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Yepp, fully agree!
Cooling the battery pack in between motos while charging will be a challenge.
The bike's water proof, charge the bike in a creek!
This will be a compromise between inverter/motor temp and size of the cooling system. A water-air-radiator doesn’t do much if the temperature gradient between air and water is low. So to achieve lower water temperatures the radiator size must grow significantly. I think Stark‘s setup with an electric water pump and fan has enough capacity to deal with the heat coming from the motor and inverter, which won’t be much higher than 5 kW.
FWIW Ducati manages to charge its MotoE without any cool down time, and we're talking about a massive 110 kg 18 kWh battery with bikes riding at an average speed over 150 km/h. Probably not the same tech and definitely not the same use than the Varg, just to point out that there are already solutions out there.
As always, let's see what happens with pro riders racing it !
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With that battery size and use they certainly use a water cooled battery with a separate cooling circuit. Cool thing about that is, that you can bypass the circuit in the pits and flush the system with cool coolant while charging and have crazy charging speeds and a perfectly conditioned battery for the next race.
Pros teams will swap the battery!
Thomas Do and Carl Ostermann are ready to go. Let's see what they do tomorrow on SX tour (Do is racing in SX2, not sure about Ostermann)
Thomas Do will race, but he won't be able to score any points. Even if he crosses the finish line first, he won't be declared the official race winner.
Translated French interview with Thomas Do.
Engaged in SX2 this weekend in Saint Georges de Montaigu on the handlebars of a Stark Varg, Thomas Do will carry out the first Supercross tests in official competition of the electric machine. His presence is conditioned by a race without bonus or points in the classification. It will be the same case for Arnaud Tonus in SX1 at Brienon riding the Stark Varg.
Thomas, you were engaged in SX1 with Yamaha. Why this choice to ride in Stark Varg in SX2 on the SX Tour?
“I think we are entering a new era in the world of motorcycling. It may open up other possibilities. The idea is not to eliminate thermal motorcycles, but to be able to ride in several places thanks to the Stark Varg. About me, I just redid my Supercross track. I only have the right to ride on it with an electric motorcycle because of the neighborhood. I am therefore directly affected by these noise issues. »
What was the return of the FFM following this request?
“In fact, we had a few questions for the federation through the SX Tour delegate Cyrille Lainey. With Sébastien Tortelli, we had a good discussion. We asked if it was possible to ride in competition with an electric motorcycle. After extensive work with the FFM, the response was positive from Cyrille. The second question concerned the fact of going down to SX2 during the season. Normally this is not possible once you are committed to a category. A derogation was made by the FFM so that I could change. It was authorized under certain conditions: no points or bonuses. I would have been in SX1, I would have scored points and taken the bonuses. The FFM gave us a horsepower to respect which is that of a stock Husqvarna 250 FE on the dyno. We have to stick to that. It can be controlled at any time on the motorcycle's mobile phone. It's impossible to cheat. Every stroke of the gas I give is noted. In feeling, it made me feel weird, because I went from a 450cc to a horsepower of 250. I absolutely don't feel like I have a motorcycle more powerful than a 250 when the Stark is blocked for the SX2 category. There will be no problem or jealousy to be had. All motorcycle data is stored in a black box. They can be consulted by the FFM and checked afterwards with the GPS, the route, the power…” I absolutely don't feel like I have a more powerful bike than a 250 when the Stark is stuck for the SX2 class. There will be no problem or jealousy to be had. All motorcycle data is stored in a black box. They can be consulted by the FFM and checked afterwards with the GPS, the route, the power…” I absolutely don't feel like I have a more powerful bike than a 250 when the Stark is stuck for the SX2 class. There will be no problem or jealousy to be had. All motorcycle data is stored in a black box. They can be consulted by the FFM and checked afterwards with the GPS, the route, the power…”
Why did you choose to go down to SX2?
“It was Stark's choice. I basically wanted to continue in 450 to score points and play for the championship as well as take the bonuses. Stark already has a driver in SX1 ( note: Arnaud Tonus will ride at Brienon in SX1) and they wanted to have a second in SX2. »
If you win this weekend, it will be strange to cross the finish line first and not get on the podium, right?
"I don't know how it's going to be there. I hope they will make me come on the podium even if we have to give the cup to the second. I'm here to ride, represent Stark, and their efforts, and show people how the bike performs. There will surely be questions during the briefing. I would leave the Stark representatives to discuss with the federation and the pilots. I am a pilot and I take care of driving. I don't want to get into any conflict.
And what will be the rest of the program?
“I will then ride the entire SX Tour. Concerning the SX of Paris, there will be no possibility of riding with the Stark in SX2 as I will not be qualified for the championship and there is no place in WildCard. There is a good chance that I will be in SX1 in Paris therefore. Then, I will ride in the German championship in the SX1 category with the Stark again. »
Translated French interview with Sébastien Poirier, the president of the FFM.
