Stark Varg is just a Toy

early
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10/21/2024 5:01pm
early wrote:
If changing the gearing isn't causing you to run significantly higher rpms, then going down a tooth in the front should decrease load slightly. This might...

If changing the gearing isn't causing you to run significantly higher rpms, then going down a tooth in the front should decrease load slightly. This might help with heat but might not help with battery discharge rate. Keep us posted on the results. 

MxAddic wrote:

I may be wrong but the way electric motors build torque and respond to load I don't see small gearing changes being impactful.

That torque comes from current, more current =more heat from the batteries. It's the same reason they overheat in supermoto. More grip= more torque=more current. 

E-motos won't be ready for serious sand track duty for a long while. They are perfect for conditions I ride in, either soft and slick or hard and slick.

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10/21/2024 6:41pm Edited Date/Time 10/21/2024 6:45pm

It’s called duty cycle and this kinda thing should’ve been obvious (you saw it).


But these “oMg 800 eLeCtRiC hOrSePoW” guys don’t take into consideration the load and subsequent heat generation and current draw that will happen when you work something hard continuously.


ICE engines can stay working as long as they can manage temps and have fuel but electric will begin to heat soak and under extended high load conditions rapidly lose capacity.  Stark has no cooling system as I understand for the battery, which is what is going to heat up under the conditions.

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10/21/2024 6:48pm
It’s called duty cycle and this kinda thing should’ve been obvious (you saw it).But these “oMg 800 eLeCtRiC hOrSePoW” guys don’t take into consideration the load...

It’s called duty cycle and this kinda thing should’ve been obvious (you saw it).


But these “oMg 800 eLeCtRiC hOrSePoW” guys don’t take into consideration the load and subsequent heat generation and current draw that will happen when you work something hard continuously.


ICE engines can stay working as long as they can manage temps and have fuel but electric will begin to heat soak and under extended high load conditions rapidly lose capacity.  Stark has no cooling system as I understand for the battery, which is what is going to heat up under the conditions.

The Varg uses the same cooling system the highest selling ICE dirt bike uses today... 

stark-varg-updated-battery-pack-scaled-2913697068 02022-Yamaha-PW50-EU-Detail-008-03-1845115899.jpg?VersionId=Klq6Kq9tYMSsBjkwEe95SydIHk
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JM485
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Davis, CA US
10/21/2024 10:15pm

I would definitely give the 13T front sprocket a try, I just rode mine with a 14T for the first time on a track with some fluffy sand corners similar to what you're riding on and I couldn't believe how much worse the bike bogged down than it used to with the 13T.  I'm swapping back to my 13T, and I have a feeling it will probably make a pretty significant difference for the conditions you're riding in. 

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The Shop

djr
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GB
10/22/2024 5:46am

Well it is good that Stark were honest saying it's just the limitations of the bike, nothing faulty.

But what would concern me if I was the owner getting just 10 minutes before overheating, this bike is new , the battery is going to degrade , not get better, how long before 10 minutes becomes 8 minutes ?

Then 6 minutes

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Smith246
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10/22/2024 6:15am

So tried 13 tooth front sprocket today. 

Sadly no real noticeable difference either way. Ran 52hp and 40% regen like i have been last few rides. Run time was very similar and battery light still came on with about 30% battery left.  

Maybe the only 2 small differences I noticed was it used a tiny bit more battery riding too and from my track. And it might have not been as bigger drop in power when it did de-rate. Both of these were very small and really insignificant. 

Starting to get a bit over this bike, what point is an awesome bike if you can't even ride the thing. 

 

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yz133rider
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10/22/2024 6:31am

I’d be on 48hp and 0% regen if it were me based on what you’re saying about the changes.

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Smith246
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10/22/2024 6:57am
yz133rider wrote:

I’d be on 48hp and 0% regen if it were me based on what you’re saying about the changes.

I hear what your saying and I agree I would probably get the best run time with those settings. With my weight and the track surface, even at 52hp I'm riding it wide open alot of the time and only just making a few of my jumps. 

I will give those settings a try but it is still very disappointing not to be able to just ride it in whatever setting I want. The few rides I did with it around 60hp the bike felt absolutely awesome. 

