New 2023 YZ450F

RCMXracing
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889
Joined
8/10/2011
Location
N., TX US
7/18/2023 11:05am
Looking for some help, 23 Yz 450 20 hours. Went to the track today and noticed it took 15 cranks to get the bike started. Very...

Looking for some help, 23 Yz 450 20 hours. Went to the track today and noticed it took 15 cranks to get the bike started. Very odd considering it starts up first crack. Let the bike warm up, gave it a couple revs and noticed some minor decel popping. Went out on the track, road for about 15 minutes. Bike felt kinda slow. I felt like I was in the full throttle position more than normal, just didn’t feel like it was pulling hard . Came in and put a stock map back in. Started the bike up and it was bogging hard with 3/4 throttle revs. Took the bike out and had major bogg under any load. Came back in let the bike cool down and was hard to start back up. And that’s where I left it. My initial thoughts are  fuel pump issues. Just looking to see if anybody’s had something similar or any insight on a direction for me to go. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks all. 

dr.evil wrote:
Yamaha tech support has stated they're seeing mapping/kill switch issues.  Mine sporadically cuts out in the mid range without set ryhme or reason and has been...

Yamaha tech support has stated they're seeing mapping/kill switch issues.  Mine sporadically cuts out in the mid range without set ryhme or reason and has been hard to start since cutting out started.  Hard starting is only apparent when its having the cutting out issues btw.  Valves won't be the issue with 12 hours on machine.  Map switch is ordered as its cheapest to replace with a known problem to yamaha since I've already went through the whole wiring harness connections and added dielectric grease to all cleaned out connections to no avail. Will let ya know if it solves the very sporadic problem.

Caution with the use of dielectric grease, common misunderstanding of proper use. It’s an insulator. Having it on the connection pins is the exact opposite of what you want. Not saying you did… but the way your post is worded… just trying to be helpful.
 

2
soggy
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Location
UT US
7/18/2023 11:27am
swaldrop wrote:

You needed to hear about folks having issues with their bikes to make yourself feel better about the purchase you made? 

no i felt good from the jump lol... thats why i bought the f*cker lol     But i loved my yamaha when i had them...

no i felt good from the jump lol... thats why i bought the f*cker lol

 

But i loved my yamaha when i had them untill i didnt. The chassis was great, it made riding the bike seem effortless. Then the motor was super strong and awesome power, until the connecting rod went snap. after that happened i immediately realized the chassis handling wasn't worth risking my life over. jumped ship to ktm. all the dudes that also rode ktm around me at the time all had a very similar story about the connecting rod experience (some more than once. Some dudes saying the same thing ventured all the way back to 2007.

I am still a fan of Yamahas products. i just cant ever trust a motocross bike from them again unless im doing the connecting rod first. Not sure if Carrillo or cw1 has a rod out for this bike yet. But if they did it might be a good idea to get it on your list of aftermarket purchases and make it priority number one cause it sure would be mine haha

every one has different experiences and some will say well that bike probably wasnt maintained or whatever... but i think we all know what to do if were gonna go ride.. air filter, and oil change every time cause why take the risk!

I recall you saying last year you were done with Austrian bikes. Lol. 

DB97
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Orlando, FL US
7/20/2023 8:59am

IMG 1840 0.jpeg?VersionId=Ej3opPNT2obAfL46RfCbW4odgDt9

 IMG 1841

 

3

The Shop

7/20/2023 11:26am
tek14 wrote:
Dont know if Keefer is friend of Bigfoot but my initial test today riding everything same but shims and without shims felt sharp braking bums were...

Dont know if Keefer is friend of Bigfoot but my initial test today riding everything same but shims and without shims felt sharp braking bums were not as sharp with shims. Could be placebo effect knowing when riding shims and when not. Keefer talking it will affect turning on lean but that wasnt anything I could feel riding rough sandy GP track with more sand berms than ruts. 

