Lappers and penalties

8/27/2023 12:32pm
Brad460 wrote:

At the end of the day, lappers are not to blame for Jett’s perfect season…

Didn’t mean to imply that but if it came off that way, my mistake. Just wanted to clarify the rule. 

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8/27/2023 12:36pm Edited Date/Time 8/27/2023 12:37pm

I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here 

 

edit: “When conditions allow, move out of the fast line. Once out of the fast line, hold your line; do not ride erratically and do not impede the faster rider’s progress. Riders disregarding the blue flag may be penalized at the discretion of Race Direction.”

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Ozy
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8/27/2023 12:37pm

Just an idea - thinking out loud - how about having a system in place that takes into account total points in the series and how many seconds a rider is behind the leader in the current race, and devise a way to flag a rider off the track if he's so far back he can't score any points. Thin the heard in each moto

I get they want a full gate for each moto . . . quite a few local pro's line up that don't have a chance of scoring a single point

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The Shop

8/27/2023 12:40pm
Ozy wrote:
Just an idea - thinking out loud - how about having a system in place that takes into account total points in the series and how...

Just an idea - thinking out loud - how about having a system in place that takes into account total points in the series and how many seconds a rider is behind the leader in the current race, and devise a way to flag a rider off the track if he's so far back he can't score any points. Thin the heard in each moto

I get they want a full gate for each moto . . . quite a few local pro's line up that don't have a chance of scoring a single point

I kept hearing the “if you get lapped twice, you should pull off” idea on some podcasts which sounds like pretty easy way to thin the field. 

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1
8/27/2023 12:41pm
I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here    edit: “When conditions...

I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here 

 

edit: “When conditions allow, move out of the fast line. Once out of the fast line, hold your line; do not ride erratically and do not impede the faster rider’s progress. Riders disregarding the blue flag may be penalized at the discretion of Race Direction.”

Thanks for this clarification. 

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8/27/2023 12:42pm
ando wrote:

As annoying as it is when they’re in the main line, the alternative is worse.  Having lappers moving all over the place would be disastrous.

MxAddic wrote:
Bro he was moving all over the track and staying on the gas in the racing line for way too long after he just got passed...

Bro he was moving all over the track and staying on the gas in the racing line for way too long after he just got passed by the leader. Much easier to get off the gas for a second or two. A lot safer than getting bonzied if you ask me. I am sure the ninnies won't agree.

Agreed, some of the posts in this thread make my head hurt.  1) Comparing the top 2 MX riders in the Lucas Oil Motocross championship to local track practice days is a ridiculous comparison.  2) No other lappers that I saw had issues getting the fuck out of the way yesterday in that second moto except the rookie Shelly.  Shelly cost Chase about 2 seconds when he was trying to push for one last charge into the last few laps of the last moto of the season.  Not implying Chase would have passed Jett, but he was trying and giving it his all to do so, and clearly Shelly got in the way holding up Chase.  Dude was riding like a spode at that point.  

 

If you are a lapper, stay out of the main race line and hold your line so the leaders can pass.  It's not that hard really.  

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Shred
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8/27/2023 12:43pm Edited Date/Time 8/27/2023 12:49pm

Shelly sees Jett go by.  Blue flags waiving at him and then when Shelly cuts him off in the left hander inside turn the flagger is literally waiving the blue flag right in Shelly’s face right before that turn.  Okay fine….now get the fuck out of the way.  Nope.   So what does Shelly do?  Stay in the RACE line for 3 turns including cutting from outside to the inside..thus NOT holding his line.  Get the fuck out of the way.  The AMA needs to do something about this.  Anyone here defending what Shelly did doesn’t know shit about racing and is an idiot.  We want the race up front to be good.  Not some dumb shit in 18th to ruin it.  Listen..no doubt Shelly would lap my ass pretty fast…but in this race he was riding like an ass that needs to be penalized.

btw…at the pace Chase was going and how that sounds coming up that fast there is no way he thought it was the guy in 19th…

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3
8/27/2023 12:47pm
Shred wrote:
Shelly sees Jett go by.  Blue flags waiving at him and then when Shelly cuts him off in the left hander inside turn the flagger is...

