Big strong and/or Tall guys have no place in pro MX/SX these days

mx317
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12/26/2009 7:10am
sixdayguy wrote:
I want to add, Who are the smoothest riders? Bailey, Lechien, Windham, D.V. Does not smoother equal less energy? The only smooth short rider I can...
I want to add, Who are the smoothest riders? Bailey, Lechien, Windham, D.V. Does not smoother equal less energy? The only smooth short rider I can think of is DeCoster. All the great small riders were bulldogs, Ward, Charmichael, Hannah. I think to make things equal we need to find a way to make all the riders have equal desire to win! Then things will be interesting!
Moto112 wrote:
You just sold my point. Smooth (tall guy) does not always equel less energy, less that ragged yes but, less than the smaller guys who looks...
You just sold my point. Smooth (tall guy) does not always equel less energy, less that ragged yes but, less than the smaller guys who looks like a billdog no, the bull dog is sitll using less energy.

Give them all equel desire.; Do that by giving them all a fair shot at winning starting with the start then the turns then getting from turn to turn then making sure they do not wear out becasue of some height difference, or weight disadvantage (to the small guys) and finally let determination give them the rest.

How many guys think they are going to win a MX/SX usually 1 , sometimes 2, a few times in history 3 or 4, the racers generally know who is going to win. The rest have a postioin in mind that they want and it aint 1st.

Change that by letting them know they have as good an opportunity as the next guy, if hey hang it out, no matter what size or wieght or anyhing else either of them might be.

If you think its that way now, then you live in coo coo land or never raced and haven't a clue land and have watched too much WWF.
I'm a big guy so I guess I'll have to quit now. Thanks a lot moto112! On the other hand, he could be a stupid noob that doesn't have a clue and I could still ride. I'll go with the stupid noob.
typ2vw159
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12/26/2009 8:35am
lostboy819 wrote:
This has got to be the most stupid post I have ever read. and I quote "The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to...
This has got to be the most stupid post I have ever read. and I quote "The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight! " pure stupidity at its best.

I just have one question, Why did you change your name from DannyDolan to moto112 ?
stuipid peeps
txmxer
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12/26/2009 8:37am
Double H wrote:
Ok, i've read enough of this! 1st its not Horse racing! 2nd yes, both have there pros and cons, but at the end of the day...
Ok, i've read enough of this!
1st its not Horse racing!
2nd yes, both have there pros and cons, but at the end of the day, the guy with the biggest heart will prevail. You state RC only had a perfect season due to his holeshots. What a load of crap! The guy simply put more into it then anyone else on the track. As another guy mentioned, technique and reaction time will help you more off the start then your size, nothing like a bit of extra weight over that tire to help it hook up!
3rd, Seen any Japanese over 6ft? didnt think so...

Now i do see valid points, but i also dont think theres much in, yes you can argue the centre of gravity point, and being bigger creates more force so when you hit the ground ect, but im a bigger framed rider (height wise not weight) and i think the biggest downer is not the height as such, its the leg length and peg to seat ratio (affecting yes, the centre of gravity and being able to grip the bike better) but as CamP says, and i agree, its not such a bad thing on rough tracks! And i also agree with the pant length comment!
Just my 2 cents...
skipped to the end, but I agree with this.

It is what it is. Pros and cons for both. I do think there is an "ideal" range, but, when it's all said and done, it's about the rider.

On injuries, Cam is right about flexibility. There are other factors, conditioning being critical as well. Maybe height does have a few disadvantages when it comes to injury, but I'd say that genetics plays a much bigger roll.
jeffro503
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12/26/2009 10:32am
I can't believe i actually had a good laugh and got a bad head ache all in one thread. Moto112 , you say some pretty off-the-wall crazy shit and a lot of it doesn't make any sense.

One thing you should remember is , it's not how tall or short you are in this sport , it's the will to win or do the best you can. There are waaayyyy to many tall guys who made it big and did very well.

I'm not going to even try and debate this because i "know" i'm right. Being 6' 1" , i never had a hard time moving around on the bike. I got beat by shorter and taller riders , it really just depended on who was there and who i was racing against. I raced in and out of the Pro / Int stuff for 15 years , so i would think i have had some experience in the matter.

