Stark Vargs (as in plural)

SEEMEFIRST
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8/1/2023 4:29pm
#434 wrote:
With guys like you in charge, we‘d still be riding a horse to work! You probably think of yourself as an average moto guy… but you’re...

With guys like you in charge, we‘d still be riding a horse to work!

You probably think of yourself as an average moto guy… but you’re not. All the pre orders show that people want cool new shit and the Varg is cool new shit. Even if it won’t last a moto with pro on it.

And always remember: you don’t have to buy one

RACING wrote:
I ride offroad on a four stroke.

I ride offroad on a four stroke.

Laughing

#434 wrote:

Of course it’s a sh…y woods guys on his clapped-out four banger that complains the loudest that Varg can’t do 30 min full tilt..

Great...

Another guy who has absolutely no idea what woods is about.

Stay frosty in your pristine Fox gear, and immaculate graphics and plastic.

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RACING
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8/1/2023 4:44pm
Has anybody watched the video review they have at that link? And anybody know of a way to translate the video with subtitles or something?   ...

Has anybody watched the video review they have at that link? And anybody know of a way to translate the video with subtitles or something? 

 

I watched it and it showed 2 people. A host and one of the riders. Perhaps the host is also a rider in the video. But it looked like they only had a single riders opinion . Almost every clip they showed during the video is of the Varg passing or pulling away from the gas bike that is on the track. 

I tried to buy a subscription to be able to read the entire article but they will not take my payment, ( I am not only a dumb eliever , I am apparently broke too)and the payment gateway is also in french so It could be me making a mistake. The only french I know is from working with Shot racegear. So useless when watching the video.  But it looks like they were riding with techs from Stark there at the track. And it looked similar to the track all the Varg clips come from. A little bit softer dirt. 

 

Thank You for all the Thumbs down votes. I really appreciate it. It shows me that the people hating the Varg  know what I'm saying is true. So keep smashing that Thumbs down! And I'll keep giving my opinion . Also has anybody but Mike read the article?  The video looked like an overall positive review. I was hoping they would show some of the issues. Have clips of the bikes and show what issues they had. 

 

The video was a disappointment for me trying to see what problems came up. Maybe the video is not covering what is in the article. It's all in French and I'm just a dumb Varglover. Please somebody show me the quotes from the article. It proves how bad the bikes are  right?   

Every point Mike and me related here is from Moto Verte's video.

KurtJ99
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8/1/2023 5:00pm
GrapeApe wrote:
I don't think this transition will be the same. Consumers overwhelmingly preferred the 4 strokes to 2 strokes, and demand for 2 strokes tanked quickly. I...

I don't think this transition will be the same. Consumers overwhelmingly preferred the 4 strokes to 2 strokes, and demand for 2 strokes tanked quickly. I don't think demand for ICE bikes will have a similar decline, instead I think overall bike sales will increase with electric and ICE options. I'll have an electric bike for my property and any new "e" riding areas that may pop up, but I'll never give up ICE bikes for traditional track and trail riding.

I think the consumers were influenced by the near 100% displacement advantage of four strokes over two strokes. Go four stroke or get left behind. 

The greatest razor/razor blade scam in MX history. You could repair your 2T dirt bike with the coins in your couch now you need a bank loan when your 4T frags. Sell me more, please. 

Understand that a lot of riders bypass that problem by selling before the 4T hourmeter gets up there. But the problem is pushed down to someone else who will pay or scrap the bike. 

Maybe the AMA should allow the Varg in the 250MX class just to give it an advantage….oh wait no the mainstream manufacturers  would never allow that. 
 

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JM485
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8/1/2023 6:08pm
truck wrote:
Anyone paying attention to what Ford has been saying about EVs lately? Taking a $4.5 BILLION loss on them this year, far more than the huge...

Anyone paying attention to what Ford has been saying about EVs lately? Taking a $4.5 BILLION loss on them this year, far more than the huge losses they projected. Admitting they aren't close to being profitable yet. How many rounds of funding did Rivian go through before they went public and watched their stock prices tank? 

 

It really doesn't matter how great the bike is if the business model doesn't work and you don't have a parent company to keep you afloat. It seems pretty clear to me that's the reality Stark is facing. Putting out a few bikes here and there doesn't dig you out of that hole but that's all they seem capable of after several months of being in production.

 

We've heard some of the numbers on what's been invested. They've easily spent that much a few times over by now. Just do the math. Use whatever numbers you think are reasonable. What do you think the average profit is per bike? What do you think their operating budget is? How many bikes do you have to produce before those numbers match? Be as generous as you want and you'll still get a number that is far greater than what they are doing. They'll be out of business by this time next year. Not rooting for it, but don't see how they avoid it. Fervent belief doesn't pay the bills. 