Its all in your mind because you want it to be true. Whistling

Boggins
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Location
Hermosa Beach, CA US
7/21/2023 7:43pm

What do you guys suggest?

Change piston or complete top end at what hour mark?

Change clutch plates at what hour mark?  replace with which brand / product?

 

1
TomC31
Posts
216
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Location
Temecula, CA US
7/22/2023 3:49am

Hi Everyone, a further update on my problem I encountered, the bike is now stuck with the launch control on and does not come off, whether you change gears to 3rd, 4th it doesn't come off.

Also the orange light flashing indicating launch control is on stays on even when the bike is turned off. The only way to stop it is to disconnect the battery. 
 

On the power tuner app it comes up with Diagnostic Code 13.

Has anyone encountered this or know any solution?

I disconnected the kill/map switch completely and rode the bike and the launch control is still stuck on. 
 

 

DB97
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Location
Orlando, FL US
7/22/2023 2:07pm
TomC31 wrote:
Hi Everyone, a further update on my problem I encountered, the bike is now stuck with the launch control on and does not come off, whether...

Hi Everyone, a further update on my problem I encountered, the bike is now stuck with the launch control on and does not come off, whether you change gears to 3rd, 4th it doesn't come off.

Also the orange light flashing indicating launch control is on stays on even when the bike is turned off. The only way to stop it is to disconnect the battery. 
 

On the power tuner app it comes up with Diagnostic Code 13.

Has anyone encountered this or know any solution?

I disconnected the kill/map switch completely and rode the bike and the launch control is still stuck on. 
 

 

That’s the same error I had. It’s the air pressure sensor. IMG 1886.png?VersionId=fkTgHqihHOd

 

TomC31
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Location
Temecula, CA US
7/22/2023 3:56pm
TomC31 wrote:
Hi Everyone, a further update on my problem I encountered, the bike is now stuck with the launch control on and does not come off, whether...

Hi Everyone, a further update on my problem I encountered, the bike is now stuck with the launch control on and does not come off, whether you change gears to 3rd, 4th it doesn't come off.

Also the orange light flashing indicating launch control is on stays on even when the bike is turned off. The only way to stop it is to disconnect the battery. 
 

On the power tuner app it comes up with Diagnostic Code 13.

Has anyone encountered this or know any solution?

I disconnected the kill/map switch completely and rode the bike and the launch control is still stuck on. 
 

 

DB97 wrote:
That’s the same error I had. It’s the air pressure sensor.   

That’s the same error I had. It’s the air pressure sensor. IMG 1886.png?VersionId=fkTgHqihHOd

 

Thankyou !

dr.evil
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Lostant, IL US
7/23/2023 9:25am

Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which is weird.  Anyone having any of the same issues and has come up with a fix?

the kid 857
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Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
7/23/2023 12:35pm
dr.evil wrote:
Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which...

Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which is weird.  Anyone having any of the same issues and has come up with a fix?

Have you looked at the injector? I'm having the same issue with a bog and the bike running like the choke is on. Trying a buddies kill switch and fuel tank tomorrow. Checking valves after that.... 

dr.evil
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Lostant, IL US
7/23/2023 5:15pm
dr.evil wrote:
Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which...

Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which is weird.  Anyone having any of the same issues and has come up with a fix?

Have you looked at the injector? I'm having the same issue with a bog and the bike running like the choke is on. Trying a buddies...

Have you looked at the injector? I'm having the same issue with a bog and the bike running like the choke is on. Trying a buddies kill switch and fuel tank tomorrow. Checking valves after that.... 

I have not.  Such an isolated issue in the rpm range I figured it's more of an electrical issue.  Anxious to heR if that works for you.  Mine will mostly exhibit the problem in the mid range under load.  Keep me posted and hope ya find the issue!