The Shop

Big Lenny
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12/26/2009 10:41am Edited Date/Time 12/26/2009 10:44am
CamP wrote:
Racing well is mostly mental. If you think you are at a disadvantage because you are tall, you go to the line already defeated.
Moto112 wrote:
I agree, but, you big guys are not getting a fair chance to be the next "Ricky Charmichael" like the littel guys are. I'm just wanting...
I agree, but, you big guys are not getting a fair chance to be the next "Ricky Charmichael" like the littel guys are. I'm just wanting to add some parity to make it more fair.
How many guy's here are even at that level or have been?, be thankful with what you got and are able to ride at all, If RC was in the NBA he'd be sitting on the bench next to the towels and Gatorade...Moto112 quit smokin' that shit...
Cygnus
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12/26/2009 10:46am
Big Lenny wrote:
How many guy's here are even at that level or have been?, be thankful with what you got and are able to ride at all, If...
How many guy's here are even at that level or have been?, be thankful with what you got and are able to ride at all, If RC was in the NBA he'd be sitting on the bench next to the towels and Gatorade...Moto112 quit smokin' that shit...
I've smoked a lot, but never got that high.
Alex
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12/26/2009 10:50am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
I think just about half the top guys in MX1 were over 6 foot -


Strijbos

Vuillemin

Ramon

DeReuver

Philippaerts

Pourcel

Mackenzie

De Dyker

Leok (A)



theres plenty like Pichon, Aranda, Coppins, Leok etc just a fraction under too. Id say little guys like Cairoli and Nagl are more the exception.
Big Lenny
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12/26/2009 11:02am
Big Lenny wrote:
How many guy's here are even at that level or have been?, be thankful with what you got and are able to ride at all, If...
How many guy's here are even at that level or have been?, be thankful with what you got and are able to ride at all, If RC was in the NBA he'd be sitting on the bench next to the towels and Gatorade...Moto112 quit smokin' that shit...
Cygnus wrote:
I've smoked a lot, but never got that high.
Dude's higher than fat Charles' ass...
mccread
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12/26/2009 11:14am
Pastrana, Everts were tall too RJ and BAiley beat ward and they were taller. Thorpe is 6 foot. Dungey and pourcel are not small guys either, neither is Rattary.

I do think tall riders may be susceptable to injuries in some cases due to having less muscle but it doesn't matter what height you are it is the rider skill that matter, being small has advantages and disadvantages as does being tall.
motomike894
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12/26/2009 11:18am
It really donw matter either way and on a side note I am a big guy weight wise, and have been for most my life, even racing pro for a long time that way I have gone up and down in weight but I can still smoke most anyone locally right after I just ate at the china buffet what it really boils down to is natural talent and skill on the bike, there is some funny shit said here on this post though!!!!!!!
nytsmaC
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12/26/2009 11:52am
I'm 6'7 and when I was in my best racing shape, I was about 270lbs. I'd have to agree that overall, it's a disadvantage. It's definitely easier to finesse the bike and let it work underneath you, but like others said, gripping with your knees? I've never been able to do that. A taller guy definitely expends more energy wrestling the bike beneath him over a full moto. A 450 doesn't feel overpowered to me, I can do anything on the track the smaller guys can but maybe use a slightly different technique to get it done.

However, these ideas of 'fixing' the disdavantage are silly. It is what it is. I have as much fun on the track as the 5'7 guy I'm racing against, that's all that really matters. I don't mind having to maybe work harder than the other guy to beat him.
Toste
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Fantasy
12/26/2009 12:07pm
I don't think it's really necessary to modify the rules in this case. If there is an advantage to being small in MX/SX, it is probably only very slight. And as others have pointed out, there are often disadvantages to it in certain situations.

I think part of the reason you don't see so many big/strong/tall riders in the sport is that those guys have many other sporting options. MX is one of very sports where being small isn't a huge disadvantage, which may give little guys more incentive to gravitate toward it 100%.
Thelen20
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12/26/2009 12:19pm
6'1'', 185 lbs and loving it

i crash like a rubber ball!
ridge
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12/26/2009 12:25pm
So moto112, what's your name and what class do you race? Oh yeah, how old are you?

My guesses:
I have no idea what your name is but Rick Mellon is my best guess.

You are 16 or 17.

You don't race. If you do, you probably get beat by short guys constantly. Because of your upbringing, nothing is ever your fault, so you simply make excuses for your failures.

I'm sure, if you were shorter, you woulda and coulda been the GOAT.
Big Lenny
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12/26/2009 12:27pm
ridge wrote:
So moto112, what's your name and what class do you race? Oh yeah, how old are you? My guesses: I have no idea what your name...
So moto112, what's your name and what class do you race? Oh yeah, how old are you?

My guesses:
I have no idea what your name is but Rick Mellon is my best guess.

You are 16 or 17.

You don't race. If you do, you probably get beat by short guys constantly. Because of your upbringing, nothing is ever your fault, so you simply make excuses for your failures.