Care to place a wager on them being out of business next year?

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The Shop

8/1/2023 6:18pm

Damn… this thread makes my head hurt 🤦🏼‍♂️

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truck
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8/1/2023 7:31pm
The BIG difference between Electric cars and an Electric MX bike is they expected to sell 1000 -5000.  I would bet that Ford has much higher...

The BIG difference between Electric cars and an Electric MX bike is they expected to sell 1000 -5000.  I would bet that Ford has much higher goals. An electric  Ford car is nothing special. I only can name off the lightning truck. Nothing else comes to mind. 

The Varg will enable people to ride in places that a gas bike can  not go.  Indoor tracks may be a long-term possibility. But personal home tracks are something people can do right now. 

The Varg is more inline with a Tesla Plaid. Its something You want, Nobody needs one. Its a toy  its fun and can do stuff a gas version can not do.

 

I hope they do not fail. Its really an apples to oranges deal.  Not the same at all.  Look at the growth of Sur-ron and other small electric vehicle brands. Powersports in general. 

Although its not as much of a stretch to connect  Fords issues to potential issues for Stark. As the sky is falling claims from an article  nobody hear has read in full.  Stark is starting up and knew they would not start making any money until they were deep into bike sales. Unless they left no room for era , they are running behind , but even if they were on time I do not think they would be making a profit yet anyway.  

The volume is what Ford is banking on for sure. In the end they'll scale up and make money. That's the problem I see with Stark. If they sell the max number they project at $13,000 that puts them around $65,000,000 revenue. That's just not a lot to work with on something of this scale when you're starting out in the hole. Projecting not making a profit is one thing but you still have to end up close to your projected losses to make the plan work. Material or labor costs go up a little, production not up to projections, or any combination of problems and without more cash or a Ford keeping you afloat, you're just done. 

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#434
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8/1/2023 10:16pm Edited Date/Time 8/1/2023 10:29pm
#434 wrote:

Of course it’s a sh…y woods guys on his clapped-out four banger that complains the loudest that Varg can’t do 30 min full tilt..

RACING wrote:
And I'm the one propagating prejudice...

And I'm the one propagating prejudice...

Laughing

No no, I think I know what kinda guy you are. You’re one of those shield of your helmet down, sunglasses instead of googles, blinker on, kickstand hanging down guys that’s putting around motocross tracks with 20 km/h. I mean, I‘d be afraid of eMX bikes too if I were you. The fear of getting landed on when you’re rolling every jump on the track with dead silent bikes coming up on you would give me nightmares as well…

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prozach
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8/1/2023 10:33pm

Tesla is pretty profitable these days... Maybe Ford just isn't good at it? 

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Goldmember
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8/1/2023 10:59pm
prozach wrote:

Tesla is pretty profitable these days... Maybe Ford just isn't good at it? 

Tesla make most of their money in a government facilitated scam, really.

They're selling carbon offset credits to companies who make IC vehicles.

 

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#434
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8/2/2023 12:04am
prozach wrote:

Tesla is pretty profitable these days... Maybe Ford just isn't good at it? 

Goldmember wrote:

Tesla make most of their money in a government facilitated scam, really.

They're selling carbon offset credits to companies who make IC vehicles.

 

Tesla made 80 billion $ of revenue in 2022 and 1.8 billion $ came from selling carbon credits…

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RACING
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8/2/2023 1:06am
#434 wrote:
No no, I think I know what kinda guy you are. You’re one of those shield of your helmet down, sunglasses instead of googles, blinker on...

No no, I think I know what kinda guy you are. You’re one of those shield of your helmet down, sunglasses instead of googles, blinker on, kickstand hanging down guys that’s putting around motocross tracks with 20 km/h. I mean, I‘d be afraid of eMX bikes too if I were you. The fear of getting landed on when you’re rolling every jump on the track with dead silent bikes coming up on you would give me nightmares as well…

Yeah, yeah, yeah, shoot the messenger, classic technique when you have nothing to answer. Throwing crap at me will clearly give the Varg more battery life. 

Laughing

 

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Goldmember
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8/2/2023 1:48am
#434 wrote:

Tesla made 80 billion $ of revenue in 2022 and 1.8 billion $ came from selling carbon credits…

LOL

Most if not all of what is left over, ie any profit, comes from the goverment sanctioned carbon credits scam on taxpayers.

