Stark Orders and Payments

JM485
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9/1/2023 6:01pm
avidchimp wrote:
Hey, now I have my own vitalmx downvote person. Must be someone from Stark who can't handle a little criticism on their business model. Build a...

Hey, now I have my own vitalmx downvote person. Must be someone from Stark who can't handle a little criticism on their business model. Build a bike, sell a bike, don't make people pay for something that will be coming "soon" and bank their money until you deliver. Pretty simple really.

Crazy You have over 4K posts and this is your first downvote.  Due to my mostly positive outlook on Electric MX bikes, and my wordy posts...

Crazy You have over 4K posts and this is your first downvote.  Due to my mostly positive outlook on Electric MX bikes, and my wordy posts. I probably have more downvotes than posts.  

avidchimp wrote:

Naw, I've been downvoted many times, but I am right on this one.

Believe me, we can perceive the level of conviction you have, that doesn't make it correct though.  Neither you or I have any idea what's holding production up, or how to solve it, you're just trying to simplify a potentially very complex issue.  If they're having trouble finding workers to fill out their production line then sure, you might have a point, but what if they're having trouble getting enough battery cells?  I don't care how much money you have, if they aren't available they aren't available and no E-bike company is building their own battery cells.  Or what if there is a shortage of raw materials to make said battery cells, what now?  (This is a purely hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point, I have no idea why production is behind)  Anton is a smart guy with a very capable staff around him, the fact that you think whatever is holding up production is some sort of trivial issue is honestly a little bit presumptuous, if it was that easy they would have figured it out by now.

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avidchimp
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9/1/2023 6:23pm
Crazy You have over 4K posts and this is your first downvote.  Due to my mostly positive outlook on Electric MX bikes, and my wordy posts...

Crazy You have over 4K posts and this is your first downvote.  Due to my mostly positive outlook on Electric MX bikes, and my wordy posts. I probably have more downvotes than posts.  

avidchimp wrote:

Naw, I've been downvoted many times, but I am right on this one.

JM485 wrote:
Believe me, we can perceive the level of conviction you have, that doesn't make it correct though.  Neither you or I have any idea what's holding...

Believe me, we can perceive the level of conviction you have, that doesn't make it correct though.  Neither you or I have any idea what's holding production up, or how to solve it, you're just trying to simplify a potentially very complex issue.  If they're having trouble finding workers to fill out their production line then sure, you might have a point, but what if they're having trouble getting enough battery cells?  I don't care how much money you have, if they aren't available they aren't available and no E-bike company is building their own battery cells.  Or what if there is a shortage of raw materials to make said battery cells, what now?  (This is a purely hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point, I have no idea why production is behind)  Anton is a smart guy with a very capable staff around him, the fact that you think whatever is holding up production is some sort of trivial issue is honestly a little bit presumptuous, if it was that easy they would have figured it out by now.

You know as well as I do as a manufacturer of a product you build in your lead times on every single item needed to manufacture your product. It's business 101. But to circle back around the bigger question is why they are asking for payment in full but not delivering when they say they will?

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9/2/2023 7:30am
I finally got some of those KTM parts I ordered and PAID in full for from KTM.  I paid back in October or so , got...

I finally got some of those KTM parts I ordered and PAID in full for from KTM.  I paid back in October or so , got them in last week.  Since I ordered them the prices went up, but I still got the items  at the price I paid almost a year ago!  I think its not a great look for either to be doing what they are doing. I wonder how many demo Vargs are out there?  

If Stark is doing something shady with customers funds  .What is the conspiracy behind KTM selling bikes built with the parts that people have  had backordered for close to a year, or longer? Is KTM in trouble? Do they just want to sell bikes and build hype for new sales and not care about the people who have a bike sitting they can not ride? 

 

I'm not sure what I would be more mad about. Buying a bike that was late and seeing the demo bikes showing up, or buying a bike that broke and is sitting because it needs the parts that are on the bikes that are showing up in large numbers?  Both people are paying payments or have paid in full and are unable to ride their bikes. And keep having ETA's pushed back. It sucks for both , It might be a sign of trouble, or might not be . Pushing back deliveries of bikes is one thing, but after a customer has paid, I thought that meant they had the bike ready to build. and by now would have an idea of how long that will take. Hope both companies get stuff figured out soon.    

