KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

12/12/2024 11:22am
The dealer would lose it's sales department and important revenue. They would then have to deal with fixing broken shit, warranty work and pissed off customers.Finding...

The dealer would lose it's sales department and important revenue. They would then have to deal with fixing broken shit, warranty work and pissed off customers.Finding and employing good techs [good luck] and dealing with back ordered parts. "No thank you".

Team403 wrote:

Rev or profit?  A couple of guys I race with that are dealer guys say there is no money in sales?  

MPJC wrote:
There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up...

There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up, it isn't long until a bike is being sold at a loss. You've got to make money on parts, service, and accessories to be able to afford to sell bikes. 

Yes, you need all depts. to be making money. Parts, service, F&I, sales. I did it for years. Motorcycles are cool, most people are cool, our sport is cool. The power sports business is not very cool. I don't miss it much.

11
gharmon
Posts
2737
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Valley, AL US
12/12/2024 11:35am
gharmon wrote:
Man, I don't know about the cars you speak of but our town lost all its textile manufacturing jobs back in the mid 2000's. The whole...

Man, I don't know about the cars you speak of but our town lost all its textile manufacturing jobs back in the mid 2000's. The whole town worked in the Mills. Hell, the Mills built the mill villages around the mills for over 120 years they ruled the area. My entire family lost our jobs then (worked out great for me in the long run). But Kia built a huge plant about the time it all died. It was a savior for a lot of people.

But when I tell you of the people I personally know that worked there and the stories they tell of the shit they did to those cars on the line. They were acquaintances not friends! 

They got in such a need for help they were paying people by the day to come work. They of course used temp agencies but there were several meth heads, addicts, etc working there.  How can you have ANY quality control with people that have zero training and are purposely sabotaging vehicles and think it's funny.  

So, long story short, Americans can straight up be trashy workers.  It's gotten a little better since covid but I be damned if I'd take one of those fucking cars. I live amongst the labor pool! No thank you!

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good people that work there but there have been some bad ones. I'm glad Kia came though, it gave a lot of people here very good paying solid jobs!! But QC would be my main concern. I'm the guy that would end up with the shit vehicles with pennies rolling around in trans! 

Same thing in the RV industry. 95% of the "America made" junk is produced by day-laborers that are incentivized for speed over quality. Been discussed here...

Same thing in the RV industry. 95% of the "America made" junk is produced by day-laborers that are incentivized for speed over quality. Been discussed here on other threads before. In my industry (data centers) I have seen a massive drop-off in build quality and QC program effectiveness, especially since Covid. An exception continues to be Mitsubishi and Toshiba UPS systems - these are still rock-solid. 

The American workforce isn't what it used to be. People have no pride, no work ethic, and no loyalty. They want 8 hours' pay for 4 hours work. Now, get off my lawn!

Trust me I know about the RV's. My girlfriend and I are travel nurses and we spend large amounts of time in our RV! I had a 2010 toy hauler from racing and we bought a small RV (2006 class BT 26ft). Both these have been pretty solid. Take care of the roof and it takes care of you. 

But the shit I have seen in the RV parks since covid, fuck those are shit!!  I always tell those looking definitely nothing newer than early 2020. 

Lots of those places with dedicated, long term employees had to find new career choices and then they RV guys trying to keep up with the covid demand with such a shitty worker force. 

The bad thing is most of those people that bought those shitty RV's not only got junk they paid a premium and are so far upside down now they are stuck with them. Takes MONTHS to get warranty work done!! Kinda got off topic a little bit we still discussing buying American.  I love to as much as the next guy.  But I know if Kia had to pay people by the day so did Detroit and alike.  Hell we have Kia 2 miles from Al line, Toyota's close to Talladega and Mercedes in Tuscaloosa.  I been all over the country and I know that there are shitty workers everywhere. It ain't just a bad ga/Al problem. Buying good American stuff is as more of a problem than just getting American made stuff.

It embarrasses me as an American to sit here and describe how bad our people are.  I know there are lots of guys from other countries sitting around laughing when we talking about American Made with such pride then here we are cutting down the American work force ( not every American is this way btw).  But gotta call a spade a spade when ya see it!! 

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12/12/2024 3:40pm
GrapeApe wrote:

😂

Would it be too obvious if the warehouse had a disastrous fire?

 

JazzyJJ wrote:

The TSLA model? Just burn down your body shop over and over

Taotech wrote:
Speaking of Tesla. I read on the Internet that Elon is worth 400 billion! And I read on here I believe that he’s a great guy...

Speaking of Tesla. I read on the Internet that Elon is worth 400 billion! And I read on here I believe that he’s a great guy and has our interest in mind. I’m sure he could spare 3 billion for the dirty bikers.

Do you think he is worth $400 billion because he has your interest in mind?