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2
8/2/2023 2:03am
#434 wrote:

Tesla made 80 billion $ of revenue in 2022 and 1.8 billion $ came from selling carbon credits…

Goldmember wrote:

LOL

Most if not all of what is left over, ie any profit, comes from the goverment sanctioned carbon credits scam on taxpayers.

Math is not your strength...

image-20230802190058-1

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Sandusky26
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8/2/2023 3:00am
RACING wrote:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, shoot the messenger, classic technique when you have nothing to answer. Throwing crap at me will clearly give the Varg more battery life. ...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, shoot the messenger, classic technique when you have nothing to answer. Throwing crap at me will clearly give the Varg more battery life. 

Laughing

 

This must be Sanduskys burner account.

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RACING
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8/2/2023 3:17am Edited Date/Time 8/2/2023 4:56am

OK, so I finally read the magazine article. For the most part it doesn't say much more that what we already wrote: it's high-end built, very fast, feels light and nimble, and would probably be the best bike around if it could finish a moto, lol... 

Holeshots a 450 everytime (even though they say you have to be real good at modulating the power and will end up on your ass if you go full gas) and turns on a dime, more easily than a 250. No laptimes.

Still, there's one very interesting part, it's a (very short) interview with some marketing/communication guy from Stark...

"An average rider won't necessarily have fun riding with the bike set at 60 hp. With 50, 40 or even 30hp, you have much more fun."

OK, so let's buy an ultra-powerful bike and detune it to have more fun.

"The bikes you are riding today have sensors that are set so the engine won't overheat. The sensors are not restrictive but safe, one can work on their settings."

So the bikes that were overheating have "not restrictive but safe" (whatever that means, lol) sensors settings, calculated NOT to overheat but you can push their limit farther so it overheats more? 

"The hi-level buyer will be able to have his bike do a moto without overheating. Sebastien Tortelli, with his bike set at 62hp and 84% of engine braking, can ride for 30 minutes without a problem."

So, if you know the settings that allow him to do that, why didn't you put them on these test bikes?

Wink

So to summarize what I read, it can be one of the best or the best MX bike around... once a few "youth issues" are solved. 

 

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Audie Murphy
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8/2/2023 4:11am
Goldmember wrote:

LOL

Most if not all of what is left over, ie any profit, comes from the goverment sanctioned carbon credits scam on taxpayers.

You are correct sir. Tesla only exist today because of the taxpayers tit that it continuously sucks off of. BUT,....you cannot convince the suckers into actually following the money or focusing on reality. They are too blind in "saving the planet" even though the vehicle is made of fossil fuels, has to have fossil fuels to power it and there are NO solutions to the afterlife of the failing battery systems.

As the famous Forrest Gump once stated, "stupid is as stupid does". 

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Goldmember
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8/2/2023 4:20am Edited Date/Time 8/2/2023 4:25am
Math is not your strength...

Math is not your strength...

image-20230802190058-1

My info was accurate, just a bit old.

Point is Tesla selling their bombs is pretty much the same as the tax payer rip off credit for IC. People are buying these 50% overpriced, mediocre quality E cars for in-group leftist, social credit, virtue signaling.

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RACING
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8/2/2023 4:24am

Oh, btw, that Benjamin Cobb guy from Stark says another interesting thing: "With the rules in place, being able to race MXGP will be long and difficult. We're working with national federations, in France, Italy, Great Britain, so that people can buy our bike knowing the can go and race their championship."

So, for now, between "settings" and rules, it's the fastest playbike in the world, but not a race bike yet.

 

1
RACING
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8/2/2023 4:28am

Maybe someone will have the time and courage to translate it all...

image-20230802132609-1

image-20230802132634-2

image-20230802132657-3

image-20230802132714-4

3
8/2/2023 5:55am
Math is not your strength...

Math is not your strength...

image-20230802190058-1

Goldmember wrote:
My info was accurate, just a bit old. Point is Tesla selling their bombs is pretty much the same as the tax payer rip off credit...

My info was accurate, just a bit old.

Point is Tesla selling their bombs is pretty much the same as the tax payer rip off credit for IC. People are buying these 50% overpriced, mediocre quality E cars for in-group leftist, social credit, virtue signaling.

So all new Fords are crap, because the Ford Model T's performance doesn't match current cars manufactured by other car companies?

#434
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8/2/2023 7:10am
RACING wrote:
Maybe someone will have the time and courage to translate it all...

Maybe someone will have the time and courage to translate it all...

image-20230802132609-1

image-20230802132634-2

image-20230802132657-3

image-20230802132714-4

Thanks dude!

