AMA Penalty PALA 250 Class - Let's hear it, Why 16 and NOT 38?

Tumic
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5/26/2024 1:01pm
DonM wrote:
Where Chase went off the track he had no choice but to do what he did because it was off the side of a hill...comparing MotoGP...

Where Chase went off the track he had no choice but to do what he did because it was off the side of a hill...comparing MotoGP to MX ridiculous as there aren't any obstacles in MX every instance is different its not as black and white as you want it to be. 

It’s easy enough to understand that if you make a misstake it should cost you. 
 

The rule should not be ”not to gain a advantage” but as i stated, if you go off track you should loose time on the riders in front of you and the riders behind should close in on you.

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slumpstone
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5/26/2024 1:09pm
soggy wrote:

Vialle accelerated, Deegan didn’t. 

Then how did me manage to clear that jump? And I guess all the roost coming off of his tire was an optical illusion 🤦🤦

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Press516
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5/26/2024 1:34pm

Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a time advantage while he was off the track???  Nothing to do with roost….


Why did it take time to find out if Deegan got a penalty?  They had to determine if he gained time while off the track…

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DonM
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5/26/2024 1:53pm
DonM wrote:
Where Chase went off the track he had no choice but to do what he did because it was off the side of a hill...comparing MotoGP...

Where Chase went off the track he had no choice but to do what he did because it was off the side of a hill...comparing MotoGP to MX ridiculous as there aren't any obstacles in MX every instance is different its not as black and white as you want it to be. 

Tumic wrote:
It’s easy enough to understand that if you make a misstake it should cost you.    The rule should not be ”not to gain a advantage”...

It’s easy enough to understand that if you make a misstake it should cost you. 
 

The rule should not be ”not to gain a advantage” but as i stated, if you go off track you should loose time on the riders in front of you and the riders behind should close in on you.

What the rules should be and what they are are two different things....too many people commenting are doing so with their emotions  based on how they feel about certain riders and do not have a full understanding of the rule and how it is implemented. I personally don't think any of the instances warranted a penalty but because Vialle was penalized it brought the rule under an emotional microscope for a lot of people....

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The Shop

Farmer J
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5/26/2024 2:02pm
DonM wrote:

Don't let your favoritism blind you…

L O L 

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tek14
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5/26/2024 2:32pm

Local kid from merica.. whos gonna give him penalty? 

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5/26/2024 2:58pm
This is the rule from the 2024 AMA rulebook: 1.6.20 TRACK CUTS/UNFAIR ADVANTAGE a. Riders must remain on the marked course. The course will be marked...

This is the rule from the 2024 AMA rulebook:

1.6.20 TRACK CUTS/UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
a. Riders must remain on the marked course. The course will be marked by track markers, boundary markers,
hay bales, tuff blocks, dirt mounds, etc. If the marking devices are knocked down, the rider must stay on the
original marked course.
b. A Rider leaving the course may only continue by properly re-entering the course, without gaining a time or
position advantage, from the closest possible point to where that Rider left the course. While off course, the
Rider must immediately slow down to a safe speed so as not to endanger life or limb of other riders, crew
members, officials or the public and must not accelerate in an unsafe manner at any time.
c. The Race Director will make the determination as to whether a Rider gained any advantage by leaving the
racecourse and re-entering. The Rider may be determined to have gained an advantage without gaining a
position, failed to slow down after leaving the course or accelerated in an unsafe manner.

 

Based on this, it sure sounds like race direction only considered ONE aspect (gaining an advantage), but it clearly stats in 1.6.20b and c that you must "immediately slow down", "must not accelerate in an unsafe manner" and that "failing to slow down" is an infraction. Deegan should've been docked twice.

Well, like I said...  You can't enter the track up an embankment if you don't accelerate.  Additional, as mentioned you need the whole video.  You can easily slow down, look to see if it is safe to enter the track and then accelerate onto the track.  Which is what I am guessing the AMA decided is what happened. At this point it seems moot.  AMA reviewed it, they were satisfied that Deegan slowed down enough and found him not to be in violation.

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-MAVERICK-
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5/26/2024 3:45pm

One is French, one is American...