I'm sure, if you were shorter, you woulda and coulda been the GOAT.
Laughing
jeffro503
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12/26/2009 12:52pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
This is gonna be good (puts popcorn in microwave, opens beer)
MOTO112 qoute

"Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the short people.


I want to see anyone that wants to race to be able to have the same mid corner speed and the same corner to corner speed, and right now that ain't the case. The big boys transfer so much weight (that is higher up on their bodies) from the front of the bike to the rear that they are really not riding in the same class with the same advantages as the mighty mites. If we had rules that created an equal playing field I think you'd see different people winning regularly.


Now I'm only just about 1/2" over 6' and about 185 (when trained down to fighting weight), and I fit the current bikes just fine, so don't say I'm suggesting this because I'm one of the big guys but, as a current pro I would still have some disadvantage against the smaller guys. I think Windham and Millsaps must both be phenoms based on the disadvantage that I know they have, even though neither is my favorite rider. That throttle pinning radical kid Josh Grant is my favorite and he fits the bike perfectly.


When I was young, in pro MX we had the 500 class and it was where all the 6'+ boys rode, some of them were even 6' 3"+ and a few over 220 lbs., example; John Finkelday, Alan King, etc. Back then, and now, the little guys could lift weights and train to put on body weight, where the big guys had to stay too skinny and that really hurt them when they crashed. Even back then the little guys had the start advantage and after about 1985 the suspension rebound got more controllable and the forks ridged enough to negate any real strength and larger body that was needed. As soon as Jeff Ward started winning on a 250 (1984 & 1985) it was clear that big bodies were a big handicap and the days of the big guys were all but over. .


Its even worse now! Look at career longevity vs height in MX/SX and you will see exactly what I mean! The tall guys don't last long, with just a few exceptions (Larry ward)! Look at success vs height, there is a even bigger disparity there. Travis Pastrana is a perfect example, the kid was too big to have been on 125's when he was on 125's and still he won. He went over the bars a few times too many, and his skinny body broke instead of rolling like Charmichaels always seemed to do, and it ended his seasons and eventually his career early. Travis needed bigger bikes, with a longer wheelbase to minimize the weight transfer, and keep him from going over the bars, and he needed to get stronger (and weigh more) so he could stay together after a big crash.


Watch the video of Windham beating Charmichael at the 2001 Washougal national. Windhams bars are over the front fender and he looks about a foot too tall to be on the bike. He was leaning forward over the front fender like a ski jumper just to get down the straights. It was a miracle win. He got to the 4-stoke asap and he knew he had to, to stay competitive. It helped until everyone esle got a big thumper also.


The short guys have such an advantage on the start, at most of the races they are at the front and it has to change. Charmichael's 24-moto win steak, was due to hotshots and acceleration, both are due to his combined bike and rider weight being way low. Stewarts streak was due to his outright speed but, both Sewart and Charmichael are short small guys that always start at the front, even if they gate badly, there is no bigger advantage.


The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight!


I want to see the big guys fit their bikes and have the same acceleration and chance to get the hole shot, and just be able to pin it and hang on like the little guys do, and not have to fight the weight transfer from corner to corner and everywhere else.


I have been thinking that we need a second set of bike rules for the larger riders. How about a bike that the little guys are too small to ride well with 23" front wheel and 21" rear. Those larger wheels would lift the bike 1" and necessitate raising the suspension above the wheels another 1". It would also create more mass by increasing the weight of the wheels and that would have to be overcome by the riders strength. Still, how would we prevent the "Charmichael mods" of shrinking the sub frame, lowering the travel and still winning just because he's weighs 100#'s less? We have to have some kind of bike + rider combined wight minimum just like in every other form of motor sport.


So what do you guys think will work and even the field, more displacement, larger wheels, what do the big guys need to be able to have the same speed?




Ridge....I "think" he is saying he "is or "was" a pro.......he's also mentioning that he trains in MMA i take , since he felt it obvious to post his "fighting weight" at 185. Trains in MMA , like just about every other guy out there does now days....they are all going to be the next Chuck Liddel......just ask them. "


shaner708
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12/26/2009 1:37pm
According to 112's view on this a 50 pound kid on a 110 would have the best power to weight ratio and lap every one 30 times per moto...
Kinetic1
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12/26/2009 2:17pm
I go to the line defeeted every time but I've had a pretty good run lately. lol


ROFLAO!

