What are all these brands seeing in the sport now?

11/8/2023 7:15pm
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and...

Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and take another stab at it. They definitely werent ready for primetime when Ping rode one, but they definitely could put out a competitive bike today if they wanted to. Hell a ton of the parts are already made over there anyways. Every once in a while I come across video reviews on youtube for some of the chinese bikes and supposedly some of them are pretty good now. 
 

If they were serious about creating their own bike and not illegally copying other brands intellectual property I dont necessarily think it would be the worst thing ever. If they could offer a cheaper bike more tailored towards new riders or ppl without a lot of money that could be okay. The sport is getting crazy expensive for just casual riders. I definitely would not be okay with them trying to flood the market though with super cheap bikes with stolen ip to undercut the other brands trying to force them out of the market like theyve done in many other areas. If they had to play fair I think it could be pretty cool. 

You're already seeing a handful of companies producing bikes at or close race-ready (depending on your definition).

Do these china bikes need more revision to the engine manufacturing and other parts? Yes. But its not rocket science and I think you'll see a few bikes from china compete with circa 2015 KTM's within the next 1-2 years

Will these chinese companies ever sponsor a series or put big money into supporting a race team? Never. These guys want to build a product and thats it. They would never consider throwing money away at a team, and why should they--let the KTM's and hondas of the world spend money on race teams and development, and china brand can just come in two years later and steal the technology and sell the product half price

4
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
11/8/2023 7:18pm
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and...

Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and take another stab at it. They definitely werent ready for primetime when Ping rode one, but they definitely could put out a competitive bike today if they wanted to. Hell a ton of the parts are already made over there anyways. Every once in a while I come across video reviews on youtube for some of the chinese bikes and supposedly some of them are pretty good now. 
 

If they were serious about creating their own bike and not illegally copying other brands intellectual property I dont necessarily think it would be the worst thing ever. If they could offer a cheaper bike more tailored towards new riders or ppl without a lot of money that could be okay. The sport is getting crazy expensive for just casual riders. I definitely would not be okay with them trying to flood the market though with super cheap bikes with stolen ip to undercut the other brands trying to force them out of the market like theyve done in many other areas. If they had to play fair I think it could be pretty cool. 

Kove raced and finished the Dakar last year on bikes you can buy. 
 

It’s not popular on this forum but that’s the biggest stage in the world really. 
 

Some folks own them now. Real world reviews are decent from the little I’ve seen. Especially for the price. 

2
1
11/8/2023 7:30pm

Different brands would ultimately mean more people buying bikes, im sure there are a some people out there that never owned a dirtbike would buy a Ducati dirt bike because it's Ducati.

11/9/2023 1:15am

Stock MX Bikes selling at minimum $10,000+ price range . . . who doesn't want a piece of that action!

The Shop

StillSmokin
Posts
739
Joined
3/18/2022
Location
Edmond, OK, USA
11/9/2023 5:56am
The Japanese brands had a monopoly on mx sales for a long time and maybe got a bit complacent. KTM came along with innovation, investment etc...

The Japanese brands had a monopoly on mx sales for a long time and maybe got a bit complacent. KTM came along with innovation, investment etc and became the biggest name in mx and off-road after being almost bankrupt a decade earlier. They committed to the sport and it paid them back.

They've used that income from off-road to springboard into the road market and then into motogp. Maybe there's a bigger income from off-road than people realise? Spares are constantly being bought as the bikes take a hammering ( for example; imagine the rise in spares orders after every extreme enduro). Road bikes don't need anything like the upkeep that off road bikes do; a lot of road riders get their bikes out on dry days and don't actually clock up much wear and tear. Also, the age demographic of road riders is getting older and sales are falling every year.

Also, I'm guessing an MXGP or SX team can be run and financed for a fraction of the cost of a motoGP team, but a winning off road team will sell a lot of bikes for that smaller investment. Those bikes will then help sell a LOT of spare parts.

Who would of thought all they needed to do was add linkage and Dungey to start the wave.

avidchimp
Posts
5778
Joined
7/9/2008
Location
EGL, MN, USA
11/9/2023 8:13am
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and...

Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and take another stab at it. They definitely werent ready for primetime when Ping rode one, but they definitely could put out a competitive bike today if they wanted to. Hell a ton of the parts are already made over there anyways. Every once in a while I come across video reviews on youtube for some of the chinese bikes and supposedly some of them are pretty good now. 
 

If they were serious about creating their own bike and not illegally copying other brands intellectual property I dont necessarily think it would be the worst thing ever. If they could offer a cheaper bike more tailored towards new riders or ppl without a lot of money that could be okay. The sport is getting crazy expensive for just casual riders. I definitely would not be okay with them trying to flood the market though with super cheap bikes with stolen ip to undercut the other brands trying to force them out of the market like theyve done in many other areas. If they had to play fair I think it could be pretty cool. 