DonM wrote:

Don't let your favoritism blind you…

Tell that to Mike Pelletier. 

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5/26/2024 4:03pm

One is French, one is American...

DonM wrote:

Don't let your favoritism blind you…

Oh the irony 

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5/26/2024 4:20pm

The rule needs to be rewritten because now its hazy enough that a lizard face lawyer could successfully argue both sides.

That’s how all the rules work. The lizard face lawyers write them.

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5/26/2024 4:22pm

Oh the irony 

Difference is, you’re pulling the equivalent to the race card. When it’s probably something less nefarious and more gay like they love Deegan for a stupid story line that sells. I’ve seen plenty of Americans fined or given penalties.

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crc245
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5/26/2024 4:25pm
Kevin852 wrote:
Either they both should have been penalized or neither. Based on the rules they both should have (per the " must deaccelerate after going off track"...

Either they both should have been penalized or neither. Based on the rules they both should have (per the " must deaccelerate after going off track" mentioned above). As both ot them were on the gas. 

How about this for an easy fix. You must come to a complete stop before you reenter the track. If you fail to do so it is a loss of one position (or something like that. Position? 10 seconds?)

 

I like this concept: Go off the track, at all, for any reason, and it’s a uniform penalty. 3 seconds, 5 seconds, 10, just make it the same for everyone.

In reference to Deegan specifically: 3 off track excursions in two motos is inexcusable. Period. Whether you’re pushing too hard, get out of shape, get pushed wide by another rider, a line goes away, whatever, the question should not be whether or not you GAINED time. Plain and simple, as a racer you made a MISTAKE, there should be a consequence. This time it’s even worse with Vialle as a Moto1 case study. Both deserved penalties, only one got one.

Can’t find/haven’t seen the official AMA penalty report (strange one can find them for SX relatively easily by comparison), but not even a track infringement mention, fine, or any reprimand whatsoever for Deegan speaks for itself…

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Shakybonez15
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5/26/2024 4:45pm

The Deeg's slowed down enough. that's it. that simple

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Shred
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5/26/2024 4:48pm Edited Date/Time 5/26/2024 4:59pm
Press516 wrote:
Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a...

Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a time advantage while he was off the track???  Nothing to do with roost….


Why did it take time to find out if Deegan got a penalty?  They had to determine if he gained time while off the track…

Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot more for everything.  Mike saying it like he did is a way of saying….we have this complicated formula that you, the fan, can’t possibly understand …so trust us.  Fuck that.  The eye test tells you that he’s full of shit.  Watch the spacing Tom had on Deegan when Tom goes off.  It looks like he lost a little spacing/ time, but he sure as hell didn’t gain anything remotely noticeable.  Watch it.  If he has a micrometer out to try to find one frame that he thinks Tom gained an inch….well…he’s a tool.  He said Tom maintained “race pace”, which he pretty much did…..and so did Deegan in Moto 2.    Deegan, in Moto 2 was totally on the gas…enough to clear one of the bigger jumps on the track right where he re-entered.  Of course Deegan said in the post race press conference he would have won anyway…so I guess you don’t have to follow the rules at that point.  If you are arguing one rider should be penalized and the other shouldn’t…well…you are a fanboy….and that includes Mike.

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Press516
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5/26/2024 5:12pm
Press516 wrote:
Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a...

Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a time advantage while he was off the track???  Nothing to do with roost….


Why did it take time to find out if Deegan got a penalty?  They had to determine if he gained time while off the track…

Shred wrote:
Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot...

Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot more for everything.  Mike saying it like he did is a way of saying….we have this complicated formula that you, the fan, can’t possibly understand …so trust us.  Fuck that.  The eye test tells you that he’s full of shit.  Watch the spacing Tom had on Deegan when Tom goes off.  It looks like he lost a little spacing/ time, but he sure as hell didn’t gain anything remotely noticeable.  Watch it.  If he has a micrometer out to try to find one frame that he thinks Tom gained an inch….well…he’s a tool.  He said Tom maintained “race pace”, which he pretty much did…..and so did Deegan in Moto 2.    Deegan, in Moto 2 was totally on the gas…enough to clear one of the bigger jumps on the track right where he re-entered.  Of course Deegan said in the post race press conference he would have won anyway…so I guess you don’t have to follow the rules at that point.  If you are arguing one rider should be penalized and the other shouldn’t…well…you are a fanboy….and that includes Mike.