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soggy
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10/22/2024 7:54am

Just had the thought have you checked to make sure your rear brake isn’t dragging?

Beagle
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10/22/2024 8:01am Edited Date/Time 10/22/2024 8:12am
Smith246 wrote:
So tried 13 tooth front sprocket today. Sadly no real noticeable difference either way. Ran 52hp and 40% regen like i have been last few rides. Run...

So tried 13 tooth front sprocket today. 

Sadly no real noticeable difference either way. Ran 52hp and 40% regen like i have been last few rides. Run time was very similar and battery light still came on with about 30% battery left.  

Maybe the only 2 small differences I noticed was it used a tiny bit more battery riding too and from my track. And it might have not been as bigger drop in power when it did de-rate. Both of these were very small and really insignificant. 

Starting to get a bit over this bike, what point is an awesome bike if you can't even ride the thing. 

 

You should try to ride it somewhere else, hardpack track, maybe woods or some other type of riding to see if you enjoy it.

You've already extended your ride time from 10 to 20 min adjusting hp and regen but if your use case is 90% of the time riding your deep sand track, I think unfortunately it's just not the right bike for you.

Let's turn it this way, she's not ready for you yet 😁

10/22/2024 9:15am
djr wrote:
Well it is good that Stark were honest saying it's just the limitations of the bike, nothing faulty.But what would concern me if I was the...

Well it is good that Stark were honest saying it's just the limitations of the bike, nothing faulty.

But what would concern me if I was the owner getting just 10 minutes before overheating, this bike is new , the battery is going to degrade , not get better, how long before 10 minutes becomes 8 minutes ?

Then 6 minutes

Sometimes he's still at over 50% of a charge still left at 10 minutes . Its being limited by heat sensors in the battery pack. They limit the power  before it gets hot enough to cause damage.  It is not overheating at that point. Its just approaching a temp that can cause damage if allowed to continue rising. 

 It would be worse if the battery was allowed to overheat  , that would damage the battery.  With time as the battery capacity decreases , which is 100's of full recharges than he will have less  battery capacity but I don't know if the ability to handle heat itself would get worse. The sensors will still allow it to run up to that max temp.  Who knows, in a year Stark could put out an update that could increase or decrease the temp that triggers the limited power.  They started out staying on the safer side of things. The updates that gave riders more range were just moving limits around  on the software side of stuff.    I don't remember the number of charges they rate it at, but at that point the capacity may drop to 80% . But that's multiple 100's of charge cycles .  

 

The battery has a 2 year warranty , I'm not sure of the exact wording of that but I think if the capacity drops below a certain % they will replace the battery. I looked quickly and did not find a clear written version of it.  It has been posted on Vital in a Varg thread a few times though. A new battery is $3k right now in the US if You happen to need one and its not covered by Stark.  Its going to cost that or more to run an ICE engine the number of hours You will get riding  to keep it at 100% .        

10/22/2024 9:31am
soggy wrote:

Just had the thought have you checked to make sure your rear brake isn’t dragging?

When A local pro buddy of mine went from riding Suzuki's to KTMS's he was overheating rear brakes all the time . He was used to having the little bit of play the Suzuki had in the pedal. And was dragging it  . At first they thought it was just the brakes were not as good.

His dad ended up modifying the brake pedal to have the same clevis and play that he had on his RM's. He was on an RM from the time he was first on an 85, up until he started to race the 40+ class.   Only off Suzuki's for  a year to try Yamahas  , 2 years on  KTM's ( early 2000's when he got free KTM's and that was when his dad built the rear brake pedal to be like an RM)  . But in 2019 or 2020 he went fulltime on KTM's  and runs a stock pedal on them. He's still pretty fast . 

 

 Maybe taking a IR temp gun and measuring the temps of the brakes and  anything that could cause drag might be worth trying.  Something like that might just look like the load that a deep sand would put on  it when looking at just the data like Stark would have.     

Smith246
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10/22/2024 4:58pm
soggy wrote:

Just had the thought have you checked to make sure your rear brake isn’t dragging?