PING

3
1
ATKpilot99
Posts
10444
Joined
4/13/2010
Location
Lake Geneva, WI, USA
11/9/2023 8:18am
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and...

Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and take another stab at it. They definitely werent ready for primetime when Ping rode one, but they definitely could put out a competitive bike today if they wanted to. Hell a ton of the parts are already made over there anyways. Every once in a while I come across video reviews on youtube for some of the chinese bikes and supposedly some of them are pretty good now. 
 

If they were serious about creating their own bike and not illegally copying other brands intellectual property I dont necessarily think it would be the worst thing ever. If they could offer a cheaper bike more tailored towards new riders or ppl without a lot of money that could be okay. The sport is getting crazy expensive for just casual riders. I definitely would not be okay with them trying to flood the market though with super cheap bikes with stolen ip to undercut the other brands trying to force them out of the market like theyve done in many other areas. If they had to play fair I think it could be pretty cool. 

avidchimp wrote:

PING

That article is hilarious 

2
SmokinJoe439
Posts
2386
Joined
3/7/2012
Location
Renton, WA, USA
11/9/2023 8:40am

CF Moto has had for a couple seasons now. A team of two riders in moto gp in the moto 3 class. Even though technically they are just racing the ktm bike with their name on it currently. 

early
Posts
9891
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
11/9/2023 9:46am

I think Triumph and Ducati see a benefit in developing moto style singles. 

Triumph provides engines for moto 2, they may want to break into moto 3 with a 250 single before ultimately moving up to the big show of motogp. 

Most roadracers are practicing on 450 dirttrackers, Ducati's riders don't have a Ducati 450 to practice on and be seen in pictures on. Developing a dirt 450 gives them a platform for a hole in their lineup. 

11/9/2023 10:16am
I think its probably a mix of things. When the Japanese bikes first came out , they were looked at like the chinese bikes are now...

I think its probably a mix of things. When the Japanese bikes first came out , they were looked at like the chinese bikes are now. But the manufacturing methods are better all around these days and I think that China can build some competitive bikes. They have become great at making stuff , but a lot are copies of other brands. So now brands with established names, can get into the off road market for the cost of R&D and have china build most of the parts for their bikes. 

The amount of data collected by everybody, must also be showing that people are more open to buying new products from established brands. And like another post said, Dirt bikes are  cheaper than a lot of other forms of recreation even as expensive as they are. 

Also a great way to test out electric motors and components, and spread out the cost of manufacturing. They might be building the gas bikes to establish a foothold while they work on the electric bikes. As well as be able to be a part of the rule making that shapes the electric classes of the future. Getting a window into the future by being a part of that Rule making process. Especially if  motors and other parts will be shared across multiple platforms. They might have even been prototyping  an electric alongside the gas bike. 

They can use the same motors and controls on a wide range of off road and street motorcycles. Right now You have to develop an engine and 1000's of parts for that engine for each class of MX bike , and also each street motorcycle has a much more specific engine. With electric You could use a single  motor across multiple different platforms and make adjustments at the controler. Adding or removing battery capacity to get to the "class" of power output. 

 

  As well as giving them a way to get some younger riders , some great cross promotion. It is one of the great things about electric that I have been saying for years now.  All of a sudden You go from having to develop an engine and chassis to bring out a new model or go into a new segment, to developing a chassis and using a motor from one of the other bikes You make. And there is a lot less R&D to do. So Your cost to do it comes down.  And it also makes the other bikes You build cost less by building more of the same exact parts before needing a new mold or new tooling.  

Pop Shmoke wrote:
Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and...

Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and take another stab at it. They definitely werent ready for primetime when Ping rode one, but they definitely could put out a competitive bike today if they wanted to. Hell a ton of the parts are already made over there anyways. Every once in a while I come across video reviews on youtube for some of the chinese bikes and supposedly some of them are pretty good now. 
 

If they were serious about creating their own bike and not illegally copying other brands intellectual property I dont necessarily think it would be the worst thing ever. If they could offer a cheaper bike more tailored towards new riders or ppl without a lot of money that could be okay. The sport is getting crazy expensive for just casual riders. I definitely would not be okay with them trying to flood the market though with super cheap bikes with stolen ip to undercut the other brands trying to force them out of the market like theyve done in many other areas. If they had to play fair I think it could be pretty cool. 

I think that they might be able to make more money building the other brands bikes for the other brands. Working as a manufacture and not as a motorcycle company.  If they know people expect to pay less for their own Chinese brands. Why not keep making parts for Honda, KTM, etc. and sell those parts at a higher volume with less  work ( R&D, advertising,etc.) for a similar price to what they might be able to sell their own branded items for?  They may have No compete clauses in their agreements. So the factories that can build  good stuff might not want to build it and brand it themselves because they would cut themselves off from the easier money they get from making bikes for others.