Well that was a mega fanboi post you just made for sure.  I didn't make any assessment of who should or shouldn't be penalized.  I just highlighted where the AMA said the penalty came from. 

In one of the other threads I said the AMA needs to be forthcoming with the data they used so it could be independently verified.

Outside of that, we have the explanation from the AMA, which you are welcome to dispute, but it means nothing unless you can provide your own data that proves them wrong.

Step up to the plate...

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Shred
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5/26/2024 5:48pm
Press516 wrote:
Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a...

Did any of you actually watch the broadcast when Mike from the AMA came on and said that Vialle got the penalty because he gained a time advantage while he was off the track???  Nothing to do with roost….


Why did it take time to find out if Deegan got a penalty?  They had to determine if he gained time while off the track…

Shred wrote:
Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot...

Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot more for everything.  Mike saying it like he did is a way of saying….we have this complicated formula that you, the fan, can’t possibly understand …so trust us.  Fuck that.  The eye test tells you that he’s full of shit.  Watch the spacing Tom had on Deegan when Tom goes off.  It looks like he lost a little spacing/ time, but he sure as hell didn’t gain anything remotely noticeable.  Watch it.  If he has a micrometer out to try to find one frame that he thinks Tom gained an inch….well…he’s a tool.  He said Tom maintained “race pace”, which he pretty much did…..and so did Deegan in Moto 2.    Deegan, in Moto 2 was totally on the gas…enough to clear one of the bigger jumps on the track right where he re-entered.  Of course Deegan said in the post race press conference he would have won anyway…so I guess you don’t have to follow the rules at that point.  If you are arguing one rider should be penalized and the other shouldn’t…well…you are a fanboy….and that includes Mike.

Press516 wrote:
Well that was a mega fanboi post you just made for sure.  I didn't make any assessment of who should or shouldn't be penalized.  I just...

Well that was a mega fanboi post you just made for sure.  I didn't make any assessment of who should or shouldn't be penalized.  I just highlighted where the AMA said the penalty came from. 

In one of the other threads I said the AMA needs to be forthcoming with the data they used so it could be independently verified.

Outside of that, we have the explanation from the AMA, which you are welcome to dispute, but it means nothing unless you can provide your own data that proves them wrong.

Step up to the plate...

Step up to the plate….in a heartbeat.  I’ll take Mike’s job and tell the riders the 40th guy on the gate will be treated exactly like the #1 guy.  Then give clear indications what to expect on the rules.  This one would be if you are on the gas to the point of roosting then you are clearly still in racing mode while off track…so expect a penalty.  It’s easy to see, to point out, and easy to equally treat all riders.  

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Press516
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5/26/2024 7:57pm Edited Date/Time 5/26/2024 8:05pm
Shred wrote:
Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot...

Yea…I heard that pile of words and laughed….it’s like listening to Biden tell me how the economy is great and I’m not really paying a lot more for everything.  Mike saying it like he did is a way of saying….we have this complicated formula that you, the fan, can’t possibly understand …so trust us.  Fuck that.  The eye test tells you that he’s full of shit.  Watch the spacing Tom had on Deegan when Tom goes off.  It looks like he lost a little spacing/ time, but he sure as hell didn’t gain anything remotely noticeable.  Watch it.  If he has a micrometer out to try to find one frame that he thinks Tom gained an inch….well…he’s a tool.  He said Tom maintained “race pace”, which he pretty much did…..and so did Deegan in Moto 2.    Deegan, in Moto 2 was totally on the gas…enough to clear one of the bigger jumps on the track right where he re-entered.  Of course Deegan said in the post race press conference he would have won anyway…so I guess you don’t have to follow the rules at that point.  If you are arguing one rider should be penalized and the other shouldn’t…well…you are a fanboy….and that includes Mike.

Press516 wrote:
Well that was a mega fanboi post you just made for sure.  I didn't make any assessment of who should or shouldn't be penalized.  I just...

