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I've been injured myself by one, and it took forever to heal up from it. The only thing that saved me was that the track was muddy. Moreover, one of my dearest friends is a track builder. He had just put the finishing touches on a jump and a buddy who was there with him at the track he was building approached it, his bike hit a false neutral on the face of it, and he crashed and died in my friend's arms. I was at another track where it happened to a kid on a CR85 - he compounded his femur so bad the bone was just sticking out of his pants into the open air. It took forever for the life-flight chopper to get there, and we all just stood around while he screamed in agony. I had another friend who ran a track not far from where I live - false neutrals on jumps were the number one reason for ambulance runs. They are a scourge upon the sport and a measurable factor in every single race season, pro and amateur alike but in supercross especially, with the usual result being a season-ending injury - or worse. No amount of talent saves you from it.
So uh, am I being a "bit desperate" here because false neutrals are not a "major problem"? If you think so, fine, but you'll perhaps allow me to take a different view.
You mean make a better bike than currently exists? We are currently riding the best motocross bikes ever made, making a 450 a 500 will not make a better motocross bike. Aprilia tried a twin, not a motocross bike. Putting a 500 2 stroke in a new chassis, not a better motocross bike. Putting a 600cc 4 cylinder in a motocross frame, not a better motocross bike….
but electric… that scares the manufacturers and you that it could be better.
the displacement limit was appropriate at the time, and with it, it encouraged motocross bike development. Without it, motocross would have stagnated as a bike and as a sport.
artificially limit e bikes to a specific power level far below 4 strokes and you limit their development and the sports growth. Don’t be a Luddite get on board
LMAO, yep, when that gate drops HP means nothing. And you think I am brain dead. Maybe if Stark agrees with you they will limit the varg to 25HP and be allowed to race.
You’re right that why everyone races 450s in Endurocross
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Could be because weight and and even more so inertia are detrimental. Is not lack of engine inertia one of the vargs trump cards? Between that, on demand full torque with instant response and lack of transmission Stark's wings will have to be clipped to make a level playing field. Just a comparable HP number is not going to do it.
The rotating mass for a 450 is something I reserve for the moto track as well.
You have my sympathy for being unfortunate enough to witness so many "false neutral" serious accidents, when the average person never sees such a great number in decades, if ever.
Personally , I have never seen or heard of a "false neutral" serious accident, but I have seen several cases of - Broken Chains, over the years that could have had a nasty outcome.
This got me thinking about these Vargs and other e-bikes
If you have 80hp + instant torque , surely these bikes are more likely to break a chain ?
If this happens, at a dangerous moment, you will get the exact same outcome as all those serious "false neutral' crashes you are concerned about .
PLUS, you will get some buyers of e-bikes, who have believed the "no maintenance" BS, that surrounds these bikes, and they won't even think to check - chain adjustment, sprocket wear, lubrication etc. until it's too late.
I appreciate the sincerity and kindness of your response. There's always going to be risk to this sport, that edge is part of what our attraction to it is, I suppose, and there will always be people who foolishly overlook maintenance issues and unfortunately suffer the consequences.
The incidents I'm talking about are different. They weren't as preventable.
Last night I was thinking about how many times I'd heard Ricky Carmichael commentate about a supercross crash as he watched it in slow motion. I cannot say for certain as it wasn't my primary focus as I watched, but I believe there was a crash by Cooper Webb a while back where he landed on his back on concrete that involved a false neutral, Mookie had one as well, I think there was a guy from Star who had one, Dungey had one during his return to outdoors (and this was on the first lap as he was very near the front, it was a miracle he escaped without major injury and he said as much himself), and maybe Chase too? I'm not sure, I only know whenever I'd hear Ricky's take that it involved a false neutral, my mind would go back to my friend and what he went through - and my mind has done it more than a few times.
I hate how divisive and political this has all become, but it's a full-on fight now, and I'm not backing down one millimeter from something I see as being a hugely beneficial safety improvement for anyone and everyone who might want to take advantage of it.
No, it’s not even close to that simple. The Stark is still heavy on the stand, and you feel it when you’re doing tight, technical riding like EX. Power will also not get you far in that type of racing, it’s all about control and being able to manage what you have while still having enough to get the quick bursts of speed that you occasionally need to jump obstacles. I don’t know how you can come to conclusion that the Stark needs to be regulated out of existence for a type of riding you’ve never done and on a bike you’ve never ridden, it’s kind of odd for you to even have an opinion on the subject.
Rarely have I seen someone spread as much BS as you. You're clearly a lobbysist with an agenda.
And if ever you're not, you really should be: you're very good at that.
If all of the posts and comments here were based on real-world, firsthand experience, this forum would have about five members!
I don't see what's so scary about technological progress and the future. They're inevitable yet a lot of folks here seem to be terrified.
"E bikes are a better race tool"
I just can't believe someone can seriously write that today. Maybe it'll be true in the future, it sure isn't right now.
First, for the most part, Starks don't race since they're not allowed to (probably cause everybody knows they're a waaaaay better race tool that'll spank the competition, lol).
Second, what they're allowed to race is, for the most part, rather irrelevant. Beagle will be more precise than me on this, but I think they had a podium in finnish SX, a good race in UK arenacross and a bunch of top 5 in french SX2.
Third, I watched closely Thomas Do in SX Tour, and even though he had many holeshots, he looks worse I've ever seen him on a bike. Many mistakes in rhythm sections, trying to survive the whoops on a wild bronco... In Paris, Josh Varize didn't look any better.