I have seen some chinese (clones) of products I am a dealer for. And knowing the price I get, I could see some of those clones they are selling being priced close to what a distributor might pay , or sometimes what  the distributor sells them for.   Some of those clones are so close to the real thing, I wouldn't be surprised if they were made in the same place. If they made an item just as good as those brand names they are selling out the back door, but put their own branding onto it. They would still have to sell it for less than their knock offs, OR build up a brand that people want to buy. And have to spend money on advertising ,R&D, and all the other things a brand name spends on besides the product itself.

So they would have a lot of extra work and risk in building their own brands . Than they do building legit products for the existing brands and selling at wholesale in large amounts. A brand name is more of a legacy or an ego if You really think about it. If they can make the  same profit building for somebody else.  I'm sure that somebody could also make a case for why they should. I think that at this point  most people  know they can do it. But the expectation of it being cheaper might just be the reason why they do not do it.   

3
11/9/2023 10:34am
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and...

Speaking of chinese bikes I wonder how long it is until we see a serious chinese manufacturer try to put together a race bike/team again and take another stab at it. They definitely werent ready for primetime when Ping rode one, but they definitely could put out a competitive bike today if they wanted to. Hell a ton of the parts are already made over there anyways. Every once in a while I come across video reviews on youtube for some of the chinese bikes and supposedly some of them are pretty good now. 
 

If they were serious about creating their own bike and not illegally copying other brands intellectual property I dont necessarily think it would be the worst thing ever. If they could offer a cheaper bike more tailored towards new riders or ppl without a lot of money that could be okay. The sport is getting crazy expensive for just casual riders. I definitely would not be okay with them trying to flood the market though with super cheap bikes with stolen ip to undercut the other brands trying to force them out of the market like theyve done in many other areas. If they had to play fair I think it could be pretty cool. 

LungButter wrote:
Kove raced and finished the Dakar last year on bikes you can buy.    It’s not popular on this forum but that’s the biggest stage in...

Kove raced and finished the Dakar last year on bikes you can buy. 
 

It’s not popular on this forum but that’s the biggest stage in the world really. 
 

Some folks own them now. Real world reviews are decent from the little I’ve seen. Especially for the price. 

GPX moto has done some off road racing with their bikes. But I guess they are just another chinese built bike.  And Kove is a chinese branded and built bike. 

I think that it's a lot more work to go from building quality bikes  that are designed, tested  and spec'd by somebody else, to doing it all. And the expectations of a chinese brand costing less for similar quality, might just make the margins too thin to be worth it.  If They can sell 1000's of bikes at wholesale VS 100's of bikes at retail with the increased costs and liabilities it might not make sense for many to do it. 

I do hope that the trend of more brands building bikes and having race programs continues.  

2
Brad460
Posts
4463
Joined
5/15/2012
Location
Richfield, WI, USA
Fantasy
11/9/2023 11:00am

This seems like the first question someone in the motocross media would have asked...

Personally I have no idea why so many are jumping into mx bikes...especially when you have one (Suzuki) who has seemed to write off mx as a viable product to invest in..

I look at snowmobiles as somewhat similar recreation as mx and you got Yamaha dropping out..

 

1
mikelawlor
Posts
173
Joined
12/4/2022
Location
Johnsonville, NY, USA
11/9/2023 11:19am
rileymx wrote:
what really surprises me is the absent of a american made brand.......being one of the biggest market in the world, and a very patriotic one...... its...

what really surprises me is the absent of a american made brand.......being one of the biggest market in the world, and a very patriotic one...... its for me surprising that usa doesnt have its own brand of dirt bikes......

I am a very patriotic person and wish most of the things we use or need would be made in America but it just will never happen because the masses want good quality for a cheap price. Take work boots for example. A Chippewa boot is say $250 the same exact boot American made is $350. And it’s just as big of a piece of shit as the ones made in china or wherever they make Them overseas. I still buy the American made ones to try and support American workers but it’s only $350 not a $10,000 dirt bike. If a 250/450 machine was made in America it would either be $14-15k or if they priced it to be on par with Jap/ Austrian bikes it would be a piece of shit. 

11/9/2023 12:32pm
rileymx wrote:
what really surprises me is the absent of a american made brand.......being one of the biggest market in the world, and a very patriotic one...... its...

what really surprises me is the absent of a american made brand.......being one of the biggest market in the world, and a very patriotic one...... its for me surprising that usa doesnt have its own brand of dirt bikes......

mikelawlor wrote:
I am a very patriotic person and wish most of the things we use or need would be made in America but it just will never...