Following Thomas Do's presence on a Stark Varg this weekend at the SX Tour, many questions were raised from riders, managers and spectators. In order to better understand this great first in France, we asked the right questions to the president of the FFM Sébastien Poirier. Future of electric? Power control? Sporting equity? Possible association of the two technologies in the race? Here are the answers !
President, how is the arrival of electric cars perceived in competition?
“ We have been working on the electric motorcycle for years. We had already entered a Quantya in Gironville in 2009 on an endurance TT. We are working in this direction with the Moto Ball and the development of electric motorcycles in partnership with Electric Motion. I do not hide the fact that what we hear today with Supercross is the same speech heard seven years ago with the arrival of electric on the Moto Ball. This technology makes it possible to perpetuate discipline in the face of noise pollution attacks. It is in this sense that the FFM is focused on the performance of electrical machines. The Federation has always been sensitive to this , I consider that motorsports constitute a laboratory, a place of research and technological innovation, and as such play a fundamental societal role . We must not thwart research and engineering. The FFM is 110 years of evolution! I defend these innovations and the development of motorcycles. I don't want to be a president who fears evolution, technology and research. Quite the contrary. We are with electric motorcycles, on an evolution rarely seen in the last 50 years. Rightly or wrongly , this is another environmental topic. It is also a response to noise. Thomas Do closed his supercross field because of the noise… As a federation, from last year, we had authorized electric motorcycles, because I want to be at the forefront of evolution. The FFM supports all technical research. Obviously, this raises a lot of questions. You asked them during your tests on Moto Verte. We find that for the first time in motocross, this bike is very capable, if not more capable...
Precisely, the Stark Varg offers performance over a lap, superior to a thermal motorcycle. The question then arises of making it roll with the thermals?
“This is indeed the topical issue that we will have to deal with at the FFM congress in November. Until today, we have always separated the two. Not because the electric was too efficient, but because it was insufficient against the thermals. This is the case in Moto E, in Formula E. Here, for the first time, we have feedback saying that the Stark will ridicule the thermal. It's revolutionary. We are asked for specific regulations because electricity is too efficient. It's a different approach. The idea is this season to authorize electric motorcycles in order to collect as much information as possible in order to feed our expertise . »
The question of power control arises, what solutions are envisaged?
“We are working closely with Stark Varg to have access to the map data used?. There will initially be a check carried out just after the race. Then we will retrieve the data from Stark's server on Monday following the race. We are taking technical information on site so that in November, duringAt the FFM congress, we can make the right decisions in 2024. It is essential to know how to consider electric motorcycles in our championships. We need feedback in 2023. This will not change the SX Tour championship. We can clearly see the fears that this generates. We are on a kind of revolution. Each time, we have the oppositions of principle, the fears related to the unknown, to the new technology. I would like the federation to be the leader on this file and not lag behind, because it is a file that is going very quickly. »
The FFM motocross regulations stipulate that: " electric machines may participate in the various French championships, provided that they have previously undergone an expertise to determine the class in which they operate". This expertise has not yet been carried out on the Stark Varg to qualify its category?
“Yes, we are talking with the brand as well as Sébastien Tortelli and we have data on this subject. We have categorized in relation to potency. There is work that has been done and you too have done it during your tests in real conditions. »
I meant there by neutral software not coming from the Stark factory in order to rule out any possibility of cheating...
“This work will be done. I also note that on thermal motorcycles, there is the possibility of modifying the maps with the electronics. It is extremely difficult to control. This is the reason why we are in non-ranking categories this year for Thomas Do and Arnaud Tonus in Brienon. The work of the FFM is to see how to control as easily as possible in 2024 and in complete independence. »
The credibility of post-race checks depends on it
“Yes, and that's also why we're working with the brand to develop an application system to access data, in total transparency, on the use of power. Being able to change power while driving completely changes the control modes. With Stark, we wish to have certainty on a computer tool allowing to check live, on the races, the power of the machines used. Our fundamentals need to be reviewed. We have to face it this season to find answers in 2024.”
The fact that an out-of-classification driver evolves without scoring points, in the midst of opponents who are playing for the championship, raises the question of sports ethics...
" No. In many Championships, the FFM authorizes Wild Cards. This weekend in Carole, on the 600cc Supersport, we will have Valentin Debi who usually enters Grand-Prix Supersport. This has never been a problem. We accept this risk for the benefit of added value for the competition. This is also the case at the Paris SX in SX2 with guest drivers. Concerning Thomas Do, the Wild Card on the SX2 Championship is possible. What poses a problem is that it is electric. But the sporting principle of a guest exists and has always existed. »
Will electric motorcycles eventually evolve with thermals?