Laughing 4.gif?VersionId=u7
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4
MxAddic
Posts
5308
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Location
NY US
12/12/2024 4:15pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2024 4:17pm
MPJC wrote:
There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up...

There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up, it isn't long until a bike is being sold at a loss. You've got to make money on parts, service, and accessories to be able to afford to sell bikes. 

My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it gives them something to service.

3

The Shop

12/12/2024 4:24pm
MPJC wrote:
There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up...

There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up, it isn't long until a bike is being sold at a loss. You've got to make money on parts, service, and accessories to be able to afford to sell bikes. 

MxAddic wrote:
My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it...

My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it gives them something to service.

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

1
MxAddic
Posts
5308
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Location
NY US
12/12/2024 4:29pm

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

1
1
cwel11
Posts
2598
Joined
12/4/2019
Location
Orangeville, PA US
12/12/2024 4:45pm
MPJC wrote:
There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up...

There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up, it isn't long until a bike is being sold at a loss. You've got to make money on parts, service, and accessories to be able to afford to sell bikes. 

MxAddic wrote:
My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it...

My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it gives them something to service.

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

Service manuals on EBay are well worth the $35. I don’t trust a dealer regardless of the color of the bike. Not saying all dealers suck. Just most of em do. They get enough of my money during the buying process  

IMG 7660.jpeg?VersionId=B95gkyiGt oml3KIMG 7661 0
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12/12/2024 4:53pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2024 4:53pm

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

They don’t come with a service manual. It is an optional order item. I have several Kawasaki factory manuals.

1
12/12/2024 5:08pm

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

Workshop manuals are available through your local dealer or online from the manufacturer, unless it's a KTM, only owners manuals are available to customers.

1
12/12/2024 5:25pm
gharmon wrote:
Man, I don't know about the cars you speak of but our town lost all its textile manufacturing jobs back in the mid 2000's. The whole...

Man, I don't know about the cars you speak of but our town lost all its textile manufacturing jobs back in the mid 2000's. The whole town worked in the Mills. Hell, the Mills built the mill villages around the mills for over 120 years they ruled the area. My entire family lost our jobs then (worked out great for me in the long run). But Kia built a huge plant about the time it all died. It was a savior for a lot of people.

But when I tell you of the people I personally know that worked there and the stories they tell of the shit they did to those cars on the line. They were acquaintances not friends! 

They got in such a need for help they were paying people by the day to come work. They of course used temp agencies but there were several meth heads, addicts, etc working there.  How can you have ANY quality control with people that have zero training and are purposely sabotaging vehicles and think it's funny.  

So, long story short, Americans can straight up be trashy workers.  It's gotten a little better since covid but I be damned if I'd take one of those fucking cars. I live amongst the labor pool! No thank you!

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good people that work there but there have been some bad ones. I'm glad Kia came though, it gave a lot of people here very good paying solid jobs!! But QC would be my main concern. I'm the guy that would end up with the shit vehicles with pennies rolling around in trans! 

Same thing in the RV industry. 95% of the "America made" junk is produced by day-laborers that are incentivized for speed over quality. Been discussed here...

Same thing in the RV industry. 95% of the "America made" junk is produced by day-laborers that are incentivized for speed over quality. Been discussed here on other threads before. In my industry (data centers) I have seen a massive drop-off in build quality and QC program effectiveness, especially since Covid. An exception continues to be Mitsubishi and Toshiba UPS systems - these are still rock-solid. 

The American workforce isn't what it used to be. People have no pride, no work ethic, and no loyalty. They want 8 hours' pay for 4 hours work. Now, get off my lawn!

Magoofan wrote:
"The American workforce isn't what it used to be. People have no pride, no work ethic, and no loyalty. They want 8 hours' pay for 4...

"The American workforce isn't what it used to be. People have no pride, no work ethic, and no loyalty. They want 8 hours' pay for 4 hours work. Now, get off my lawn!"

 

98c816add4602d1007b93148c43318ea-2417005125

Hmmm...Maybe this is regional? We have an incredible workforce.

Team403
Posts
602
Joined
12/21/2023
Location
Lago Vista, TX US
12/12/2024 6:32pm

For discussion - could the high cost of 4T repair finally have hit its inflection point.  It has been discussed that the cost of 4T owner ship could ultimately kill the market.  I propose that C19 brought in many first time buyers at low % financing that can simply drop 1-2K in motor repairs - these folks are dumping bikes  prematurely at .50/$1 in fear of the rebuild expense- used market is saturated with deals too attractive to pass up - thus killing new bike sales… plausible?🤔

1
4
NSP139
Posts
1204
Joined
5/6/2021
Location
Temecula, CA US
12/12/2024 6:44pm

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

Workshop manuals are available through your local dealer or online from the manufacturer, unless it's a KTM, only owners manuals are available to customers.