Shelly sees Jett go by.  Blue flags waiving at him and then when Shelly cuts him off in the left hander inside turn the flagger is literally waiving the blue flag right in Shelly’s face right before that turn.  Okay fine….now get the fuck out of the way.  Nope.   So what does Shelly do?  Stay in the RACE line for 3 turns including cutting from outside to the inside..thus NOT holding his line.  Get the fuck out of the way.  The AMA needs to do something about this.  Anyone here defending what Shelly did doesn’t know shit about racing and is an idiot.  We want the race up front to be good.  Not some dumb shit in 18th to ruin it.  Listen..no doubt Shelly would lap my ass pretty fast…but in this race he was riding like an ass that needs to be penalized.

btw…at the pace Chase was going and how that sounds coming up that fast there is no way he thought it was the guy in 19th…

That second turn where Shelly went inside and Chase almost runs into the back of him, then Chase is like “Ok, I’m done” and just goes off the track around him 😂

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SoCalMX70
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8/27/2023 12:48pm
Shred wrote:
Shelly sees Jett go by.  Blue flags waiving at him and then when Shelly cuts him off in the left hander inside turn the flagger is...

Shelly sees Jett go by.  Blue flags waiving at him and then when Shelly cuts him off in the left hander inside turn the flagger is literally waiving the blue flag right in Shelly’s face right before that turn.  Okay fine….now get the fuck out of the way.  Nope.   So what does Shelly do?  Stay in the RACE line for 3 turns including cutting from outside to the inside..thus NOT holding his line.  Get the fuck out of the way.  The AMA needs to do something about this.  Anyone here defending what Shelly did doesn’t know shit about racing and is an idiot.  We want the race up front to be good.  Not some dumb shit in 18th to ruin it.  Listen..no doubt Shelly would lap my ass pretty fast…but in this race he was riding like an ass that needs to be penalized.

btw…at the pace Chase was going and how that sounds coming up that fast there is no way he thought it was the guy in 19th…

Hear, hear!

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1
8/27/2023 12:54pm
Radical wrote:
I agree.  I think it's safer to just hold your line.  Changing your line abruptly to get out of the way could be dangerous. I hope...

I agree.  I think it's safer to just hold your line.  Changing your line abruptly to get out of the way could be dangerous.

I hope you healed up well! 

Poppanator wrote:
But it’s also possible to get out of the way without abruptly changing the line, but that will of course take some awareness of the situation...

But it’s also possible to get out of the way without abruptly changing the line, but that will of course take some awareness of the situation and surrounding.

Radical wrote:
I think that largely depends on how early they see the blue flags. They are in races themselves, and if the mainline is the fast line...

I think that largely depends on how early they see the blue flags. They are in races themselves, and if the mainline is the fast line, I'd want to use it as much as possible.  Lappers are moving obstacles, and in my opinion, add to the racing.  Part of being the best is the ability to navigate around them, anticipate where they're going, and use them to block your competitors.

And if Shelly had held Jett up instead of Chase thus allowing Chase to pass him essentially ruining the perfect season for Jett, he would have been crucified, as he deservingly should be. It's no different.  If you race, you know.  It's not that hard.  You know when a faster rider is coming.  Get out of the main race line, hold your line and allow them to pass.  

I would institute a rule that if a rider clearly and blatantly ignores 3 consecutive blue flags thus holding up the leaders by not moving out of the main race line, when any of the top 3 riders (i.e. podium riders) are in the process of passing the lapper, I would black flag that rider.  If a lapper knows that there is risk of them getting black flagged for not respecting the blue flags, they will start respecting the blue flags.  Problem solved.

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Shred
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8/27/2023 1:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/27/2023 1:13pm

Also…I have been critical of flaggers in the past because they are standing wwwaaayyyyy off the track sort of waiving the blue flag listlessly.

Not this time.  The flagger going in to the left hander when Shelly cuts off Chase could not have been doing a better job.  Leaning over the fence waiving it RIGHT IN SHELLY’s FACE!  No way Shelly could miss it.  No excuse.  Flagger did an excellent job!