Yeah have checked that, there is nothing physically dragging that i can see. When I swapped front sprocket the counter shaft is alot harder to turn than a normal bike but this could be completely normal, I mean it felt smooth just harder. The o-ring chain is very very stiff, might be worth swapping to a standard chain maybe 🤷‍♂️

Smith246
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10/22/2024 5:03pm
Smith246 wrote:
So tried 13 tooth front sprocket today. Sadly no real noticeable difference either way. Ran 52hp and 40% regen like i have been last few rides. Run...

So tried 13 tooth front sprocket today. 

Sadly no real noticeable difference either way. Ran 52hp and 40% regen like i have been last few rides. Run time was very similar and battery light still came on with about 30% battery left.  

Maybe the only 2 small differences I noticed was it used a tiny bit more battery riding too and from my track. And it might have not been as bigger drop in power when it did de-rate. Both of these were very small and really insignificant. 

Starting to get a bit over this bike, what point is an awesome bike if you can't even ride the thing. 

 

Beagle wrote:
You should try to ride it somewhere else, hardpack track, maybe woods or some other type of riding to see if you enjoy it.You've already extended...

You should try to ride it somewhere else, hardpack track, maybe woods or some other type of riding to see if you enjoy it.

You've already extended your ride time from 10 to 20 min adjusting hp and regen but if your use case is 90% of the time riding your deep sand track, I think unfortunately it's just not the right bike for you.

Let's turn it this way, she's not ready for you yet 😁

Yeah I think best bet is to just park it till next mx season and try it at a few of the tracks I travel too, they are a bit firmer.

I will keep working on Stark but if the bike is fine then it's just not the right bike for me.

I believe it will be an amazing bike for alot of people but it has a way to go before being considered a serious motocross bike.  

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MxAddic
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10/22/2024 5:14pm
ouch 1
5
10/23/2024 12:31pm
soggy wrote:

Just had the thought have you checked to make sure your rear brake isn’t dragging?

Smith246 wrote:
Yeah have checked that, there is nothing physically dragging that i can see. When I swapped front sprocket the counter shaft is alot harder to turn...

Yeah have checked that, there is nothing physically dragging that i can see. When I swapped front sprocket the counter shaft is alot harder to turn than a normal bike but this could be completely normal, I mean it felt smooth just harder. The o-ring chain is very very stiff, might be worth swapping to a standard chain maybe 🤷‍♂️

I would think that a regular chain could help some. I'm surprised they come with an O ring chain.   They take away enough power that people on 125's never use them.  At one point they used to make us push our bikes to the gate. And I tried an O ring chain and it was  noticeable more difficult  to move the bike. That was a longtime ago though, and I have stayed away from them since.  

 Small things like that might be just enough to help extend the range. Have you tried shooting the chain, brakes, etc with an IR temp gun and seeing if anything is making heat? 

My friend that was dragging the brake by mistake was a fast local pro at the time and it took him a while to figure out he was dragging it. He scored his first point at Southwick a couple years after the KTM brake issue. And was top 3-5 local Pro at the time when  there were multiple 2 digit guys racing in NESC every weekend. And he and his Dad thought the rear  brakes were just really bad for a while. His Dad was a good mechanic, did all of the work on the bikes. 

 

Its a bummer that its not working.  Maybe its a sign that You should build a second track that is less sandy?  How cool would that be? To have a second track , if You have the room for it. Hopefully somebody figures out something to help with the cooling issue, if there is not any issue with Your bike.  Seems like the bikes would benefit from it for Supermoto too.    

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RACING
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10/23/2024 12:50pm

How could the "better than anything else most powerful MX bike ever in the whole galaxy" not be able to handle an O ring chain?

😏

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husqvarnaUSA
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BEAVER DAMS, NY US
10/23/2024 12:50pm

Should've gotten a RM-Z. No battery required.. like a real motocross bike.

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2
10/23/2024 4:13pm
RACING wrote:

How could the "better than anything else most powerful MX bike ever in the whole galaxy" not be able to handle an O ring chain?

😏

 I'm just as disappointed as You are.  Who would have thought that something might not be perfect?  I  

 

      For most people it may not matter. But the little bit of reduced friction could help this guy out since he has found one of the areas the Varg is not great. Getting the battery to drop its temp even slightly might be enough to be able to drain the battery  without having the power limited. Sounds like something worth trying.  If it makes enough of a difference for Factory teams to run regular chains instead of O ring chains, why not try it? 