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1
8/2/2023 7:30am
Math is not your strength...

Math is not your strength...

image-20230802190058-1

Goldmember wrote:
My info was accurate, just a bit old. Point is Tesla selling their bombs is pretty much the same as the tax payer rip off credit...

My info was accurate, just a bit old.

Point is Tesla selling their bombs is pretty much the same as the tax payer rip off credit for IC. People are buying these 50% overpriced, mediocre quality E cars for in-group leftist, social credit, virtue signaling.

Anyone see the news story from the last few days of the guy that was locked inside of his Tesla because the battery died?

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Lightning78
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8/2/2023 7:48am

Did anyone watch the e-bike moto for the kids at lorettas? It was terrible not having any sound

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#434
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8/2/2023 8:45am
mattyhamz2 wrote:

Anyone see the news story from the last few days of the guy that was locked inside of his Tesla because the battery died?

Haha, really!? I don’t think that‘s gonna be a problem with the Varg!

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truck
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8/2/2023 9:16am

I think some people are having a hard time separating the merits of the bike from the viability of the business model. Obviously if the bike sucks the business will fail, but even if the bike is perfect it doesn't mean the business succeeds. 

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8/2/2023 9:36am
RACING wrote:
Oh, btw, that Benjamin Cobb guy from Stark says another interesting thing: "With the rules in place, being able to race MXGP will be long and...

Oh, btw, that Benjamin Cobb guy from Stark says another interesting thing: "With the rules in place, being able to race MXGP will be long and difficult. We're working with national federations, in France, Italy, Great Britain, so that people can buy our bike knowing the can go and race their championship."

So, for now, between "settings" and rules, it's the fastest playbike in the world, but not a race bike yet.

 

People can Race Alta's and have been.  Not Pro level racing but it can not run long enough anyway.  In NESC , You can run the open and Vet classes on an Alta or Varg.  So for somebody that is  30 there are 2 classes  that I know you can run in.  Jday allows the Alta too. I would be that many local  organizations will allow it in similar classes.   You can run one in the Am AMA Arenacross races in the Age classes. And so on.  

The reason I asked if anybody watched the video was because  You or Mike had said you only read the part you could read for free. And had not said anything about watching a video.

 

 I would say that the sensors notify you that you are getting close to an overheating situation. And like a temp gage  on a car, the temp gage tells you you should stop  doing whatever is overheating the car. But do not stop the car for you.  So It allows you to get to a safe area to stop.  And that is what they were saying about the Varg. 

If the goal is to have fun, than who cares if you detune it to have more fun? Its still there if you decide more power will be more fun. Should they just sell  a bike limited to what they think is more fun? Thats the great thing with electric is how you can adjust the power.

 

 As far as why they did not have the setting to limit the bike and prevent overheating and or extend the range.  Perhaps the bikes started off in that setting and the testers were playing with the app and changed it?  That doesn't seem to sound crazy to me. 

 

When the bike or bikes " Overheated"  . What happened?  Did the rider ignore the warning of the temp getting high and keep riding. Or was the overheating  they talk about  , just the light or however the app communicates that the bike is getting too hot . And the rider stopped at that point?    What was required when a bike overheated? 

 

 So they pretty much said, that Unless You are a top pro level speed the bike is amazing . If you are a top pro level speed guy, its amazing  at the higher HP setting for 75% of a moto or lower the power output to 60ish and it can be amazing for the entire moto. 

 

So what where the items that broke that You guys were talking about?    

Maybe I'll try and translate that over the weekend if somebody doesn't before. I was trying to subscribe , but much of the stuff was not translating and then it would not take my payment. I probably did something wrong since it was in french and I only know a handful of french words. Thank You for posting the article. 

 It really doesn't sound like it said much bad about the bike. Definitely nothing that I can see that would be such a reason for Goldmembers celebration. 

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8/2/2023 9:57am
truck wrote:
I think some people are having a hard time separating the merits of the bike from the viability of the business model. Obviously if the bike...

I think some people are having a hard time separating the merits of the bike from the viability of the business model. Obviously if the bike sucks the business will fail, but even if the bike is perfect it doesn't mean the business succeeds. 

Very true. But the Guy behind the Varg has been building businesses in the moto industry since he was in highschool. And he has help from one of the biggest manufacturers of motorcycles in the world.  I think he went into it knowing that there could be issues. And a lot of it was being done early on in the Covid  stuff. So they were more informed on the issues that they would face as a result of Covid than they would have if they had started out 5 years ago. I'm not saying that its not possible for them to fail.  I'm just saying that  the Ford issues are not a great parallel for comparison. 

