wrote:
i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any...

i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any more,

CFMOTO has an assembly line where they assemble different models at the same time...

image 917

Japanese car companies started doing this many years ago, flexible manufacturing did away with economies of scale, it's all about maximizing manufacturing resources.

1/6/2025 7:25pm
Team403 wrote:
Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?Just wondering if...

Anybody have a handle on the labor cost difference in manufacturing in Northern Europe V Japan?  I’m guessing it’s notably higher in the EU?

Just wondering if KTM could produce bikes at the same price point as the Japanese OEMs.

scott_nz wrote:
i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any...

i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any more,

CFMOTO has an assembly line where they assemble different models at the same time...Japanese car companies started doing this many years ago, flexible manufacturing did away...

CFMOTO has an assembly line where they assemble different models at the same time...

image 917

Japanese car companies started doing this many years ago, flexible manufacturing did away with economies of scale, it's all about maximizing manufacturing resources.

id say economies of scale come in more areas than just assembly, 

also CF moto seems to make more limited range than KTM all ready,  

1/6/2025 7:43pm
scott_nz wrote:
i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any...

i think its not so much labour cost,  but number of units produced in a run,  its why the japanese dont do large model ranges any more,

CFMOTO has an assembly line where they assemble different models at the same time...Japanese car companies started doing this many years ago, flexible manufacturing did away...

CFMOTO has an assembly line where they assemble different models at the same time...

image 917

Japanese car companies started doing this many years ago, flexible manufacturing did away with economies of scale, it's all about maximizing manufacturing resources.

scott_nz wrote:

id say economies of scale come in more areas than just assembly, 

also CF moto seems to make more limited range than KTM all ready,  

It's taken time for manufacturers to realize similar parts could be made on the same CNC machines with no setup cost between parts, something some manufacturers still haven;t cottoned on to.

CFMOTO makes 38 different model bikes, mostly road bikes, compared to KTM's 58 different model bikes, mostly off road, half the volume, but growing, something KTM is currently not doing.

Team403
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1/6/2025 7:53pm

58 😳

1/6/2025 8:29pm
GPrider wrote:
the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So...

the rebates on the 2023/20234 are gone, expired 12/31,  no more $7500 deals, assuming that was true. ALL KTM's are full MSRP as of now. So you missed out if you didn't get a bike. Anything can happen but we're back at $12/$13k OTD as of 1/1/25. 

There not going to sell many bikes.  Fri report American cc dept is now 1.1 trillion the highest ever.  Last 3 months it went up 23+ billion. Worst yet most people r defaulting on there cc,s.  Banks then crash. I talked to my boss lastnight about rates etc.  there is no freight , the west has the lowest volume and rates as low as .50 that’s to the co Not the driver. That’s all the western states.  Tx. Is dead  pay is above Cal. But not by much.  The southeast is dead this means there’s no loads , pay 1.30 cpm.   The northeast much higher but the 700-1000 a day tolls take that away. Most co.s r staying out .plus it tears equipment up & drivers burn out from fatigue . Wi. Is paying the highest short runs to the Midwest.  Other upper Midwest states r paying the 2nd highest.  This is because of the gnarly winter .   Tariffs will hurt big time, drop the volume. But the 3 billion Ktm debt or whatever it is .  Is small potatoes compared to 30-80’billion debt some trucking companies.s r in.  There might not be a co to deliver a bike left.  A lot of buyouts going on . When a trucking company buys another out . They take on there billions of debt.  Rates crashed in Feb 2021 so did contracts.  Now there debt is out of control . Some ceo ,s of trucking company.s hv a board of directors. They vote to give themselves 35 -150 mil bonuses plus a base of 17 mil . The rest of the board gets millions too . It’s all corruption , buddy deals , government kickbacks on 40 million visa workers since 08.  Bringing in millions of illegals & the handouts the gov gave them .  Blew everything up 

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cwel11
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1/7/2025 3:13am
Yet KTM's have experienced quality issues...

Yet KTM's have experienced quality issues...

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MxAddic wrote:

““Best in the Bizzness…”

Been reading your responses to this and other ktm threads for a few weeks now. Man just come out and say it already. You hate KTM and hope they fail. Show us on the doll where KTM touched you. 

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Beagle
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1/7/2025 3:13am Edited Date/Time 1/7/2025 3:16am

Next steps 2nd court hearing on January 24th then PMG Extraordinary General Assembly on January 27th.

EGA agenda is elections of supervisory board and issuing bonds enabling acquisition of new shares to increase capital. They are putting to vote the authorization to increase capital issuing shares for up to 900 million euros (50% of share capital). It could be Bajaj and/or other investors buying in to get PMG restructuring plan on the road, and then we shall see later what they intend to do with the racing program.

Sorry I'm really not fluent in finance speak so I'm paraphrasing here but you can find EGA invitation and related documents at https://www.pierermobility.com/en/investor-relations/general-meeting 

Could anyone with knowledge in this explain in layman's terms the bit about exclusion of shareholders' subscription rights? It's well detailed in the document entitled "Report of the Executive Board on item 2 of the agenda". Is this a way to minimize dilution of actual shareholders' rights for them to retain more control ?

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