1
DDMX18
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AU
7/23/2023 7:48pm

20230722 084844-1-1280x720

 Anyone notice the revised air intake on the MXGP bikes, looks like they're searching for more air

Rider 5280
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Denver Metro, CO US
7/23/2023 11:02pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2023 11:54pm
tek14 wrote:
Dont know if Keefer is friend of Bigfoot but my initial test today riding everything same but shims and without shims felt sharp braking bums were...

Dont know if Keefer is friend of Bigfoot but my initial test today riding everything same but shims and without shims felt sharp braking bums were not as sharp with shims. Could be placebo effect knowing when riding shims and when not. Keefer talking it will affect turning on lean but that wasnt anything I could feel riding rough sandy GP track with more sand berms than ruts. 

Luxon MX wrote:
The problem with track testing is that there are tons of other variables changing all at the same time. From one test without shims to one...

The problem with track testing is that there are tons of other variables changing all at the same time. From one test without shims to one with, your tire pressure is dropping during the switch (a small amount, but it happens). The fuel level is lower (or much higher if you refueled during the swap), the track is changing due to other riders being on it, lines changing, weather, etc. Your forks are cooling down. And so much more.

On top of that, your torque on those pinch bolts is likely a bit different and the resulting tension force in the clamp is different (and that's the important part). Because of uncertainty in the torque-tension relationship, the uncertainty in the torque wrench accuracy, the uncertainty in the user. (Big post about that here: https://www.luxonmx.com/blog-luxon-bolt-torque-tension.html)

And if the resulting clamping tension is different, then a rider can feel the difference. But it has nothing to do with spacers or reduced thread engagement. You could have the exact same effect by just changing the torque without the spacers. And I'd argue that changing the triple clamp pinch bolt torque to effect feel is an absolutely terrible idea, but that's a different topic. 

But let's look at what's really happening here. I think most everyone could agree that the spacers themselves do nothing to the feel and are just along for the ride. If anything is changing the feel (let me reiterate, it's not!), it would be the reduced thread engagement, or smaller amount of bolt length in the clamp. Keefer was on mcmaster.com to buy these spacers, why didn't he just buy shorter bolts to do the same thing?!

You could make the argument that a lower bolt length (essentially a steel rod) engaged in the triple clamp will reduce the stiffness in that area. And that's true! BUT, that area of the triple clamp is super stiff already. Taking a small amount of stiffness out of a really stiff area results in... a really stiff area still. The miniscule amount of flex occurring here is far overshadowed by the flex in the rest of the triple clamp and other parts on the bike. This is such a negligible change that there's no effective overall change in stiffness to feel. 

I'm sure someone will be along soon to disagree, or Keefer will use his tagline of "I know what I feel", but I assure you, it's quite the opposite. He doesn't know what he feels. That's what a (real) engineer is for. Keefer is a good test rider and he might actually feel something different. But I guarantee it's not the stiffness change due to these spacers. It's more than likely mental or one of the many other changes mentioned above.  

I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope):

"The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike is used and this IS where the changes should be felt and assessed.

To Luxon's point - Are there other variables in play? Absolutely. Is it hard (if not impossible) to isolate all of the combined effects? No question. But to discount something a test rider is feeling when they are the "feel" experts? Bad idea ...

Many of us here have deep technical backgrounds of all kinds and most understand the need for an open mind - because usually the things we don't yet understand are not ... well, understood yet.

How many times have you heard "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE / THAT CAN'T HAPPEN! ... oh wait, the model was wrong ... oh wait, that feature was suppressed, oh wait <insert an infinite # of other unanticipated reasons>  ... on and on. I smile every time I hear something Ike that ^^^ or "absurd" or whatever other word the engineer with limited tact chooses. "Stupid" is a good one, too. It never fails that someone bold enough to call others and their ideas stupid is ... well ... I digress.