My dealership willing to print certain pages of the service manual for me but there is an option to buy it online just no printed version. Even my owner's manual was online not a big fan I'm old school like printed LOL

1
Taotech
Posts
263
Joined
2/23/2017
Location
Fuquay Varina, NC US
12/12/2024 7:06pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2024 7:09pm
JazzyJJ wrote:

The TSLA model? Just burn down your body shop over and over

Taotech wrote:
Speaking of Tesla. I read on the Internet that Elon is worth 400 billion! And I read on here I believe that he’s a great guy...

Speaking of Tesla. I read on the Internet that Elon is worth 400 billion! And I read on here I believe that he’s a great guy and has our interest in mind. I’m sure he could spare 3 billion for the dirty bikers.

Do you think he is worth $400 billion because he has your interest in mind?

Do you think he is worth $400 billion because he has your interest in mind?

Laughing 4.gif?VersionId=u7

I’m sure you realize every bit of my post was sarcasm.  Truth be told I think he’s a puppet.

1
2
JazzyJJ
Posts
1791
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Location
Nunya, WY US
12/12/2024 7:08pm
Team403 wrote:
For discussion - could the high cost of 4T repair finally have hit its inflection point.  It has been discussed that the cost of 4T owner...

For discussion - could the high cost of 4T repair finally have hit its inflection point.  It has been discussed that the cost of 4T owner ship could ultimately kill the market.  I propose that C19 brought in many first time buyers at low % financing that can simply drop 1-2K in motor repairs - these folks are dumping bikes  prematurely at .50/$1 in fear of the rebuild expense- used market is saturated with deals too attractive to pass up - thus killing new bike sales… plausible?🤔

Some of that for sure. I do still see people asking 8-9k for used kx450s while I can get a 24 from a dealer for under 7, so I still think there’s inventory that should hit the market.

1
12/12/2024 7:15pm
Taotech wrote:
Speaking of Tesla. I read on the Internet that Elon is worth 400 billion! And I read on here I believe that he’s a great guy...

Speaking of Tesla. I read on the Internet that Elon is worth 400 billion! And I read on here I believe that he’s a great guy and has our interest in mind. I’m sure he could spare 3 billion for the dirty bikers.

Do you think he is worth $400 billion because he has your interest in mind?

Do you think he is worth $400 billion because he has your interest in mind?

Laughing 4.gif?VersionId=u7
Taotech wrote:

I’m sure you realize every bit of my post was sarcasm.  Truth be told I think he’s a puppet.

Yes, I do!

He sees another opportunity for enrichment.

2
3
Taotech
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Fuquay Varina, NC US
12/12/2024 7:21pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2024 7:23pm

400 billion printed dollers and counting!!  Merica!!

5
8tensolutions
Posts
3332
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Location
Salt Lake City, UT US
12/12/2024 7:32pm Edited Date/Time 12/12/2024 9:39pm
MPJC wrote:
There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up...

There really is a surprisingly small amount of margin on a dirt bike. If a bike sits on the floor with dealer financing interest piling up, it isn't long until a bike is being sold at a loss. You've got to make money on parts, service, and accessories to be able to afford to sell bikes. 

MxAddic wrote:
My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it...

My dealer what I seeing is everything revolves around the profits from service. Mainly parts is a function of them and so is sales because it gives them something to service.

Yes, service and parts which is why I cannot understand how bad most dealers are with service process and stocking parts people actually buy.  It all comes down to quality of people.  They would be just fine without selling bikes if they got a margin share from the manufacturer and were "official" service centers" and delivery depots or something like that.  

1
Team403
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602
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Location
Lago Vista, TX US
12/12/2024 7:40pm

I still think you need a sales team to fit and sell a bike - said bike could be sourced from a regional OEM warehouse not the dealer.  Of couse this kinda kills spontaneous/ impulsive purchases.  
 

A local Specialized dealer here does this very thing. Has maybe 10 bikes on the floor.  Tell them what you are interested in and they will have model delivered to the store to do the touchy/feely thing.  If personal did not buy from them because of this model- I am an instant satisfaction kinda guy😎

1
early
Posts
9798
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Location
University Heights, OH US
12/12/2024 8:52pm

Hmmm...Maybe this is regional? We have an incredible workforce.

New manufacturing investment has been greater in southern states where land is cheaper, heating bills are lower and you don't have to deal with unions. These states also have, for the most part, lower test scores in school.

3
1
2sneaky
Posts
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Location
Tallahassee, FL US
12/12/2024 9:18pm

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

My 24 did 

1
12/12/2024 9:43pm

I worked at a kawasaki dealer for 10 years. The bikes came with  owners manuals. The service manuals cost about $40 bucks.

3
wrc777
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3151
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Location
Greenwood, IN US
Fantasy
12/13/2024 5:25am

KTM provide owner manuals, but unlike other manufacturers don't provide workshop manuals, encouraging customers to use their dealers for major repairs.