Thanks Ridge, I needed that today.
Moto112
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12/26/2009 2:56pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
No MMA, you are lousy detectives, and must not train to ride. The big difference between a real competitor and a rider is training and knowing your body. When I'm in shape to ride for 40 or 30 min +2 laps at full speed with no drop off in lap time, I would weigh about 185. When I rode I only weighted about 160 at 6'. I was perfect for the bikes then and now. I said that. I'm 45 years old now, and if you guys had been around as long as I have you'd see the trends and its for the middle sized guys to win, they have an significant advantage. The farther away from about 5'9" the more you have to out work your competition. If everyone is giving 100% then body type starts to win the race, if you can't understand that then you are too stupid to ever be a pro and this is not your topic anyway.

Its not a fair playing field. Yes, there are exceptions and outdoors favors a slightly taller rider, actually it favors longer legs, but not too long and not a big or long upper body.

I don't want to ruin the sport for anyone, I love this sport, always have, I just want to see more big guys, and midgets riding and for them to be on equal equipment for their body. I hate that ours sport is dominated by average guys. I hear it all the time from the people that don't know how hard is is to hang on to that bike for any length of time, they think MX is a true motorsport where the bike wins and you just hang on, and the small guys winning all the time reinforces their observations. Its not that the small guys have an advantage, its that the bigger guys loose because they weigh too much and the CG is too high for the current bikes. Mostly its the physics of the higher CG that hurts the big guys. Its all physics and they suit the middle and not the extremes, the bike rules should be more flexible to suit the different body types.

There was a guy once who was a midget, a real midget not like you guys that are just too short, and he had a special dispensation from the NMA to race 50's in an adult 50 class. That guy was a great rider, and there are others out there that are over 6'6" and under 5'5" that also could be pros if they could fit the bike and have a fair shot with the physics.

Why ask a guy that gives his life to a sport to play with a disadvantage when we can make it fair for anyone, easily. If you guys would contribute and stop talking shit and whining and trying to make me into an MMA fighter. dumbass'.

If you guys will start at the beginning and read all the comments you'll see that this is a valid point, not like the point on your heads, and its not about you local riders that are never going to be pro, its about getting any pro, no matter how short small or big and tall, the tools (bike) that allows him to deal with the physics of his challenge to the same degree that the middle sized guys have.

Ever seen a supper successful 6' 8" 240Lb guy that has worked his whole life to ride MX? You won't, because he will loose early as an amateur and realize that he needs to go to another sport quickly, if he wants to be a successful athlete.

Oh, and by the way, you are all banned permanently from any AMA and GNC competition for life, as soon as I get your names, Ha Ha???
Big Lenny
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12/26/2009 3:10pm
Is this why taller bars and seat foam was invented?...
CamP
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12/26/2009 3:10pm
As mentioned by someone else, the reason you don't seen any 6'-8" mx'ers is because they spend all their time on the basketball court. For a good pro to still be competitive I think a lean 6'-4" is about the limit. He'll be at an advantage in the whoops and rough outdoor stuff, and he'll give some of it back in the real tight stuff. The injuries that he'll be more at risk of are ACL's because of his longer tib/fib, it seems like everyone suffers from ACL's anyway.
LouDog
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12/26/2009 3:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
I new when i saw this post my son would be mentioned, Shaner 708 thanks for the kind words and sticking up for my kid, as for Moto112 you crack me up yes there are alot of smaller guys racing but there has been quite a few BIG guys that have done well over the years. Alot of anything you do in life comes from how much you want it and my son wants it alot. At the Glen helen national my son got 9th overall at the first race of the year and with every pro there pretty good for a kid that has not raced his whole life and moved up to Pro after Lorettas 08. Eight months as a Pro i think thats pretty good for a BIG guy.
Any ways just had to throw out a couple of facts no big deal and not looking for a pissing contest. Thanks Louie Peick
FIREfish148
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12/26/2009 3:21pm
CamP wrote:
As mentioned by someone else, the reason you don't seen any 6'-8" mx'ers is because they spend all their time on the basketball court. For a...
As mentioned by someone else, the reason you don't seen any 6'-8" mx'ers is because they spend all their time on the basketball court. For a good pro to still be competitive I think a lean 6'-4" is about the limit. He'll be at an advantage in the whoops and rough outdoor stuff, and he'll give some of it back in the real tight stuff. The injuries that he'll be more at risk of are ACL's because of his longer tib/fib, it seems like everyone suffers from ACL's anyway.
I used to go trail riding w/ my dad and his friend who was 6'6'' and this dude was an amazing trail rider. Even in the most technical stuff i couldnt match his skill and i had been racing moto for 8 years. Never saw him on a moto track but im sure he would rip up one of those too.
Speaking of tall off road riders how big is that king guy?
Moto112
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12/26/2009 4:16pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
LouDog wrote:
I new when i saw this post my son would be mentioned, Shaner 708 thanks for the kind words and sticking up for my kid, as...
I new when i saw this post my son would be mentioned, Shaner 708 thanks for the kind words and sticking up for my kid, as for Moto112 you crack me up yes there are alot of smaller guys racing but there has been quite a few BIG guys that have done well over the years. Alot of anything you do in life comes from how much you want it and my son wants it alot. At the Glen helen national my son got 9th overall at the first race of the year and with every pro there pretty good for a kid that has not raced his whole life and moved up to Pro after Lorettas 08. Eight months as a Pro i think thats pretty good for a BIG guy.
Any ways just had to throw out a couple of facts no big deal and not looking for a pissing contest. Thanks Louie Peick
Mr Peick, I sincerely hope that the few thinkers in the MX community can do something to make the playing field a little more fair for the big guys like your son. If he's finishing 9th in an AMA pro national then he's a truly great rider and at his height and weight he's got to be an incredible aerobic athlete as well. If he were more of average size he would probably be in the top 5 easily and things would already be different for you both.