Well that was a mega fanboi post you just made for sure.  I didn't make any assessment of who should or shouldn't be penalized.  I just highlighted where the AMA said the penalty came from. 

In one of the other threads I said the AMA needs to be forthcoming with the data they used so it could be independently verified.

Outside of that, we have the explanation from the AMA, which you are welcome to dispute, but it means nothing unless you can provide your own data that proves them wrong.

Step up to the plate...

Shred wrote:
Step up to the plate….in a heartbeat.  I’ll take Mike’s job and tell the riders the 40th guy on the gate will be treated exactly like...

Step up to the plate….in a heartbeat.  I’ll take Mike’s job and tell the riders the 40th guy on the gate will be treated exactly like the #1 guy.  Then give clear indications what to expect on the rules.  This one would be if you are on the gas to the point of roosting then you are clearly still in racing mode while off track…so expect a penalty.  It’s easy to see, to point out, and easy to equally treat all riders.  

Yet you claim it was unfair and cannot provide a single “shred” of factual and verifiable evidence as to why.  That’s the step up I’m talking about…

Hypothetically, what if the data they have shows that lap was Vialle’s fastest segment of the race???  Can you dispute that too?  We need to see the data to make statements like you’re making…

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Meister
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5/26/2024 8:04pm

Neither should have been penalized. 

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Press516
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5/26/2024 8:06pm
Meister wrote:

Neither should have been penalized. 

I agree, but if the AMA says the data doesn’t support that, what’s your argument going to be?  The data is wrong?

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Press516
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5/26/2024 8:08pm

And before anyone goes there, I like Vialle a lot more than Deegan.

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Meister
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5/26/2024 8:13pm

The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying. 

Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion. Lol

A guy who goes off the track cant just lay down. I believe Tom knew his surroundings and knew it was safe. I don't believe he gained time by doing it as they got through that section fast as hell. 

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Press516
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5/26/2024 8:21pm
Meister wrote:
The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying.  Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion...

The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying. 

Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion. Lol

A guy who goes off the track cant just lay down. I believe Tom knew his surroundings and knew it was safe. I don't believe he gained time by doing it as they got through that section fast as hell. 

I’m only saying what was said by the AMA…. Agree or disagree, not my problem either way.  I personally don’t think they made the right call.  Like you, I don’t think anyone should have gotten a penalty.

But with all the pro’s on here giving it the eye test, with nothing to back it up, I say go hire a professional video editor that can do a proper overlay and prove those statements…. Prove the AMA is playing favorites, etc.  Otherwise all we’re getting is their opinion with zero evidence to back it up.

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Shred
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5/26/2024 8:39pm Edited Date/Time 5/26/2024 8:42pm
Meister wrote:
The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying.  Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion...

The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying. 

Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion. Lol

A guy who goes off the track cant just lay down. I believe Tom knew his surroundings and knew it was safe. I don't believe he gained time by doing it as they got through that section fast as hell. 

Press516 wrote:
I’m only saying what was said by the AMA…. Agree or disagree, not my problem either way.  I personally don’t think they made the right call...

I’m only saying what was said by the AMA…. Agree or disagree, not my problem either way.  I personally don’t think they made the right call.  Like you, I don’t think anyone should have gotten a penalty.

But with all the pro’s on here giving it the eye test, with nothing to back it up, I say go hire a professional video editor that can do a proper overlay and prove those statements…. Prove the AMA is playing favorites, etc.  Otherwise all we’re getting is their opinion with zero evidence to back it up.

OMG…if they look the same then treat them the same.  Not that hard.  If you are hiring a professional editor to do overlays…well shit…let’s end the discussion here.  
 

…btw….are you a lawyer?  or employed by the AMA? Just asking….nothing to do with this.

….common sense is not common

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Press516
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5/26/2024 8:46pm
Meister wrote:
The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying.  Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion...

The data baseline needs reconsidered is all im saying. 

Im no fanboy for either rider for the record. I respect them all. Just sharing my opinion. Lol

A guy who goes off the track cant just lay down. I believe Tom knew his surroundings and knew it was safe. I don't believe he gained time by doing it as they got through that section fast as hell. 