“Today, we are saying that electric motorcycles are more efficient than thermal ones. I want sporting fairness. I have no dogma? We, the federation, must collect as much information as possible so as not to make mistakes for future years. We are on a time of expertise in this perspective of the future. It seems to me that today, fighting against electricity is a rearguard fight. You have to know how to integrate it without jeopardizing sporting fairness. We would like a specific regulation, because the Stark would be more efficient. But conversely, if we had a huge technological advance of a Japanese or European brand, thermal which makes it superior, should we make a single category for this brand? Let's not fear the future and innovation. We have dozens of circuits that are threatened , the electrical is a response of responses . C oncerning the sports spectacle with an audience that wants noise , I spoke to the manufacturer about it, why not have a noisemaker to ensure the spectacle? I believe in a form of mixed practice. I _ congratulations that a manufacturer has managed to release a performance motocrosser. We want to define precise sporting regulations. If we have the feeling that this undermines sporting fairness, we will choose to target the type of discipline to be dissociated. This is work we will do this winter. »
Stark should be in open classes only...... as soon as you start judging by HP, CC or some other arbitary number, you get into problems.
If 41HP is too much against 250Fs, everyone will want to run a Stark because it is too advantageous
If 40HP is too small against 250Fs, no one will want to run a Stark because you are at a disadvantage
It's like people have forgotten how the 2-Stroke vs 4-Stroke divisions went....
Great interview, they are being quite clever about it:
Let's see how it goes while not ranking, then we will decide regulations accordingly to ensure as much fairness as possible. The answer may be a cap on hp, or another technical solution or maybe even separated category. They are being clever about it and are not in a rush.
Obviously it would be easier to find appropriate regulations competing in SX1 against 450, we'll see that next week with Arnaud Tonus.
"The idea is this season to authorize electric motorcycles in order to collect as much information as possible in order to feed our expertise."
Such an intelligent approach. Well done FFM.
Not to derail but at almost $20k Australian who’s gonna buy these as a private rider? That’s ridiculous…
How much is a brand new 450 msrp? The exchange rate in Australia isn’t great
It's sold at a price the market can bear, Stark are reporting 18,000 pre-orders so the market can bear that price!
Australia : CRF 450R 14 000 A$ (8 300 €) - Stark 19 600 A$ (11 600€) that is a steep +40% but the Honda is dirt cheap !
Europe (France) : CRF 450 10 500 € - Stark 13 900€ that is +32%
That's comparing for the 80 HP version obviously vastly more powerful but the Stark is massively more costly.
Comparing to another European-made bike it's not much closer in Australia however it's almost on par in Europe:
Australia : KTM 450 SXF 15 000 A$ (8 900 €) - Stark 19 600 A$ (11 600€) that is a steep +31% !
Europe (France) : KTM 450 SXF 12 000 € - Stark 13 900€ that is +16% for an extra 20 HP (or a mere 900 €, 7% compared to the 60 HP version).
It seems that at current exchange rates the Honda and KTM are quite cheap in Australia! So go buy bikes in Australia, just not the Stark 😜
Pit Row
New ktm 450sx and yz450f are 15k Australian. The 60hp Stark is $18,200 aud.
A full titanium exhaust for a 450 will run you 2 grand in Australia so add a new exhaust to your sxf or yzf and you're not far from the 60hp Stark
All contents...
...property of Moto Verte.
I would compare the stark sale to more like the factory versions evreyone releases which are around 17-18k.
Its not really a direct comparison to a 450.
938nm of torque. Google tells me this 693ft/lbs. Is this correct?
Yep, about 20 times the torque of a 450 !
That's why you need to precise with the throttle, and also why you don't need the clutch to pop a wheelie.
Its more torque than my Duramax truck . I think the way the FFM is going about allowing the Varg to race to help them figure out the rules is a great way to do it. Other than range and maybe extremely hot days, I think that Electric will have an advantage over gas if you have equal peak HP and torque limits on both. It will be interesting to see how the rules develop.
Is there a way to watch these SX races online ?
Looks like they use a stiffer frame for supercross. The frame that goes from the steering stem to the swing arm look thicker maybe aluminum since it is grey instead of black.
saw on marketplace someone selling his preorder in canada. with our taxe rate here in quebec this bike end up at 20000$ canadian dollard. A crf450r taxed is 13500$.
That's 938Nm torque at the rear wheel, which is similar to a 450f's rear wheel torque in 1st gear, torque is constant until you hit the power limit, then it's constant power and decreasing torque...
So about this SX tour round tonight, in SX2 Do got the best time of his heat and 4th best time overall, then placed 4th in his semi-finale.
He's qualified for the finale, still not sure what hp he's running but we'll get more information thanks to motoverte. And I want to see the Varg next week in SX1 racing the 450s!
Anyway if you take a step back, I think it's super cool to see a kind of start up company, starting from nothing, developing a brand new bike able to compete with the big established companies. It's crazy! I mean even if it was not electric it would already be a great story to witness the birth of a new brand in MX no?
It is cool. even if You dislike the idea of electric MX bikes, You have to like the idea of more industry jobs, riders being able to make a living riding, and that there is enough interest in the sport for a new brand to be started with and build a dirt bike as their first motorcycle. And its great to see Stark wanting to be involved in racing so early .
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