MX results ( as opposed to SX results) adds very little to a young riders worth these days to the US factories, unless the team thinks he can win the series at some point, not just finish well but I'm sure you know that. If he's an outdoor guy think about Europe, his size is not such a disadvantage over there. Here, I would try to feature him at tracks where the short guys have trouble and play to your strengths, hype is everything and youthful potential is always rewarded in this industry.

I truly wish he didn't have to be so much better than his competition to still finish behind inferior athletes with inferior riding abilities.

I am truly sorry that his name came up and he was personally mentioned as the big rider example, and I hope he will prove me wrong and turn that size into an advantage. I'd sure like to see that happen with him specifically!

I started this post for kids like your son. There disadvantage should have been corrected a long time ago, then we'd all know who Weston Peick was, he'd be the champ. Hopefully he will be the next champ even if nothing changes!

I wish you both the best.
Moto112
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12/26/2009 4:23pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
I just found Winston's myspace, he's only listed as 5'11", he's fine.

He just needs to be no more than about 185Lbs. and he can be the next "big thing". I thought you guys were suggesting tht he was 6'8" and 230 or something.

He fits the bike, he can win any race here at that height, just make him train.
DrSweden
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12/26/2009 4:25pm
People are hard on you Moto, but If you are talented you probably win despite length eh? But I get the impression a tall guy have disadvantages you mentioned. Corner speed and falling comes to my mind as well... But it's a no brainer to try to adjust that, and maybe there are other areas where long legs might be handy? I was thinking in whoops...
Kinetic1
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12/26/2009 4:32pm
45 years old and you don't have the ability to spell lose. Your arguments are not valid on that point alone.
Moto112
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12/26/2009 4:36pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
45 years old and you don't have the ability to spell lose. Your arguments are not valid on that point alone.
I'll work on my spelling if you'll work on your brain function, pin head.
Kinetic1
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12/26/2009 4:53pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:38pm
Here I thought I was a patriot! LOL

Your argument about low CG is valid but for the powers that be to make adjustments to the rules to compensate for it are about as asinine as the NBA giving short guys stilts to offset their height disadvantage.

BTW, Ryan Dungey kills your argument as does Christophe Pourcel. They were the two elite riders last year in the 250 class and they are both at or near 6' tall.
Moto112
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12/26/2009 5:14pm
Kinetic1 wrote:
Here I thought I was a patriot! LOL Your argument about low CG is valid but for the powers that be to make adjustments to the...
Here I thought I was a patriot! LOL

Your argument about low CG is valid but for the powers that be to make adjustments to the rules to compensate for it are about as asinine as the NBA giving short guys stilts to offset their height disadvantage.

BTW, Ryan Dungey kills your argument as does Christophe Pourcel. They were the two elite riders last year in the 250 class and they are both at or near 6' tall.
Don't you have something better to do?

You know, there is great porn on the net, you should check it out.

Do you know the difference between a factory 250 and the one that you try to ride, Bone-head? Those guys are also great riders and even greater athletes. They win even though they have a very slight disadvantage in weight or height, but not much. Their upper bodies are light, they don't have much CG problem, well Dungy has more than Pourcel.

Being 2" above or below average height is not going to make too much difference, and that is more than made up for by being on factory ($$$) equipment that blows up after 3 hours and is on the ragged edge making tons of power while it is alive.

There is a thing called "reading comprehension", it basically is the act of trying to understand what the words mean. You need to work on that. Average height is now 5'10.5" I belive I wrote that in a earlier post, that is only 1.5" under Dungey and Pourcel's height.

Do you often post with no point or comment or reason what so ever? Try the porn I suggested or drugs, either would wok for you.

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