 

mattyhamz2 wrote:
Not a KTM guy so I had no clue about parts being on backorder for so long. What parts were back ordered? 10 months of backorder...

Not a KTM guy so I had no clue about parts being on backorder for so long. What parts were back ordered? 10 months of backorder is pretty bad. Aftermarket parts slightly more understandable, but not OEM.

ROCKNDAWG wrote:
They have a shortage of a bunch of stuff, mostly when they have pistons exploding and barrels cracking. With all the piston failures I want to...

They have a shortage of a bunch of stuff, mostly when they have pistons exploding and barrels cracking. With all the piston failures I want to replace my stock junk piston which supposedly hits the crank with something else. But I can't  even find the stupid needed little stuff like base gaskets and head O-rings to rebuild it. Pretty much every ride, I wonder if I'm going to make it back or the motor is going to explode.

That’s pretty bad.
 

Does that include Athena, ProX, Cometic and others or just OEM for the gaskets and pistons? I’m huge on OEM parts for most things, but I wouldn’t hesitate to use Cometic, ProX or Athena gaskets, pistons and a few other things like that. 

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9/2/2023 7:35am
sandman768 wrote:

Yamaha yz250 2 stroke rings are on back order…. Can I get an amen?

RockyMountain has full OEM A, B, C and D top end kits including rings in stock right now. 

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The Shop

RACERX69
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9/2/2023 7:56am
avidchimp wrote:
Because they are kicking a can down the road. I love the idea and concept of the bike, but they are blowing smoke and mirrors on...

Because they are kicking a can down the road. I love the idea and concept of the bike, but they are blowing smoke and mirrors on the delivery of bikes paid in full. They don't have the resources to fulfill what has been ordered and paid for without piggybacking the costs they have already incurred into more orders.

Sounds like a Madoff type investment model. Everything rolls along fine until the money(sales) slows down or stops coming in. Shocked

 

gettyimages-93112680-612x612 0.jpg?VersionId=EuC0vOCmW21

 

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NSP139
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9/2/2023 8:19am
mattyhamz2 wrote:
Not a KTM guy so I had no clue about parts being on backorder for so long. What parts were back ordered? 10 months of backorder...

Not a KTM guy so I had no clue about parts being on backorder for so long. What parts were back ordered? 10 months of backorder is pretty bad. Aftermarket parts slightly more understandable, but not OEM.

ROCKNDAWG wrote:
They have a shortage of a bunch of stuff, mostly when they have pistons exploding and barrels cracking. With all the piston failures I want to...

They have a shortage of a bunch of stuff, mostly when they have pistons exploding and barrels cracking. With all the piston failures I want to replace my stock junk piston which supposedly hits the crank with something else. But I can't  even find the stupid needed little stuff like base gaskets and head O-rings to rebuild it. Pretty much every ride, I wonder if I'm going to make it back or the motor is going to explode.

mattyhamz2 wrote:
That’s pretty bad.   Does that include Athena, ProX, Cometic and others or just OEM for the gaskets and pistons? I’m huge on OEM parts for...

That’s pretty bad.
 

Does that include Athena, ProX, Cometic and others or just OEM for the gaskets and pistons? I’m huge on OEM parts for most things, but I wouldn’t hesitate to use Cometic, ProX or Athena gaskets, pistons and a few other things like that. 

I would check out wossner very high quality Pistons in stock for the 300!

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TahoeVetMX
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9/2/2023 8:42am

How did a thread about Stark E Bikes end up talking about ordering piston kits?  lol

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9/2/2023 8:44am
TahoeVetMX wrote:

How did a thread about Stark E Bikes end up talking about ordering piston kits?  lol

It went from bikes not being delivered to KTM not having parts but releasing new bikes to Yamaha not having rings and me trying to help those guys. My bad Tahoe!