I am a very patriotic person and wish most of the things we use or need would be made in America but it just will never happen because the masses want good quality for a cheap price. Take work boots for example. A Chippewa boot is say $250 the same exact boot American made is $350. And it’s just as big of a piece of shit as the ones made in china or wherever they make Them overseas. I still buy the American made ones to try and support American workers but it’s only $350 not a $10,000 dirt bike. If a 250/450 machine was made in America it would either be $14-15k or if they priced it to be on par with Jap/ Austrian bikes it would be a piece of shit. 

That's where I could see electric changing things up.  Build a chassis in the US and use a motor/control/battery from an outside vender like  most brands do with forks/shocks, brakes, bars, etc. But with the drivetrain parts.

Or even building the power components too. If a company like Ford or GM got into  making dirt bikes they could possible use some of their motors and controllers on cars too. run 2 motors on a car, or maybe 4 .    

Or perhaps a company like Segway. I'm not sure where they are based. But if they did an electric MX bike they could share the motors on their ATV's and SXS's to help spread out the  costs .   Its much easier to use an electric motor in multiple types of vehicles than a gas engine. You can  control the power so on some vehicles they would be not using even close to what the motor could handle. And save money by having fewer part numbers to produce. 

Its one of the good things I see possible with electric. Yah I know there are downsides to electric too. But there are downsides to everything.   

2
fourfourone
Posts
3045
Joined
10/14/2017
Location
86oh, CT, USA
11/9/2023 12:45pm

All these new brands and Suzuki is still here with a 10-year-old bike and kickstart. 

1
Crossup
Posts
1655
Joined
12/13/2007
Location
Freetown, MA, USA
11/9/2023 12:51pm

It's just line extensions to extend into new market segments for the brands and keep factories busy.

FreshTopEnd
Posts
13247
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/9/2023 12:53pm

Selling high margin street bikes to people who already are inclined to buy a bike.

11/9/2023 1:32pm

               Motocross is a way for a manufacturer to start a new rider on the road to brand loyalty. Other than MotoGP, no racing titles are more prestigious than MX/SX titles. At some point, quite a few off road riders will purchase a street bike, whether sport, cruiser, or adventure. The hook has been set, and brand loyalty plays a huge part in their decision making. The face of motorcycling may change in the next 10 years, as companies that have more electric motor expertise will choose to throw their hat into the motorbike ring. In the end, IMO, it bodes well for all of us.

2
Pop Shmoke
Posts
1903
Joined
6/17/2020
Location
Boston, MA, USA
11/9/2023 11:12pm Edited Date/Time 11/9/2023 11:15pm

Crazy that I was just asking about chinese bikes yesterday. Today MXA posted on ig the newly debuted Kove MX450. 220 lbs, 65hp, electric start, hydraulic clutch, map switch, traction control, and launch control. Pricing and availability soon. The styling isnt the greatest imo, but their sport bike styling has gotten pretty good so maybe the mxer will catch up.

IMG 9307

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czbtq2VJCMc/?igshid=MXZqZzhkbDJlaXhtMA==

 

image-20231110020703-1
image-20231110020743-2
 

Kove 450rr sport bike honestly looks pretty good, much better styling than the mx bike.

IMG 9313.jpeg?VersionId=QHsfrmlxWisd1XGo45e5ANo3cV
IMG 9315

https://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle-news/kove-450rr-targets-kawasaki-ninja-zx-4rr/

1
1
LungButter
Posts
8684
Joined
1/9/2016
Location
Yellow Pine, ID, USA
11/13/2023 8:17pm
Pop Shmoke wrote:
Apparently now fantic with an mxgp team, with Glen Coldenhoff as their rider. Theres brands coming out the ass now from next year on. I thought...

Apparently now fantic with an mxgp team, with Glen Coldenhoff as their rider. Theres brands coming out the ass now from next year on. I thought fantic was yamaha 2 strokes?
 

IMG 9347

https://www.instagram.com/p/CzmdVPoO4x8/?igshid=ZGw2d2Ftc3ZmdTQw

They've had guys racing Enduro GP on the 4 strokes for a few years at least. 
 

I think they also just announced a 310 version of the YZ250F 

wardy
Posts
1794
Joined
3/31/2008
Location
USA
11/13/2023 10:05pm

Just another opinion.

I think the covid bump we all experienced in 20-21 may have had an impact on this as there are numbers which were elevated to a point no one has seen in a long time. Couple that with all this talk about electric bikes (not against it either) many of these brands which are re-inventing themselves may NOT jump on the electric band wagon and see themselves as an option for the the brands saying they will be all electric in a few years.  

Since 10-12k is the norm in many of the bikes maybe some of these machines will be more competitive priced who knows. 

the sport needs new blood both with machines, maybe this attracts new ridership, it's been stale in that area and all of it hopefully will not only make the sport more viable but maybe safer as well.?

 

1

Post a reply to: What are all these brands seeing in the sport now?

The Latest