Press516 wrote:
I’m only saying what was said by the AMA…. Agree or disagree, not my problem either way.  I personally don’t think they made the right call...

I’m only saying what was said by the AMA…. Agree or disagree, not my problem either way.  I personally don’t think they made the right call.  Like you, I don’t think anyone should have gotten a penalty.

But with all the pro’s on here giving it the eye test, with nothing to back it up, I say go hire a professional video editor that can do a proper overlay and prove those statements…. Prove the AMA is playing favorites, etc.  Otherwise all we’re getting is their opinion with zero evidence to back it up.

Shred wrote:
OMG…if they look the same then treat them the same.  Not that hard.  If you are hiring a professional editor to do overlays…well shit…let’s end the...

OMG…if they look the same then treat them the same.  Not that hard.  If you are hiring a professional editor to do overlays…well shit…let’s end the discussion here.  
 

…btw….are you a lawyer?  or employed by the AMA? Just asking….nothing to do with this.

….common sense is not common

No, I’m an operations professional, data analysis is one of my things…. If you can’t understand that yes, you need more than your eyes to definitively call them out as liars, when they say they reviewed the data, we’re certainly done here.

 

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5/26/2024 9:05pm

Look at the segment times for moto 2 sector 3. Watch the race back. Deegan picks up the line outside the marker about halfway through. Tell me if it’s an advantage. 

CPR
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5/26/2024 10:18pm

If the AMA claims to be using data to determine if an advantage was gained in any particular off track excursion, then the only data accurate enough would be from the team’s own GPS’s on the bikes. If that’s the case, which I highly doubt it is, what do they do when it’s a privateer without such devices? 

Either way, the ruling is not just ‘gain advantage’, it also has wording about ‘slowing down immediately’ and ‘re-entering safely’, which means it all comes down to a judgement call as usual.

I’d like to hear Mike Pelletier properly explain how they made both decisions, but I highly doubt that as well…….Oh well, what drama’s gonna happen next week?

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LungButter
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5/26/2024 11:24pm
tek14 wrote:

Local kid from merica.. whos gonna give him penalty? 

Frenchie don’t want none. 

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MxAddic
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5/27/2024 4:56am
CPR wrote:
If the AMA claims to be using data to determine if an advantage was gained in any particular off track excursion, then the only data accurate...

If the AMA claims to be using data to determine if an advantage was gained in any particular off track excursion, then the only data accurate enough would be from the team’s own GPS’s on the bikes. If that’s the case, which I highly doubt it is, what do they do when it’s a privateer without such devices? 

Either way, the ruling is not just ‘gain advantage’, it also has wording about ‘slowing down immediately’ and ‘re-entering safely’, which means it all comes down to a judgement call as usual.

I’d like to hear Mike Pelletier properly explain how they made both decisions, but I highly doubt that as well…….Oh well, what drama’s gonna happen next week?

Hanging onto the aspect if he gained time is a cover-up because the rule plainly says to reduce your speed. The AMA will walk this back only because they got caught trying the cover for Deegan and the fans ain’t having it.

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mx317
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5/27/2024 7:05am
CPR wrote:
If the AMA claims to be using data to determine if an advantage was gained in any particular off track excursion, then the only data accurate...

If the AMA claims to be using data to determine if an advantage was gained in any particular off track excursion, then the only data accurate enough would be from the team’s own GPS’s on the bikes. If that’s the case, which I highly doubt it is, what do they do when it’s a privateer without such devices? 

Either way, the ruling is not just ‘gain advantage’, it also has wording about ‘slowing down immediately’ and ‘re-entering safely’, which means it all comes down to a judgement call as usual.

I’d like to hear Mike Pelletier properly explain how they made both decisions, but I highly doubt that as well…….Oh well, what drama’s gonna happen next week?

MxAddic wrote:
Hanging onto the aspect if he gained time is a cover-up because the rule plainly says to reduce your speed. The AMA will walk this back...

Hanging onto the aspect if he gained time is a cover-up because the rule plainly says to reduce your speed. The AMA will walk this back only because they got caught trying the cover for Deegan and the fans ain’t having it.

Fans don’t really have a choice but to “have it”. They may not buy it, but it is what they say it is whether we agree or not. 

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