 How is Ford doing otherwise? Could it just be some  moving around of numbers to avoid paying a giant amount of taxes?  Spending a ton on R&D to offset high profits from other areas? 

 

We really do not know what Starks money situation is . the 50M they got was not a " Buy Out" like Goldmember described it.  And sometimes it makes more sense to get a loan than pay cash.  Tax benefits , low interest rates  , avoiding being cash poor, I'm sure there are others. I would not see such a small loan as signs of big trouble.  The delays  would be more of a sign to me. Since I'm sure they only planed for the possibility of things going so bad. But without knowing what the delays are caused by its hard to really say if its a sign of trouble or not.

 

I imagine it may also take a good amount of time to contact and transfer the funds from the buyers. Having some buyers opt out  , but still having to contact them before  jumping to next in line. 

 

I wish anybody and everybody well that wants to start a business , that will provide more jobs and grow the industry we all love. I hope that Stark's story is more like Tesla than Alta.   

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RACING
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8/2/2023 10:16am
People can Race Alta's and have been.  Not Pro level racing but it can not run long enough anyway.  In NESC , You can run the...

People can Race Alta's and have been.  Not Pro level racing but it can not run long enough anyway.  In NESC , You can run the open and Vet classes on an Alta or Varg.  So for somebody that is  30 there are 2 classes  that I know you can run in.  Jday allows the Alta too. I would be that many local  organizations will allow it in similar classes.   You can run one in the Am AMA Arenacross races in the Age classes. And so on.  

The reason I asked if anybody watched the video was because  You or Mike had said you only read the part you could read for free. And had not said anything about watching a video.

 

 I would say that the sensors notify you that you are getting close to an overheating situation. And like a temp gage  on a car, the temp gage tells you you should stop  doing whatever is overheating the car. But do not stop the car for you.  So It allows you to get to a safe area to stop.  And that is what they were saying about the Varg. 

If the goal is to have fun, than who cares if you detune it to have more fun? Its still there if you decide more power will be more fun. Should they just sell  a bike limited to what they think is more fun? Thats the great thing with electric is how you can adjust the power.

 

 As far as why they did not have the setting to limit the bike and prevent overheating and or extend the range.  Perhaps the bikes started off in that setting and the testers were playing with the app and changed it?  That doesn't seem to sound crazy to me. 

 

When the bike or bikes " Overheated"  . What happened?  Did the rider ignore the warning of the temp getting high and keep riding. Or was the overheating  they talk about  , just the light or however the app communicates that the bike is getting too hot . And the rider stopped at that point?    What was required when a bike overheated? 

 

 So they pretty much said, that Unless You are a top pro level speed the bike is amazing . If you are a top pro level speed guy, its amazing  at the higher HP setting for 75% of a moto or lower the power output to 60ish and it can be amazing for the entire moto. 

 

So what where the items that broke that You guys were talking about?    

Maybe I'll try and translate that over the weekend if somebody doesn't before. I was trying to subscribe , but much of the stuff was not translating and then it would not take my payment. I probably did something wrong since it was in french and I only know a handful of french words. Thank You for posting the article. 

 It really doesn't sound like it said much bad about the bike. Definitely nothing that I can see that would be such a reason for Goldmembers celebration. 

OK, let's do this one more time...

Wink

Mike originally posted a link to the video part of the test. 

I was asked questions by #434 and replied "I don't know, I'd have to buy the magazine and read the full article".

The overheating put the bike in "safety mode" (15% of the power, from what I understand, just enough to go back to the pits) after three laps with the two fastest riders. 

Another one of the bikes was stopped with the engine cutting (unrelated to overheating). The Stark staff said it might be a problem with the connectors but was unable to fix it so it was out.

None of these were saved my the "magical Tortelli setting" which remains the interesting question: if you actually have a setting that allows a former pro to ride 40 minutes at 62hp without ant problem, why don't you use it for a press test with a major magazine? 

1
djr
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8/2/2023 10:44am

It's funny that none of the Influencers that have Vargs have mentioned any overheating problems.

Perhaps there is a Tortelli setting, and an even better - Influencer setting

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8/2/2023 10:52am
mattyhamz2 wrote:

Anyone see the news story from the last few days of the guy that was locked inside of his Tesla because the battery died?

#434 wrote:

Haha, really!? I don’t think that‘s gonna be a problem with the Varg!

Haha yup. Hot day, battery died and was locked inside. There was another story last year of another guy who’s battery had an issue and the car caught fire. Guy struggled to get out because he was locked inside as well. 

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