300 cc two strokes for 250 class in nationals?

So how about this for a change, 300 two strokes for the 250 class. It would be great to see an inverse of what brought us the "4 stroke revolution" Not close to the advantage it gave thumpers,  which was 2-1,just an added 50cc.

I would even go as far to say that the 4 stokes would still win as they have the best riders,tech's, management and training.But it would give privateers a chance once in a while. I have to say that the 250 class rules are really stupid in that they cater to the factories and you can see this in real time that many are changing engines between moto's and these thing rev to the moon and anyone will tell you revs cost cash. Whats an engine budget for a pro 250 effort? I would just guess at least $100.000.00 if you include buying the engines and all the rebuilds during the season and then practice and testing etc.

What do you think? It looks like a privateer has a way better chance in the 450 class as they have abundant HP, but I don't think it is wise to put young kids on 450's to start with and they should be on a smaller lighter bike. This is after all, the feeder class for up and comers.

2
5
|
7/10/2023 3:40pm

With the puppet in charge, that will never happen.. doesn't hurt to dream I suppose. 

10
4
JM825
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7/10/2023 3:50pm

Even just allowing 250 2-strokes in the 250 class would be awesome. Who knows how many racers would make the switch to the 2T, but it at least would give them the option. Unfortunately I don’t see it happening, but it doesn’t hurt to dream 😂

17
mx4
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7/10/2023 4:44pm

The AMA displacement rule is more jacked up than Mountain Dew. 
 

 

7
1

The Shop

Radical
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7/10/2023 7:11pm
mx4 wrote:

The AMA displacement rule is more jacked up than Mountain Dew. 
 

 

Hey! Don't be doggin' on my Mountain Dew!

Seriously, did you know it actually has orange juice in it?

1
1
Radical
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7/10/2023 7:14pm

Increasing displacement is the last thing we should do.

Literally all motorsports manage top speed. When Nascar and Indy cars start hitting a certain speed, they lower the displacement limits.  We should do the same.

125 2 stroke, and 250 2 stroke should be the standard today, with 4 stroke displacements limited to approximately match the horsepower of the 125 and 250 2 strokes.

7
5
burn1986
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bossier city, LA, USA
7/10/2023 7:19pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2023 7:20pm
So how about this for a change, 300 two strokes for the 250 class. It would be great to see an inverse of what brought us...

So how about this for a change, 300 two strokes for the 250 class. It would be great to see an inverse of what brought us the "4 stroke revolution" Not close to the advantage it gave thumpers,  which was 2-1,just an added 50cc.

I would even go as far to say that the 4 stokes would still win as they have the best riders,tech's, management and training.But it would give privateers a chance once in a while. I have to say that the 250 class rules are really stupid in that they cater to the factories and you can see this in real time that many are changing engines between moto's and these thing rev to the moon and anyone will tell you revs cost cash. Whats an engine budget for a pro 250 effort? I would just guess at least $100.000.00 if you include buying the engines and all the rebuilds during the season and then practice and testing etc.

What do you think? It looks like a privateer has a way better chance in the 450 class as they have abundant HP, but I don't think it is wise to put young kids on 450's to start with and they should be on a smaller lighter bike. This is after all, the feeder class for up and comers.

Honda will pull out if that happens. The OEMs will follow Honda like sheep.

And it’s basically too late for this anyway. 

 

1911
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7/10/2023 8:36pm
So how about this for a change, 300 two strokes for the 250 class. It would be great to see an inverse of what brought us...

So how about this for a change, 300 two strokes for the 250 class. It would be great to see an inverse of what brought us the "4 stroke revolution" Not close to the advantage it gave thumpers,  which was 2-1,just an added 50cc.

I would even go as far to say that the 4 stokes would still win as they have the best riders,tech's, management and training.But it would give privateers a chance once in a while. I have to say that the 250 class rules are really stupid in that they cater to the factories and you can see this in real time that many are changing engines between moto's and these thing rev to the moon and anyone will tell you revs cost cash. Whats an engine budget for a pro 250 effort? I would just guess at least $100.000.00 if you include buying the engines and all the rebuilds during the season and then practice and testing etc.

What do you think? It looks like a privateer has a way better chance in the 450 class as they have abundant HP, but I don't think it is wise to put young kids on 450's to start with and they should be on a smaller lighter bike. This is after all, the feeder class for up and comers.

burn1986 wrote:

Honda will pull out if that happens. The OEMs will follow Honda like sheep.

And it’s basically too late for this anyway. 

 

America road racing is a shell of what it once was. This is what happened last time the AMA tried to tell Honda what’s up. Honda and the other manufacturers TOLD the AMA what was up. 

1
7/10/2023 10:10pm

Doesn’t anyone remember. They wanted to make Mx like f1.  Only the rich would be invited to the show.  I,ll hv a 04 cr125 up against 250& 450,s here soon. Stay tuned  for all the action. 

1
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Bearuno
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7/10/2023 11:43pm Edited Date/Time 7/10/2023 11:44pm

300cc 2 Strokes against 250 Four Strokes?

F**K No!

I will Never support any  kind of capacity advantage being given to any type of ICE engine. 