MxAddic wrote:

I have been buying new Kawasaki's since 1984 and none of them ever came with a service manual.

Workshop manuals are available through your local dealer or online from the manufacturer, unless it's a KTM, only owners manuals are available to customers.

Here you go. https://print.ktm.com/

They have pdf and printed repair manuals available for a cost. It may be cheaper to get the printed repair manual on ebay.

 

Here is an example from Kawi. https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/owner-center/service-manuals/2025/KX252FSFNN

They want $117 for the repair manual. 

2
Spoonguy
Posts
3425
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Location
Mc Kean, PA US
12/13/2024 5:36am

This^^^^^^^^! It is shit like this that makes me think no wonder KTM are having a hard time. Wouldn't you think a manufacturer would just include something like this in the purchase of the product? Seems like a cheap ass move.

1
1
MxAddic
Posts
5308
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Location
NY US
12/13/2024 5:56am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2024 5:58am
wrc777 wrote:
Here you go. https://print.ktm.com/They have pdf and printed repair manuals available for a cost. It may be cheaper to get the printed repair manual on...

Here you go. https://print.ktm.com/

They have pdf and printed repair manuals available for a cost. It may be cheaper to get the printed repair manual on ebay.

 

Here is an example from Kawi. https://www.kawasaki.com/en-us/owner-center/service-manuals/2025/KX252FSFNN

They want $117 for the repair manual. 

Tell that to the fellow that has been around for a hot 4 days claiming it was included with his bike.

lol.

AMetts
Posts
1163
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Location
Lincolnton, NC US
12/13/2024 6:00am
Spoonguy wrote:
This^^^^^^^^! It is shit like this that makes me think no wonder KTM are having a hard time. Wouldn't you think a manufacturer would just include...

This^^^^^^^^! It is shit like this that makes me think no wonder KTM are having a hard time. Wouldn't you think a manufacturer would just include something like this in the purchase of the product? Seems like a cheap ass move.

My 2021 350 repair manual cost me $20 and can literally rebuild the whole bike and engine with it and its actually very well laid out and easy to follow it is 500 pages. 

If you show me any manufacture that's handing a customer a 500 page repair manual with the bike id be surprised. 

9
indy rider
Posts
110
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8/3/2015
Location
Spencer, IN US
12/13/2024 6:49am

I haven't bought one since 2018, but all of my new Yamahas have come with a service manual.

5
12/13/2024 7:21am
Motofinne wrote:

One thing that i just don't get is why haven't they permanently lowered the MSRP prices of the bikes?

A permanent price reduction on current models would be tough for them to pull off at the moment, since this would require them to come up with the scratch to credit back dealers for their existing inventory.  If you’re talking about reducing the prices of future products, this won’t help them get out from under their existing inventory problem.  If the future model bikes were less expensive, why would anyone buy a non-current model?

1
Moto520
Posts
3624
Joined
2/4/2013
Location
Schaumburg, IL US
12/13/2024 7:34am

Service manual vs owner's manual.   All bikes come with an owner's manual (KTM is digital).  The owner's manual goes over the basics.  Yamaha used to come with a pretty decent and complete manual but they changed to be like everyone else.  The service manual is a separate charge nowadays. 

5
gharmon
Posts
2737
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Valley, AL US
12/13/2024 9:41am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2024 9:44am

Hmmm...Maybe this is regional? We have an incredible workforce.

early wrote:
New manufacturing investment has been greater in southern states where land is cheaper, heating bills are lower and you don't have to deal with unions. These...

New manufacturing investment has been greater in southern states where land is cheaper, heating bills are lower and you don't have to deal with unions. These states also have, for the most part, lower test scores in school.

As much as Id like to argue with some of that as this is home for me, There isn't a single lie you told there.  My area of the country tends to compete for the worst in schools and bad eating habits (fat). But land is cheap, taxes are cheap, we pay very little in heating and we typically do not like unions. A well informed man. 

We did once upon a time have more pride in our work ethic and craftsmanship. No longer true!!

12/13/2024 9:56am
Motofinne wrote:

One thing that i just don't get is why haven't they permanently lowered the MSRP prices of the bikes?

A permanent price reduction on current models would be tough for them to pull off at the moment, since this would require them to come up...

A permanent price reduction on current models would be tough for them to pull off at the moment, since this would require them to come up with the scratch to credit back dealers for their existing inventory.  If you’re talking about reducing the prices of future products, this won’t help them get out from under their existing inventory problem.  If the future model bikes were less expensive, why would anyone buy a non-current model?

Not permanent, but my dealer just sent me an email with a bunch of KTM/Husky/GG bikes about $3k discounted from msrp thru EOY, so clearly they are doing something to sell inventory and free up the related cash.

1

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