 

OwenJakes
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sebree, KY US
10/24/2024 7:39am

I second the RMZ comment. With the money from the stark, you can actually get two RM-Z's.

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rob2489
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AU
12/6/2024 2:34pm Edited Date/Time 12/6/2024 2:34pm

How have you been going with the Stark any better results?

Im considering getting one.

I ride at Park4 in Melb which has a hard pack base with a few sand section but nothing like WA deep sand.

Might keep my AKit equipped CRF450 incase I dont get along with it.

BP672
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12/8/2024 3:59am

Right so I’m new on here 52 year old slow vet , I ride with smith246 a fair bit . Yesterday he bought the stark over to my track , about 3 km very fast super deep sand as well . The stark as a bike was super impressive, I was instantly faster than on my 2021 fc350 with mx12 on the back and dal soggio’s inserts . I was getting a battery use of roughly 10% a lap .  Hopefully the stark tech for battery and recharge will improve, if it can improve by 50% to get to 10-12 laps on my track I’d get one tomorrow 

2
12/8/2024 4:15am
BP672 wrote:
Right so I’m new on here 52 year old slow vet , I ride with smith246 a fair bit . Yesterday he bought the stark over...

Right so I’m new on here 52 year old slow vet , I ride with smith246 a fair bit . Yesterday he bought the stark over to my track , about 3 km very fast super deep sand as well . The stark as a bike was super impressive, I was instantly faster than on my 2021 fc350 with mx12 on the back and dal soggio’s inserts . I was getting a battery use of roughly 10% a lap .  Hopefully the stark tech for battery and recharge will improve, if it can improve by 50% to get to 10-12 laps on my track I’d get one tomorrow 

You may have to wait for solid state batteries to get that range.

Smith246
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12/8/2024 4:35am
rob2489 wrote:
How have you been going with the Stark any better results?Im considering getting one.I ride at Park4 in Melb which has a hard pack base with...

How have you been going with the Stark any better results?

Im considering getting one.

I ride at Park4 in Melb which has a hard pack base with a few sand section but nothing like WA deep sand.

Might keep my AKit equipped CRF450 incase I dont get along with it.

Haven't had the chance to do alot more testing, it's been harvest so been a little busy for riding ha ha.

Tried an mx14 rear on my track and it was possibly a little bit better as far as battery goes. Its hard to tell but, if we are talking 5-10% differences that is only 1-2 minutes ride time difference which could come down to so many other variables.

I rode it yesterday at BP672's track which is even harder on the battery than my track. Again the stark was absolutely amazing to ride but I could get it from 100% to 20% in 15 mins and the battery warning light was coming on with 40% battery still left.

Even with all that the stark is still one of the best bikes I have ever ridden. From what I've seen of YouTube videos of that track I think the stark would be absolutely awesome there and the battery would not be a problem. I would still suggest keeping your crf for now, nothing like having choices.

On another negative note, stark have reduced the max charge rate from 3.3kw down to 2.7kw which is a big bummer for me. I'm really hoping this is something that can be fixed very soon.

 

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2sneaky
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12/8/2024 5:06am
Smith246 wrote:
Sorry for the long post and I'm probably gonna get some hate for this but I'm just sharing my experience incase it could possibly help someone...

Sorry for the long post and I'm probably gonna get some hate for this but I'm just sharing my experience incase it could possibly help someone else.

I'll start by saying I'm not a lover or a hater of electric, I like everything motocross related and just like trying new things. I've always been curious to try the stark and the recent sale has been enough for me to take the plunge. 

I was very hesitant because I mainly ride deep sand, and the sand is where I feel the stark will suffer the most as far as battery life goes. Anyway I purchased a stark last wknd and took it to my personal sand track for its first try. My track is a very deep fast sand track. 

Well one word to describe my first ride was disappointing. Although the bike was a blast to ride it had a battery warning light come up and was dropping the power after only 10 mins. Another 10 mins of riding slow and dicking around and the battery was empty. I thought maybe the first cycle on the battery is the not the best so I tried again the next day with very similar results. 

I sent an email to stark with my concerns hoping they could log into my bike and see if it is faulty or something. They got back to me and said my bike is fine. So after doing some more research and finding a few others with similar issues it seems that the stark can just not handle deep sand and higher HP settings. 