To this day and until proven otherwise, the Stark seems to be more of a fast, silent freeride bike.
As for the "better race tool", it's a pretty bold and baseless assumption.
Apparently the FIM does not agree with you.
How I missed your insight. Still waiting for you to point out any BS I've posted.
Maybe you got me confused with someone else here? I mean it's conceivable given the amount of BS flying around.
Just to be clear it wasn't me stating that Stark would never deliver bikes to customers, that it was all a Ponzi scheme funded by $100 deposits or whatever.
On the other hand I'm glad to have helped you in your noble quest to push against BS, I mean that must really annoy you when some here state such easily disproven BS like that EV release more CO2 than ICE, that EV sales are tanking, that Toyota is stopping all EV investment or that charging an EV for one hour takes as much electricity as 280 homes for an entire year (I can't get over this one
)?
You're welcome
If that’s true, why would the AMA worry about how to implement them? If they aren’t so much better, why not let them race? Why do KTM step in and get the rules changed so Stark couldn’t race, at the last minute?
Don't forget, they are also stopping child slavery by buying ICE bikes.
Oops, looks like my favorite shadow downvoter clicked a little too fast.
It's ok buddy, these things happen
Pretty sure some of testers claim it has a feathery feel like a 125 but I could be wrong. 80HP 125, nope no advantage there. The silent assassin? Nope, never be any issues there either.
It's not that they definitely are or they aren't, it's that KTM who once raced an E-Bike in that series is rallying to ensure that this E-Bike doesn't race... And a very recent ex-pro turned a faster lap time on his home track on a borrowed bike than his own personal bike...
So not definitely a better race machine but for me it definitely feels a bit like the old YZM/f400 in 1997/8. It was heavier, bogged occasionally and was hard as fuck to start and it took until was it 2006? for a four stroke to win a Supercross championship and 2004? motocross to win a 250/450 championship? Their was defintely something there. And it's the same with this bike, theres something there.
Torque, smooth power, balls of the feet riding all the time (no more feet dancing for gears and brakes), less rotating mass, cheaper running costs, silence, less maintenance etc etc etc and like the old 400, their is some downsides. Range and luddites who only like riding because of the ball vibrations they get.
Pit Row
You flatter me. I actually enjoyed your post. I am sorry if that was not your intention.
Holy guacamole, now I'm confused MX
Sorry bro. I am not your secret admirer.
What does Martin's lap has to do with actual racing, especially at top level?
Aranda beat everyone on one lap in Paris, do you think he would win AMA SX 2024?
Let's just remember that Anton sold his Varg as "the best motocross bike in the world". Still, it probably couldn't finish a full pro MX moto.
Yes that's a good recap, the Varg (capped at 60 hp to race against 450s) podiumed in Arenacross UK (4 podiums out of 6 main events) and Finnish SX (2 podiums out of 2 main events).
Capped at 48 hp to race against 250s, it proved impossible to step on the rostrum, Do was merely a regular occurence in the top 6 of France SX tour (6 top6 in 8 races, best results two 4th).
To give a hint of international perspective, at Paris, Do on the Varg was lapping 1.5 s slower than Shimoda. I'd be curious what the difference would have been if he had been riding ICE but to me that's not too bad. Zaragoza also beat some AMA regulars in Finland and in AX UK, Do is currently 3rd in the championship behind ex GP riders Tommy Searle and Conrad Mewse.
The Varg has been competitive in SX/AX from the very start in all pro competitions that Stark has been able to enter, even as a non-scoring wildcard. How impressive this is depends on your expectations and perspective.
Personally I like their fighting spirit, Stark are determined to prove their bike (and learn and improve ) in the most competitive environment, they are pushing hard to race everywhere they can. They are going all in, supporting more and more pro riders, hopefully we'll soon get to see Justin Bogle race SX in Europe or Australia and Taddy B race in FIM super enduro and AMA Enduro cross.
Bear in mind, before the Varg came along, KTM had major mojo. They would reveal their Factory Edition bikes and the entire motocross world would drool in unison and fall to their knees in wanton desire. They'd all be sold out before they even arrived at dealerships. I would know, I tried to get one of them two years in a row, but some ultra-rich guy had a standing offer to go 20% over whatever I was willing to pay.
Now? - they just released photos of them in beautiful sunset settings, all aglow in their heavenly orange, and they'll be lucky to get two full pages for their efforts; and the comments are like, "Is there a hole in that part of the frame or is that just a sticker?"
It's gotta be hard to swallow becoming yesterday's news so quickly, and with so little warning. Being the tip of the spear in banning the Varg won't do anything to help their reputation in the long run, quite the opposite in fact, but I'm sure it's given them a much-needed feeling of being a - and try not to chuckle like I am - "Game Changer."
Serious question? What does stark claim their batter life to be? And what does it cost to replace a battery on a stark in 4 years if I were to buy one
Don't you mean KTM?
You can take a look here https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/moto-related/2024-ktm-sxf250-vs-stark-co….
The don't make a claim for battery life, charging the battery quickly will reduce battery life, the battery cells lose almost 20% capacity when charged at 10A after 500 charges...
The cost to replace the complete battery pack from Stark is $7,000, that would be like buying a new engine for an ICE bike.
The battery pack has 400 battery cells, total cost for the battery cells is $800...
I don't know about the battery life, but a replacement battery is 7k USD.
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