AMA….please for the love of god…of the Motocross gods.  Take that point away from Shelly and start a blue flag probation.  If you see that same rider ignoring the blue flag again…1 race suspension.  The next  time….2 race suspension , and so on.

also Weege.  Stop making excuses for the lapped.   He was fucking wrong on how he handled it.  

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lumpy790
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8/27/2023 1:11pm

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

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Shred
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8/27/2023 1:18pm Edited Date/Time 8/27/2023 1:24pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

That is  wrong on a couple of levels.  First…the rule says hold your line.  He didn’t.   Second, when you take the momentum away from the guy it’s not easy sometimes to “easily go right past “.  My god…Chase and Jett had 50 seconds on AP in 3rd…and you’re implying Chase wasn’t going fast enough so it’s his fault.  Okay…This is why the AMA needs to penalize it.  To make people think twice about thinking like you do.

This is one time I wish Chase had handled it like Barcia would have.  Put his pecker in the dirt.

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1
8/27/2023 1:54pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

So, you tell your riders to ignore the rule in the rules book.  Noted.  Who are your riders?  Didn't seem to be an issue for the riders out there except for Shelly.  IIRC, Butron pulled completely off the track to get out of the way of Chase, and Butron was right in the mix for SMX points as was Hill, who also didn't have an issue getting TF out of the way.  

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MxAddic
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8/27/2023 2:06pm
I used to race locally but blue flags were never a thing. Always would hold my line if someone faster than me was coming up behind...

I used to race locally but blue flags were never a thing. Always would hold my line if someone faster than me was coming up behind but wasn’t sure if blue flags meant get out of the main line. 

I was speaking to the fellow you quoted. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

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1
8/27/2023 2:12pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know, that's probably not the best way to market your product.

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2
8/27/2023 2:16pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

TbonesPop wrote:
Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know...

Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know, that's probably not the best way to market your product.

What’s his product? Just curious…

1
MxAddic
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8/27/2023 2:19pm
I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here    edit: “When conditions...

I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here 

 

edit: “When conditions allow, move out of the fast line. Once out of the fast line, hold your line; do not ride erratically and do not impede the faster rider’s progress. Riders disregarding the blue flag may be penalized at the discretion of Race Direction.”

NOPE! Not if your a vitard.

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Juck
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8/27/2023 3:12pm
I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here    edit: “When conditions...

I thought the rule stated to stay out of the main racing line? I’ve seen it posted a few times on here 

 

edit: “When conditions allow, move out of the fast line. Once out of the fast line, hold your line; do not ride erratically and do not impede the faster rider’s progress. Riders disregarding the blue flag may be penalized at the discretion of Race Direction.”

So many dumbshits in here that are so confident about the rules yet are completely wrong.

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1
8/27/2023 3:37pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

TbonesPop wrote:
Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know...

Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know, that's probably not the best way to market your product.

What’s his product? Just curious…

MotoHose

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8/27/2023 4:15pm
TbonesPop wrote:
Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know...

Just an FYI - You aren't exactly helping your brand or your product with that post.  You may or may not care.  Just letting you know, that's probably not the best way to market your product.

What’s his product? Just curious…

mattyhamz2 wrote:

MotoHose

Moto Hosed with that attitude.

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StillSmokin
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8/27/2023 6:20pm

Let's cancel Moto Hose!

Anyone seen my purse?

oceantrav
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8/27/2023 6:34pm
yz133rider wrote:

Too many riders on track, no need for 25 guys 5-10 seconds off per lap.

Agree 100%

 

as much as everyone is against this. Most could care less pass the top 20 riders. 20 man gate would be better

 

why is it a gate 42? When did that happen? If not 20, why not 50, or 60? Why just 42 for ever 

1
MX558
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8/27/2023 6:36pm

IMHO they should hold their line , the fast guys need to get around them . 

1
8/27/2023 8:00pm
MX558 wrote:

IMHO they should hold their line , the fast guys need to get around them . 

IMHO, the lappers should not hinder the leaders coming through, especially they shouldn't hinder one rider more than another thus giving an advantage to the other rider.  That's exactly what happened.  But at the end of the day, or opinions don't matter.  Enforcing the rules is all that matters.