Your product testers, in this case test riders, should absolutely be listened to. THEY ARE YOUR LIFELINE! Only they can help truly expose the real-world performance "feel" that WE, yes WE, analysts and CAD jockeys can only dream of. Can you ride at the level of Keefer or other factory test riders? Do you think if they can't explain in technical terms that meet an engineer's standards then what they're sensing isn't real? That's crazy thinking ... actually stupid thinking. 😁

I don't know Keefer from Adam, but you can bet your azz that when an expert product tester senses a change, you best listen and have an open mind. Your humility will help you solve problems that others still think are impossible.

Who am I to preach? I'm a VitalMX member, dammit, that's who!

(have a good night guys)

 

3
3
7/23/2023 11:56pm Edited Date/Time 7/24/2023 12:04am
DDMX18 wrote:
 Anyone notice the revised air intake on the MXGP bikes, looks like they're searching for more air

20230722 084844-1-1280x720

 Anyone notice the revised air intake on the MXGP bikes, looks like they're searching for more air

Hasn't everyone, including forum member JM485, been building some sort of solution to get more air into these for years? And this is not really a Yamaha thing. I've seen countless Austrian/Honda/Kawi "more holes in the box" solutions on the racebikes.

2
VPG43
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NL
7/24/2023 9:47am

Anyone who can give the size of the OEM piston pin? Had my bike apart, but forgot to write down the size 🙃 I’m going to replace the OEM pin soon. I don’t trust it anymore.. 

VPG43
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NL
7/24/2023 9:49am

And does anyone know when the 2024 YZ’s will be introduced?

Moto520
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Schaumburg, IL US
7/24/2023 1:10pm
dr.evil wrote:
Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which...

Update: mapping switch did nothing to solve the "under load" mid range burble.  Only shows problem under load.  Going across a flat doesn't show issue which is weird.  Anyone having any of the same issues and has come up with a fix?

My close friend is having the same issue.  The bike gurgles under load enough to feel unsafe.  After a gurgle yesterday.....the bike's RPM went up and sent him into another rider.  Anyone find the solution to this?  Map switch was changed for  a new one....still has the problem.  

Luxon MX
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Fantasy
7/24/2023 1:36pm
Rider 5280 wrote:
I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope): "The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike...

I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope):

"The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike is used and this IS where the changes should be felt and assessed.

To Luxon's point - Are there other variables in play? Absolutely. Is it hard (if not impossible) to isolate all of the combined effects? No question. But to discount something a test rider is feeling when they are the "feel" experts? Bad idea ...

Many of us here have deep technical backgrounds of all kinds and most understand the need for an open mind - because usually the things we don't yet understand are not ... well, understood yet.

How many times have you heard "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE / THAT CAN'T HAPPEN! ... oh wait, the model was wrong ... oh wait, that feature was suppressed, oh wait <insert an infinite # of other unanticipated reasons>  ... on and on. I smile every time I hear something Ike that ^^^ or "absurd" or whatever other word the engineer with limited tact chooses. "Stupid" is a good one, too. It never fails that someone bold enough to call others and their ideas stupid is ... well ... I digress.

Your product testers, in this case test riders, should absolutely be listened to. THEY ARE YOUR LIFELINE! Only they can help truly expose the real-world performance "feel" that WE, yes WE, analysts and CAD jockeys can only dream of. Can you ride at the level of Keefer or other factory test riders? Do you think if they can't explain in technical terms that meet an engineer's standards then what they're sensing isn't real? That's crazy thinking ... actually stupid thinking. 😁

I don't know Keefer from Adam, but you can bet your azz that when an expert product tester senses a change, you best listen and have an open mind. Your humility will help you solve problems that others still think are impossible.

Who am I to preach? I'm a VitalMX member, dammit, that's who!

(have a good night guys)

 

You're right, there is no problem with track testing; it's incredibly valuable actually. The problem is in using track testing to definitively conclude that a particular change resulted in a difference in feel simply because something different was "felt". Many times it's quite reasonable to conclude this, particularly if a change is well known and expected to create a different feel. Sometimes it's not (as is the case in question here). The job of the test rider is to relay the change in feel to the engineer. The engineer concludes what changed the feel. But moto isn't exactly at F1 standards of engineering and testing, so here we are debating triple clamp spacers on an internet forum...