From all other reports if you are riding hardpack or lower hp settings the bike is probably fine. But to me this bike can not be considered as a serious motocross bike if it can't be ridden by a B grade Vet motocross rider in 60hp on a sand track, it is just a toy. 

Your dad thought your mom was a toy and little smithy was born , just like I’ll pass you like your sitting still on the stark …don’t toy with me smithy

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2sneaky
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12/8/2024 5:27am
Smith246 wrote:
I did alot of research before my purchase and was under no illusion that deep sand wasnt going to be the best place for it. But...

I did alot of research before my purchase and was under no illusion that deep sand wasnt going to be the best place for it. But alot of comments were as 8500rpm said above that they were getting 35-45 mins out of the battery and no comments of overheating. I was more than happy with this.

But to only get 20 mins total and power reduction after only 10 mins is definitely on the disappointing side. I am happy to say that the 10 mins of riding I get are absolutely awesome and this bike has blown me away in the actual riding side of things.

I stick by my word saying it is a toy. Stark advertise this bike as a serious motocross bike that can compete with modern 450cc motocross bikes. If you bought any new 450 motocross bike and you had to stop riding after 10 mins, regardles of terrain you would not be calling that a serious motocross bike. Yes I know I am in the minority but the main point of my post was to possibly help someone in the same situation as me.

Beagle wrote:
Could you confirm if you're on the latest firmware and software version?I think Varg should be (at least ) on V 1.0.159 and Varg App on...

Could you confirm if you're on the latest firmware and software version?

I think Varg should be (at least ) on V 1.0.159 and Varg App on V 1.0.183 (407).

Smith246 wrote:
Yeah just checked and it has the latest updates on the bike and in the app.From your previous post I would have loved to test rode...

Yeah just checked and it has the latest updates on the bike and in the app.

From your previous post I would have loved to test rode one first but I live very remote and there is no one with Starks where I live. I have also done a few rides now with the same result. If I keep power to a max of 50hp i can get it down close to 30% before it drops power. But at 60hp which I prefer it will derate well before 50% 

If it derates before 50 all jokes aside theirs something wrong 100%, mine doesn't derate till like 30 around there maybe 35%

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Smith246
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12/8/2024 5:57am
2sneaky wrote:

If it derates before 50 all jokes aside theirs something wrong 100%, mine doesn't derate till like 30 around there maybe 35%

Derating at 50% was something i was getting with high hp settings and high regen settings. With lower regen (20%) it is alot more common for it derate around the 30%. Although yesterday on 58hp and 20% regen it derated at around 40%. 

On another note, your first post has me thinking you are one of my mates trolling me 🤔

Beagle
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Toulouse FR
12/8/2024 6:39am Edited Date/Time 12/8/2024 6:53am
rob2489 wrote:
How have you been going with the Stark any better results?Im considering getting one.I ride at Park4 in Melb which has a hard pack base with...

How have you been going with the Stark any better results?

Im considering getting one.

I ride at Park4 in Melb which has a hard pack base with a few sand section but nothing like WA deep sand.

Might keep my AKit equipped CRF450 incase I dont get along with it.

I'm halfway around the globe from you so I don't know the tracks but I saw that City MX has Starks for hire so that would give you an idea of how it rides and the kind of range you could get, on this track at least.

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BP672
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12/8/2024 6:00pm

You may have to wait for solid state batteries to get that range.

I hope they hurry up , like most older vets still riding mx I’m one good crash off retirement 

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1
12/11/2024 1:20am
2sneaky wrote:

If it derates before 50 all jokes aside theirs something wrong 100%, mine doesn't derate till like 30 around there maybe 35%

Smith246 wrote:
Derating at 50% was something i was getting with high hp settings and high regen settings. With lower regen (20%) it is alot more common for...

Derating at 50% was something i was getting with high hp settings and high regen settings. With lower regen (20%) it is alot more common for it derate around the 30%. Although yesterday on 58hp and 20% regen it derated at around 40%. 

On another note, your first post has me thinking you are one of my mates trolling me 🤔

Stark wouldn't have access to the sand you ride on, it might be worth asking Stark if you can test a battery pack with larger capacity and larger cooling fins.

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