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Madkiwi
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8/27/2023 8:15pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

I get what you are saying and agree on a part of it, the racers fighting for 20th. But in this case the guy saw Jett catch him and then must have known the next guy to rapidly catch him was likely NOT the guy in 21st or whatever....

I race and do so in a series that runs 30-minute races, I have been in the leading group on my good days lapping people and being lapped on my bad. It is REALLY easy to roll off the throttle for a split second and let someone pass.

The hard part is making the decision to actually do it.... Is it a leader coming through or one of those evil bastards you'd rather die than to get a point off of you?

We don't have blue flags so that decision is harder, in this case, he had Jet blast past, multiple blue flags AND Chase zoom up and be on his ass. Not to mention a large gap back to his nearest rival that his pit board should have been showing.

In this case, I think he should be given a penalty of some sort. To enforce his better track behaviour in future and to send a message to the rest, be blatantly stoopid on track, and you'll get a penalty.

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TDeath21
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8/27/2023 9:37pm
lumpy790 wrote:
Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions...

Final race of the series or 1st round. There are guys fist fighting to fight their way into being in the top 20 points paying positions. Now add in going straight into the playoffs or getting shoved into the street fight ovrer the last 2 spots left on the starting gate.

Hill and others were in that blue flag bubble and making it in or not depending and 1 position shift either way absolutely affects it.

So ….. Do you pull over or do you fight for that playoffs paycheck? What does your mechanic, team manager, friend, spouse or parent think you should do? Go slower or going WFO to that checkered flag fighting for every position you can.

I know 100% what I would do and what I have told my riders to do and it certainly is not going slower. If the leaders are fast enough to catch me/you for whatever reason they certainly should be fast enough to easily go right past. Every turn every straight has multiple line choices. If you are rolling you are not passing. If they cant pass you they either made a bad choice or weren’t fast enough.

Madkiwi wrote:
I get what you are saying and agree on a part of it, the racers fighting for 20th. But in this case the guy saw Jett...

I get what you are saying and agree on a part of it, the racers fighting for 20th. But in this case the guy saw Jett catch him and then must have known the next guy to rapidly catch him was likely NOT the guy in 21st or whatever....

I race and do so in a series that runs 30-minute races, I have been in the leading group on my good days lapping people and being lapped on my bad. It is REALLY easy to roll off the throttle for a split second and let someone pass.

The hard part is making the decision to actually do it.... Is it a leader coming through or one of those evil bastards you'd rather die than to get a point off of you?

We don't have blue flags so that decision is harder, in this case, he had Jet blast past, multiple blue flags AND Chase zoom up and be on his ass. Not to mention a large gap back to his nearest rival that his pit board should have been showing.

In this case, I think he should be given a penalty of some sort. To enforce his better track behaviour in future and to send a message to the rest, be blatantly stoopid on track, and you'll get a penalty.

Yep. I’ve talked to riders who have ridden pro nationals and been in that 20-40 range so obviously they’re lappers. Every one of them I’ve talked to has said they were aware of the leaders and the blue flag wasn’t even necessary. I find it hard to believe those riders didn’t know it was Sexton. For the leader it’s slightly more excusable, despite my anecdotal evidence. You can see how the first person to lap them may catch them off guard. After that though, surely you know that must be 2nd, then 3rd, etc.

3
8/27/2023 10:35pm
yz133rider wrote:

Too many riders on track, no need for 25 guys 5-10 seconds off per lap.

oceantrav wrote:
Agree 100%   as much as everyone is against this. Most could care less pass the top 20 riders. 20 man gate would be better  ...

Agree 100%

 

as much as everyone is against this. Most could care less pass the top 20 riders. 20 man gate would be better

 

why is it a gate 42? When did that happen? If not 20, why not 50, or 60? Why just 42 for ever 

its 40 gates, and its better that way,  (having been to 20 rider MXGP's) 

 

and since the guy most are pissed at was running 20th, it won't solve much,  I like the suggestion of going 2 laps down means black flag, 

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