Posts
794
Joined
3/26/2017
Location
San Clemente, CA
US
Watching the Triumph videos, they claim to have taken the "best bits" from each manufacturer and if I remember correctly one of the R&D guys even admitted Yamaha has the best stock suspension. However it seems that although Triumph has KYB, it's not the SSS internals. I noticed the same with Kawasaki.
Does Yamaha have exclusive rights to the SSS internals?
Sort of. They have some specific valving settings that others can't implement out of the box. This has been mentioned in TM reviews.
Reminder: the cheap-ass RMZ250 is also similar to Yamaha spec.
The SSS moniker is trademarked.
It's my understanding Yamaha purchased KYB , the may be holding onto the SSS technology for use exclusively on the YZ line but that is pure speculation
They are all KYB AOS forks and KYB works with each manufacturer on their own proprietary settings. Yamaha is the only one that calls them SSS but they are all basically the same forks.
The Shop
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
Free shipping: VITALMX
Yamaha owns 33% of KYB. Honda owns 66% of Showa's parent company. KTM group owns WP.
The Yamaha stock valving is somewhat protected by IP agreement, but the general fork/shock KYB configuration and parts are the same as many models on the market. SSS is a trademarked Yamaha brand.
Grape Ape appears to be the only one who has any idea what he's talking about. Please don't look for technical answers at Vital MX...
The KYB AOS forks are the same fork, but each company has their own valving which can be duplicated by a good tuner. Some of the best forks I ever had were some 2010 KYB AOS forks on a KX450F that was done by ENZO. SSS is just a name used by Yamaha, but Yamaha does have some good stock specs.
So a Duck is hyping up an Ape, what is the world coming to??
Zootropolis
SSS is a marketing term… just like BASS.
A dog licking their balls...
ML said in one of the videos I watched the Triumph is using a slightly smaller cart than what the current Yamahas have now, I know there are some other small changes with the KX and RMZ stuff, cart size, base valve size, etc. each manufacturer running their own valving specs and probably pistons
I've just always found it interesting that Yamaha, Stark, TM, Beta, Triumph, Kawasaki SR and others have promoted the KYB suspension as a premium component, which it is, but KYB's good stuff is also stock for the absolute cheapest bike in the industry, and they are not smart or engaged enough to tout it. Can you imagine that with any other product?
You sir, are the man...
Yes.
KYB AOSS / "SSS" forks are "Almost Same" regardless of which bike they come from.
SSS has been a marketing term for almost 20 years, but there is a functional difference in Yamaha's tuning.
Yamaha has been using different shims and spring rates in their version of the KYB AOSS fork since the beginning, but technically, you can take a cartridge from a Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, etc with KYB AOSS forks and install a similar setup to duplicate the Yamaha feel. Different chassis actually won't feel the same with an identical tune, though.
The 2018 YZ450F and 2019 YZ250F and all subsequent four strokes have the 25mm mid-valve piston diameter while all the older stuff has a 24mm mid-valve. Those bikes also changed to what everyone calls "leaf spring mid valve".
In my opinion, 25mm cartridges aren't as much of an improvement for the average guy as the leaf spring mid valve.
Kawasaki had leaf spring mid-valve in their 2012 KX450F with a 24mm cartridge. I think most people prefer Yamaha's overall setting, even if the Kawasaki fork was technically a step ahead in features during that time.
All of the 24mm KYB AOSS cartridges I've ever seen use the same mid valve and compression pistions.
What varies is the shim stack, the free piston and the pressure spring.
I'm running 24mm cartridges from a 2012 KX450F in my MC350F currently. ( dialedmfg.com )
I have the most recent YZ-F 25mm cartridges too and have worked on many variations in doing fork swaps.
All versions of the KYB AOSS forks can be great if they are tuned correctly for you, your bike and your riding conditions.
Shims, springs and oil are what really matters and if you find a good tuner you will benefit more from their expertise than any other modification you can do to a bike including bolting on a "kit fork" that hasn't been tuned properly.
It’s funny, I had a set of 2012 kyb forks from a crf450r setup for my 2020 Honda and they were hands down the best forks I have ever ridden. I now have a 2022 yz450f and the same suspension tuner has never been able to replicate the same performance with the “new and improved” kyb offering after a couple of revalves.
2 entirely different chassis to tune for. not quite equal apples to apples
Pit Row
CW - since you obviously have spent a good deal of time with these forks maybe you can clarify something for me since a lot of my technical notes were lost when our house was flooded about 9 years ago and my memory is fuzzy going that far back.