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NSP139
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9/2/2023 8:47am
TahoeVetMX wrote:

How did a thread about Stark E Bikes end up talking about ordering piston kits?  lol

Attention span on vital is not it's strong suit probably too many concussions LOL

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TahoeVetMX
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9/2/2023 8:50am

After my talks with a few people now it is clear that Stark has not been making deliveries based upon order date or payments.  Some people are getting the bikes sooner than others who ordered or paid prior.   My guess is that most of this is due to Stark wanting to help shops sell bikes and get into the business.  So, because I requested to have my bike shipped directly to my house, I got put back on the list even though I paid in late June.  One shop I spoke to said they did not even sign a deal with Stark until the spring and yet they got bikes already.  It seems to me Stark needs to be more transparent with their intentions as most of us were under the impression that we would get our bikes based upon our order date and our payment date.  

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sandman768
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9/2/2023 8:53am

Glad I could derail this thread with some 2 stroke stupidity… 

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8500rpm
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9/2/2023 9:01am

Maybe apply for a job Wink

 

Screenshot 2023-09-02 at 17.55.37

lumpy790
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9/2/2023 9:10am

Without knowing what the exact dealer contract involves to become a dealer it would not surprise me if in the contract negotiations dealers could place and order for X number of display/test ride bikes for customers to ride creating interest in buying one prior to dealers receiving the retail bikes for retail sales. 

Its very complicated but New businesses all have to create demand for a product and their own Supply chain for delivering the goods to customers internationally. Every dirt bike manufacturer has been there at one time.

WarrenMX
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9/2/2023 9:43am
TahoeVetMX wrote:
After my talks with a few people now it is clear that Stark has not been making deliveries based upon order date or payments.  Some people...

After my talks with a few people now it is clear that Stark has not been making deliveries based upon order date or payments.  Some people are getting the bikes sooner than others who ordered or paid prior.   My guess is that most of this is due to Stark wanting to help shops sell bikes and get into the business.  So, because I requested to have my bike shipped directly to my house, I got put back on the list even though I paid in late June.  One shop I spoke to said they did not even sign a deal with Stark until the spring and yet they got bikes already.  It seems to me Stark needs to be more transparent with their intentions as most of us were under the impression that we would get our bikes based upon our order date and our payment date.  

That's a bummer. 

JM485
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9/2/2023 9:47am
TahoeVetMX wrote:
After my talks with a few people now it is clear that Stark has not been making deliveries based upon order date or payments.  Some people...

After my talks with a few people now it is clear that Stark has not been making deliveries based upon order date or payments.  Some people are getting the bikes sooner than others who ordered or paid prior.   My guess is that most of this is due to Stark wanting to help shops sell bikes and get into the business.  So, because I requested to have my bike shipped directly to my house, I got put back on the list even though I paid in late June.  One shop I spoke to said they did not even sign a deal with Stark until the spring and yet they got bikes already.  It seems to me Stark needs to be more transparent with their intentions as most of us were under the impression that we would get our bikes based upon our order date and our payment date.  

Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at dealers for sale until all pre-orders have been met, but maybe that’s changed.  If so that’s a little messed up for all of us that pre-ordered. 

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JM485
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9/2/2023 9:55am
avidchimp wrote:
You know as well as I do as a manufacturer of a product you build in your lead times on every single item needed to manufacture...

You know as well as I do as a manufacturer of a product you build in your lead times on every single item needed to manufacture your product. It's business 101. But to circle back around the bigger question is why they are asking for payment in full but not delivering when they say they will?

Ya of course, in a perfect world you would do just that, but for anyone living in the real world the past few years it’s been anything but that!  Unless you are a perfectly vertically integrated business you have been effected by this, and we can debate the causes all day long but the bottom line is everyone has been in the same boat, that’s an undeniable fact.  Stark produces a highly complex product and requires inputs from many different suppliers of finished parts, this isn’t a simple business with only a handful of small suppliers insulated from global supply disruptions, it’s a very complex web of suppliers, suppliers for those suppliers, and maybe even suppliers for the supplier’s suppliers.  
 

As for why they’re asking for payment before delivery, neither you nor I have any idea or ability to prove it one way or another so it’s pointless to debate it.  I personally don’t believe that they are using new order funds to build bikes for previous orders, but I have no way to prove that just like you have no way to prove that they are.  

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WarrenMX
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9/2/2023 10:00am
JM485 wrote:
Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at...

Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at dealers for sale until all pre-orders have been met, but maybe that’s changed.  If so that’s a little messed up for all of us that pre-ordered. 