It's funny that there's typically no burden of proof for the moto test rider. They simply have to "feel" something, make a conclusion, then tell the world. Simple as that. If they feel it, then it must be true (in some people's eyes, at least). 

But if a mechanical engineer says something, it better be backed up with evidence! Who dares go against the great Keefer!? You better have numbers, established scientific theory, analysis, etc. Even then, there will be many who doubt the evidence. And because I'm not as fast as Keefer, what does my opinion matter anyway? LOL

There are many times when engineers have been wrong. I've been wrong my share of times. But those times are typically in rather complex engineering scenarios. Adding spacers to the triple clamp bolts is not even remotely close to one of those situations. This isn't a scenario that's baffled engineers and scientists for centuries, it's arguably quite stupid!  

Anyway, I'm open to debating this further if anyone likes. But if so, we should make a dedicated thread about it rather than moving this one further off topic.

5
3
DB97
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Orlando, FL US
7/24/2023 1:43pm
VPG43 wrote:

And does anyone know when the 2024 YZ’s will be introduced?

Wednesday 

VPG43
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NL
7/24/2023 1:49pm
VPG43 wrote:

And does anyone know when the 2024 YZ’s will be introduced?

DB97 wrote:

Wednesday 

Curious on what have been changed on the 450… probably just some mapping en graphics.

tek14
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Vantaa FI
7/24/2023 2:14pm

IMG 9264IMG 9263.jpeg?VersionId=qpyrGZ8 Bq96psDogF

 Seewer had swingarm with plates welded and new airbox cover to get more air in Lommel round.

 

1
JM485
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Davis, CA US
7/24/2023 2:29pm
Rider 5280 wrote:
I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope): "The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike...

I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope):

"The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike is used and this IS where the changes should be felt and assessed.

To Luxon's point - Are there other variables in play? Absolutely. Is it hard (if not impossible) to isolate all of the combined effects? No question. But to discount something a test rider is feeling when they are the "feel" experts? Bad idea ...

Many of us here have deep technical backgrounds of all kinds and most understand the need for an open mind - because usually the things we don't yet understand are not ... well, understood yet.

How many times have you heard "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE / THAT CAN'T HAPPEN! ... oh wait, the model was wrong ... oh wait, that feature was suppressed, oh wait <insert an infinite # of other unanticipated reasons>  ... on and on. I smile every time I hear something Ike that ^^^ or "absurd" or whatever other word the engineer with limited tact chooses. "Stupid" is a good one, too. It never fails that someone bold enough to call others and their ideas stupid is ... well ... I digress.

Your product testers, in this case test riders, should absolutely be listened to. THEY ARE YOUR LIFELINE! Only they can help truly expose the real-world performance "feel" that WE, yes WE, analysts and CAD jockeys can only dream of. Can you ride at the level of Keefer or other factory test riders? Do you think if they can't explain in technical terms that meet an engineer's standards then what they're sensing isn't real? That's crazy thinking ... actually stupid thinking. 😁

I don't know Keefer from Adam, but you can bet your azz that when an expert product tester senses a change, you best listen and have an open mind. Your humility will help you solve problems that others still think are impossible.

Who am I to preach? I'm a VitalMX member, dammit, that's who!

(have a good night guys)

 

There’s a difference between humility and stupidity, you have to pick and choose your battles.  Nobody is going to waste their time debating someone about the color of the sky because it’s a known entity, just like the effect of stacking washers under a bolt head is a known entity and well understood.  There isn’t wiggle room or grey area here, it’s cut and dry and there’s no interpretation left to debate.  If you want to go against what is accepted engineering doctrine just because a test rider told you something that goes against it then have at it, you’re going to end up confused and wasting a lot of time going in endless directions and chasing your tail.  
 