Obviously, the AOS/AOSS/SSS acronyms can be a source of confusion for many, so can you quantify the structural differences between the 2005 KYB AOSS forks on the YZ's versus the SSS version that debuted on them in 2006? It seems like the AOSS/SSS component differences were significant but since the year 2006, the AOS/SSS acronym is used to differentiate KYB equipped non-Yamaha bikes from KYB equipped Yamahas, but the forks are primarily the same base architecture.
I seem to remember some sort of long plastic sleeve (bottoming sleeve/tapered cone?) in the bottom of the leg in the AOSS forks on my '05 YZ250 (that isn't present in the SSS) and other noticeable differences internally from the SSS on my '06 YZ125. Functionally, there was a large difference in their performance - I never got happy with the AOSS but the SSS had me smiling out of the box.
Does it go like this - 2005 AOSS to 2006 SSS - significant internal structural differences. 2006 to present SSS and AOS - primarily the same base architecture?
Which, in summary would be -
AOSS - Yamaha marketing acronym (like BASS, YEIS, YPVS, etc.) for 2005 AOS fork design.
AOS - Acronym for general Air/Oil Separate (twin-chamber) fork design.
SSS - Yamaha marketing acronym for 2006 and later AOS design
Thanks in advance.
Fair point, I was referring to the performance of the forks themselves though not necessarily handling of the bike. I’ve had showa a kit, kyb psf1 and cone valves over the years for reference plus a few different tuners. I’ve actually toyed with the idea of bolting them up to the yz450f with a Honda front wheel just to see if they have the same performance. They will most likely just sit in my cupboard and I’ll reminisce of the one time I found my perfect setting haha
Leeham is addressing the issue of chassis differences making the same forks feel different when mounted on 2 different bikes.
A lot of KTM off-road riders installed the SSS forks on their bikes and never found the same feel they provided when they were on the Yamaha. It works as a complete system - bike and forks combined.
Good luck with it.
Does it go like this - 2005 AOSS to 2006 SSS - significant internal structural differences. 2006 to present SSS and AOS - primarily the same base architecture?
Yeah, I think that's the main point with all of the KYB forks used in the Yamahas.
In other brands, they picked up the equivalent of the 2006+ YZ system along the way on some models.
I think if you tore down that old 2005 fork on the bench next to a 2006 fork you would be shocked (hah) at how similar they are in physical configuration. The real big change was actually from the open chamber 46mm forks that were standard on many bikes up to that 2005 fork.
All these KYB forks 2006+ use the same pistons, the same cartridge tube diameters and the same cartridge rod diameters.
That means all the oil flows and pressures, advantages and limitations of the design are functionally the same and the primary difference is in the small, inexpensive tuning parts (mainly shims and springs). You can compare part numbers in KYB's catalog and see how Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda, etc. all share similar parts but vary in length and state of tune.
It's amazing how much tuning range a KYB or Showa twin chamber fork has in the design.
It's cool that so many great tuners out there are familiar with them and know how to make them work so well.
So to that point, the fact I bolted them up to a 2020 crf450r that was a stiffer natured bike that was very finicky to set up track to track with the 49mm showas and they performed better than the yamaha I have now demonstrates they were a very good fork that was discontinued. Things change over time but it doesn’t necessarily mean better.
Thanks and yes, the OC "rubber baby-buggy bumper" forks on my '02 YZ250 and '03 YZ450F were very different than the later TC designs. I hated the OC forks in stock trim until Terry Haye gave me some tips on disabling the CV valve and some shim stacks that greatly improved them.
The SSS were like love at first sight.
"Things change over time but it doesn’t necessarily mean better."
Truer words were never spoken... but marketing guys would have you believe otherwise.
Kyb got their elite branding after ktm fork conversions I.m.o
I found a pic showing the differences I was talking about (2005 AOSS top, SSS bottom). The best part is that my memory hasn't completely left me.
This is a great topic. I have been considering a 300 RR Beta mainly because of the KYB Suspension I fell in love with on my current YZ 250.
I was told by a salesman that the forks were "much" different than the YZ KYB Stuff.He suggested the Beta stuff was not as good.
Maybe the guy had a reason for not wanting you to buy a Beta. Yamaha settings may be much better.
The spring seats and oil locks were dramatically different, but the actual cartridge design was very similar.
They have different diameters, so the oil volumes, pressures & flows are not the same.
2005 YZ450F top, 2012 YZ450F bottom.
(note that the spring perch on the 2012 cartridge is slid down to the seal-head and not in the normal position)
Post a reply to: Does Yamaha have an exclusive deal on the KYB SSS internals?