They are back ordered for the next 2 years, why would they waste bikes on demo units for dealers, when the customers at these dealers won't even be able to buy the bikes? 

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TahoeVetMX
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9/2/2023 10:01am
JM485 wrote:
Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at...

Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at dealers for sale until all pre-orders have been met, but maybe that’s changed.  If so that’s a little messed up for all of us that pre-ordered. 

They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had gotten your bike in July, and I am still waiting.   Yes, I am sure dealers have some negotiating power but my point to Stark is to be transparent.   If you really want the dealers to get business transactions, then just call me and say we want your new bike to be delivered to a local dealer.   I am flexible and understanding to a point.   To me this is easy, post a list or when you put in a deposit up give a position number.  Then hold to it as best possible based upon payment completion. 

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TahoeVetMX
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9/2/2023 10:04am
JM485 wrote:
Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at...

Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at dealers for sale until all pre-orders have been met, but maybe that’s changed.  If so that’s a little messed up for all of us that pre-ordered. 

WarrenMX wrote:
They are back ordered for the next 2 years, why would they waste bikes on demo units for dealers, when the customers at these dealers won't...

They are back ordered for the next 2 years, why would they waste bikes on demo units for dealers, when the customers at these dealers won't even be able to buy the bikes? 

Valid point!   I think they are more worried about going public or investment money than filling their pre-orders.  We all know if you go into a dealership and buy a bike and they say "It will be 1.5 years" the buyer will walk right?   That means that Stark would most likely fill those orders before some of the pre-orders because they do not want to lose the relationship with the dealer.

Broseph
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9/2/2023 11:10am
JM485 wrote:
Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at...

Are you sure they’re providing dealers bikes to sell currently, not just demo units?  As far as I was aware there would not be bikes at dealers for sale until all pre-orders have been met, but maybe that’s changed.  If so that’s a little messed up for all of us that pre-ordered. 

TahoeVetMX wrote:
They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had...

They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had gotten your bike in July, and I am still waiting.   Yes, I am sure dealers have some negotiating power but my point to Stark is to be transparent.   If you really want the dealers to get business transactions, then just call me and say we want your new bike to be delivered to a local dealer.   I am flexible and understanding to a point.   To me this is easy, post a list or when you put in a deposit up give a position number.  Then hold to it as best possible based upon payment completion. 

If only you had a YouTube channel and “influencer” status, you’d already have a Stark or two and a free vacation to Spain!

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9/2/2023 11:35am
avidchimp wrote:
You know as well as I do as a manufacturer of a product you build in your lead times on every single item needed to manufacture...

You know as well as I do as a manufacturer of a product you build in your lead times on every single item needed to manufacture your product. It's business 101. But to circle back around the bigger question is why they are asking for payment in full but not delivering when they say they will?

Mr. AC,

Have to disagree with you on this one. This last few years have been challenging to say the least for things you rely on vendors from. I can tell you what I have seen. Just 2 examples, bonding glue from 3M with a 5 month lead time that used to be, and is now again readily available. Locktite, that was readily available, vendor had a 9 month lead time. 😳 I could go on with many more things but you should get the picture. And all these things you don't find out till you're ready to order.

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lumpy790
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9/2/2023 11:42am

USA Supply chain has greatly affected my products in both time by several months plus HUGE price increases!

MxAddic
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9/2/2023 11:51am
Scott920 wrote:
Yes. There was a brand new at our local track in Bellingham WA last night. Local vet B rider, picked it up at dealer in Lynwood...

Yes. There was a brand new at our local track in Bellingham WA last night. Local vet B rider, picked it up at dealer in Lynwood yesterday morning and raced it last night. He had no time to figure out any of the settings, just unloaded it, hit practice then raced it for 3 moto's. By the 2nd moto he had it looking pretty good. This rider is not an influencer, pro or celebrity, he's a 50+ year old normal local dude who races MX and off road normally on a KTM 2 stroke, (which he raced his 4th moto with last night). 

 

Must not have been an AMA track. Now we need two bikes to finish a race.

If there are 18,000 in waiting I want to know who thinks they can deliver that many at 1 time.  If they are coming as slow as it looks it could be 2 years.

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MxAddic
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9/2/2023 12:07pm
WarrenMX wrote:
They are back ordered for the next 2 years, why would they waste bikes on demo units for dealers, when the customers at these dealers won't...