Like Billy said, the lack of burned of proof put in test riders is a little bit crazy.  If you give someone blindfolded a thin bar and a thick bar, ask them to bend it, and they tell you that the thin bar is harder to bend (assuming similar material), are you going to put a lot of stock in their results just because they said so or would you use your brain and reason that they might be off on this instance?  Feedback is valuable but common sense needs to win out at the end of the day.  We don’t build bridges based on gut feel for a reason. . .

swaldrop
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Tampa, FL US
7/24/2023 2:41pm

I wish Keefer would chime in and just admit he has no idea what he’s taking about and tell you guys how much smarter you are than he is. Maybe that would do it?

8
7/25/2023 12:24am

Anyone know if the fmf 4.1 silencer for the 2022 fits the 2023

2
chump6784
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AU
7/25/2023 12:39am

I was in my local bike shop today, owner was telling me a local vet pro just had the rod snap in his 23 yz450f and come out of the cases. I'm not sure how many hours are on the bike but yamaha wanted nothing to do with it. He ended up buying a 2 stroke

greg570
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292
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Location
SK
7/25/2023 5:44am
chump6784 wrote:
I was in my local bike shop today, owner was telling me a local vet pro just had the rod snap in his 23 yz450f and...

I was in my local bike shop today, owner was telling me a local vet pro just had the rod snap in his 23 yz450f and come out of the cases. I'm not sure how many hours are on the bike but yamaha wanted nothing to do with it. He ended up buying a 2 stroke

And then you read in mxa that yzf450 is the most reliable bike of them all. Wanted to change from austria but reading this stuff the change is off the table.

chump6784
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AU
7/25/2023 2:22pm
chump6784 wrote:
I was in my local bike shop today, owner was telling me a local vet pro just had the rod snap in his 23 yz450f and...

I was in my local bike shop today, owner was telling me a local vet pro just had the rod snap in his 23 yz450f and come out of the cases. I'm not sure how many hours are on the bike but yamaha wanted nothing to do with it. He ended up buying a 2 stroke

greg570 wrote:
And then you read in mxa that yzf450 is the most reliable bike of them all. Wanted to change from austria but reading this stuff the...

And then you read in mxa that yzf450 is the most reliable bike of them all. Wanted to change from austria but reading this stuff the change is off the table.

I've noticed that when MXA gets a theme in their head they run with it for what seems like forever.  I've got a 21 yz450f and have been on Yamaha's for the last 10 years but now I'm looking at other brands for my next bike due to these issues

1
Rider 5280
Posts
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Location
Denver Metro, CO US
7/25/2023 5:35pm Edited Date/Time 7/25/2023 5:54pm
Rider 5280 wrote:
I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope): "The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike...

I am going to add a little comic relief + introspection (I hope):

"The problem with track testing is ..." NOTHING. This IS where the bike is used and this IS where the changes should be felt and assessed.

To Luxon's point - Are there other variables in play? Absolutely. Is it hard (if not impossible) to isolate all of the combined effects? No question. But to discount something a test rider is feeling when they are the "feel" experts? Bad idea ...

Many of us here have deep technical backgrounds of all kinds and most understand the need for an open mind - because usually the things we don't yet understand are not ... well, understood yet.

How many times have you heard "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE / THAT CAN'T HAPPEN! ... oh wait, the model was wrong ... oh wait, that feature was suppressed, oh wait <insert an infinite # of other unanticipated reasons>  ... on and on. I smile every time I hear something Ike that ^^^ or "absurd" or whatever other word the engineer with limited tact chooses. "Stupid" is a good one, too. It never fails that someone bold enough to call others and their ideas stupid is ... well ... I digress.