They are back ordered for the next 2 years, why would they waste bikes on demo units for dealers, when the customers at these dealers won't even be able to buy the bikes? 

So they can take more back orders of coarse.

rmgsxr
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9/2/2023 12:14pm
TahoeVetMX wrote:
They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had...

They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had gotten your bike in July, and I am still waiting.   Yes, I am sure dealers have some negotiating power but my point to Stark is to be transparent.   If you really want the dealers to get business transactions, then just call me and say we want your new bike to be delivered to a local dealer.   I am flexible and understanding to a point.   To me this is easy, post a list or when you put in a deposit up give a position number.  Then hold to it as best possible based upon payment completion. 

One thing that was an issue and I don't know if it got resolved was how Stark was going to be able to sell a bike straight to an individual. Most states that is not allowed and they were having to work through each state to get that sorted out. I was told that Tesla is the only company that can currently sell that way. Stark was in a big hurry to set up dealers because those preorders were going to have to go through a dealership. 

9/2/2023 12:34pm

I just thought of a  good reason for delivering demo bikes to dealers before delivering large amounts of the preorders.

Training the Service dept on real bikes. Giving them a real bike to be able to work on and get to know the bike. Working on it in their shops with their tools, etc. It could be dealer training as much as it being for dealers to allow demo rides. That might make sense in a way. I could be totally wrong too.But it makes sense to want to have dealers be familiar with working on the bikes so if somebody needs help with their Varg , the dealer is not  practicing on customers bikes.   

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TahoeVetMX
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9/2/2023 1:14pm
TahoeVetMX wrote:
They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had...

They are demo bikes and delivery bikes.  However, if you ordered a bike after I did and paid after I did then you should not had gotten your bike in July, and I am still waiting.   Yes, I am sure dealers have some negotiating power but my point to Stark is to be transparent.   If you really want the dealers to get business transactions, then just call me and say we want your new bike to be delivered to a local dealer.   I am flexible and understanding to a point.   To me this is easy, post a list or when you put in a deposit up give a position number.  Then hold to it as best possible based upon payment completion. 

rmgsxr wrote:
One thing that was an issue and I don't know if it got resolved was how Stark was going to be able to sell a bike...

One thing that was an issue and I don't know if it got resolved was how Stark was going to be able to sell a bike straight to an individual. Most states that is not allowed and they were having to work through each state to get that sorted out. I was told that Tesla is the only company that can currently sell that way. Stark was in a big hurry to set up dealers because those preorders were going to have to go through a dealership. 

Yes, I am not sure about that issue either, but they did charge me sales tax.   However, if this is an issue they should had told me and let me have a dealer deliver it.  

1
TahoeVetMX
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9/2/2023 1:15pm
I just thought of a  good reason for delivering demo bikes to dealers before delivering large amounts of the preorders. Training the Service dept on real...

I just thought of a  good reason for delivering demo bikes to dealers before delivering large amounts of the preorders.

Training the Service dept on real bikes. Giving them a real bike to be able to work on and get to know the bike. Working on it in their shops with their tools, etc. It could be dealer training as much as it being for dealers to allow demo rides. That might make sense in a way. I could be totally wrong too.But it makes sense to want to have dealers be familiar with working on the bikes so if somebody needs help with their Varg , the dealer is not  practicing on customers bikes.   

Yes, I can see that point of view.   However, they should tell everyone they are doing this and be transparent about it.  I don't think most of us mind if people are being honest with us.   

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RACING
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9/2/2023 1:39pm
TahoeVetMX wrote:

How did a thread about Stark E Bikes end up talking about ordering piston kits?  lol

It's called a counter-fire.

Tongue

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RACING
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9/2/2023 1:43pm
TahoeVetMX wrote:
Valid point!   I think they are more worried about going public or investment money than filling their pre-orders.  We all know if you go into a...

Valid point!   I think they are more worried about going public or investment money than filling their pre-orders.  We all know if you go into a dealership and buy a bike and they say "It will be 1.5 years" the buyer will walk right?   That means that Stark would most likely fill those orders before some of the pre-orders because they do not want to lose the relationship with the dealer.

Great way to reward the very first people to put their trust in your company and product.

Dry

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