Your product testers, in this case test riders, should absolutely be listened to. THEY ARE YOUR LIFELINE! Only they can help truly expose the real-world performance "feel" that WE, yes WE, analysts and CAD jockeys can only dream of. Can you ride at the level of Keefer or other factory test riders? Do you think if they can't explain in technical terms that meet an engineer's standards then what they're sensing isn't real? That's crazy thinking ... actually stupid thinking. 😁

I don't know Keefer from Adam, but you can bet your azz that when an expert product tester senses a change, you best listen and have an open mind. Your humility will help you solve problems that others still think are impossible.

Who am I to preach? I'm a VitalMX member, dammit, that's who!

(have a good night guys)

 

Luxon MX wrote:
You're right, there is no problem with track testing; it's incredibly valuable actually. The problem is in using track testing to definitively conclude that a particular...

You're right, there is no problem with track testing; it's incredibly valuable actually. The problem is in using track testing to definitively conclude that a particular change resulted in a difference in feel simply because something different was "felt". Many times it's quite reasonable to conclude this, particularly if a change is well known and expected to create a different feel. Sometimes it's not (as is the case in question here). The job of the test rider is to relay the change in feel to the engineer. The engineer concludes what changed the feel. But moto isn't exactly at F1 standards of engineering and testing, so here we are debating triple clamp spacers on an internet forum...

It's funny that there's typically no burden of proof for the moto test rider. They simply have to "feel" something, make a conclusion, then tell the world. Simple as that. If they feel it, then it must be true (in some people's eyes, at least). 

But if a mechanical engineer says something, it better be backed up with evidence! Who dares go against the great Keefer!? You better have numbers, established scientific theory, analysis, etc. Even then, there will be many who doubt the evidence. And because I'm not as fast as Keefer, what does my opinion matter anyway? LOL

There are many times when engineers have been wrong. I've been wrong my share of times. But those times are typically in rather complex engineering scenarios. Adding spacers to the triple clamp bolts is not even remotely close to one of those situations. This isn't a scenario that's baffled engineers and scientists for centuries, it's arguably quite stupid!  

Anyway, I'm open to debating this further if anyone likes. But if so, we should make a dedicated thread about it rather than moving this one further off topic.

You missed my point.

This is not a "we vs. them" argument.

I was kindly trying to say: be respectful, listen, and you might improve your craft - because around most corners are surprises. Teamwork makes the dream work - embrace the feedback of others you don't necessarily agree with and use it as a calibration. There's value there, really!

To be honest, I was rying to throw you a bone. An opportunity to take the high road and not turn me and others off of your company because I think your products are innovative and the industry can always use this.

But instead you went down this "burden of proof" hole and opened things up further. You use words like "stupid" and "absurd," etc. Strong company leaders don't do that. So don't. Help us help you grow - and up the professionalism.

Stop digging and continue some kicka$$ engineering.

The only reason I even waste my time with a response like this is that I often mentor engineers and engineering management. It's a serious disservice to them to perpetuate this "us vs. them" mentality - especially given many in this forum are going to school now to be MEs, EEs, etc. Everyone on the development team has value and biases, embrace them and make them superpowers. You can - it works - and it works amazingly! This is the last I will say on this, but I lost a lot of respect when you started slinging mud. Not cool - regardless of your opinion. Instead use your intelligence to offer another point of view and promote collaboration, not division. If you grow your company much, your demeanor and treatment of dissention will be CRITICAL to your success. Trust me.

DM me if you want to discuss this further.

 

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7/25/2023 6:19pm Edited Date/Time 7/25/2023 7:53pm

1 more thought regarding your business:

There are people on these forums with significant influence regarding outsourcing of engineering. Let's take Illumina as an example. Let's say you're contacted by Supply Chain as a potential outsourcing option for a subsystem for the NovaSeq X product line. The Supply Chain guy contacts the Director of Engineering and says here are a few design houses that may be able to help. The DoE says "Luxon? I think he does moto parts, too. Interesting, but he seems difficult to work with. I don't want to be arguing with our partner about design decisions our organization made a long time ago that he doesn't agree with. I just need this design fixed. Next." And just like that, you're out.

Summary: There seems to be many facets to consider.

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