Equivalency is what it Should be. Full F**king stop.

To suggest a capacity advantage now for 2 strokes, well, it's just as wrong as the 2 X and 1.75 X rules favouring 4 strokes that we have had now, for decades.

4
CPR
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7/11/2023 12:26am

Australia and Canada have allowed 250cc two strokes in the 250cc class (wild concept!) for years, but after awhile all the factory teams (running 4t’s) started whinging about the 2t’s pulling them on the start when good traction was available.
That resulted in rule changes with the 2t engine internals having to be standard. No way on earth they’d allow a 300cc. Equal rights is the best we can ask for.

7
Gukamonster
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7/11/2023 4:22am

You cannot even legally race a 300cc 2 stroke against 450s, or even a 150cc 2 stroke against the 250s.  Even that is considered too extreme.

There has less than zero enthusiasm to even slightly modify and accomodate the 2 stroke in professional racing for more than 20 years now.  The unleaded fuel rule, and ridiculous displacement advantage make it hopelessly uncompetitive.

The last change made to the rules was now 20 years ago for the 2003 season where the 4 stroke displacement rule was lowered from 550cc to 450cc for what is now the 450 class.  In 2002, even a 40 year old Guy Cooper came out of retirement and rode a reported 70+ horsepower KTM540 in the nationals and holeshotted motos.  

https://www.motorcycledaily.com/2002/04/24april02cooperandktm/

The AMA amateur racing governing body allowed equal 250 (2 stroke) versus 250 (4 stroke) at the end of 2007.  After the big financial crisis in late 2008, it was lightly suggested to look into adopting this same rule for pro racing for 2009.  At the time it was reported that Honda threw an absolute fit and threatened to pull all support for american pro motocross if the rule was brought in.

There is room for both.  Jody of MXA summarized it very well not long ago.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/manifesto-of-an-unrepentant-two-stroke-a…

4
7/11/2023 5:35am

Different strokes for different folks but equal displacement for all!

6
7/11/2023 5:55am

Wow, lots of different opinions but the main jist of this was the cost to compete compared to when it was a two stroke series.

The 300 vs. 250 title was a jab at the original rules formula and I do understand that only the KTM group and Yamaha make 250 two strokes. But what can be done in this feeder series to reverse the trend of only wealthy kids, or should I say wealthy parents and grand parents being able to afford to race against the factory teams.

How about an engine rule where you only get x amount of engines for the year, they do this in F1 and Moto GP and those are the top end series. Or maybe just stock engines. Or how about a 125 series where the winner gets a full ride in the 250 class? Lots of different ways to skin a cat. Lets here your options so this sport does not degenerate into a RKR series. ( rich kid racing). It used to take a millionaire dad to get his son into F1 in the 80's now it takes a billionaire dad! ( Lance Stroll and Nickolas Latifi come to mind).

And about Honda pulling out of MX, really? They pulled out of F1 when they already spent millions developing a great car and Ross Brawn took it over and won the championship with their car and a Mercedes engine, They then pulled out again and now Red Bull is dominating. F1 is at an all time high popularity wise with no Honda. In Moto GP Honda is the worst bike on the grid. This is not the same Honda motor company since the old man died. I reference Ricky Carmichael and Valentino Rossi who they let get away.If they leave MX it will not matter as we have Triumph and Ducati coming or at least possibility coming in. 

And just to set the record straight about American road racing, it was the wizards from the France family along with the AMA that ruined it but Wayne Rainey is doing a great job in rebuilding the series. I mean Honda can't even win a WSBK race.

If you sense I am anti Honda, I did have an 82 CR 480R that as one of the worst MX bikes ever made! But I do love the "Old" Honda company that had 22,000 rpm engines and came to the Isle of Mann and dominated in short order.

5
burn1986
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bossier city, LA, USA
7/11/2023 11:10am
You cannot even legally race a 300cc 2 stroke against 450s, or even a 150cc 2 stroke against the 250s.  Even that is considered too extreme...

You cannot even legally race a 300cc 2 stroke against 450s, or even a 150cc 2 stroke against the 250s.  Even that is considered too extreme.

There has less than zero enthusiasm to even slightly modify and accomodate the 2 stroke in professional racing for more than 20 years now.  The unleaded fuel rule, and ridiculous displacement advantage make it hopelessly uncompetitive.

The last change made to the rules was now 20 years ago for the 2003 season where the 4 stroke displacement rule was lowered from 550cc to 450cc for what is now the 450 class.  In 2002, even a 40 year old Guy Cooper came out of retirement and rode a reported 70+ horsepower KTM540 in the nationals and holeshotted motos.  

https://www.motorcycledaily.com/2002/04/24april02cooperandktm/

The AMA amateur racing governing body allowed equal 250 (2 stroke) versus 250 (4 stroke) at the end of 2007.  After the big financial crisis in late 2008, it was lightly suggested to look into adopting this same rule for pro racing for 2009.  At the time it was reported that Honda threw an absolute fit and threatened to pull all support for american pro motocross if the rule was brought in.

There is room for both.  Jody of MXA summarized it very well not long ago.

https://motocrossactionmag.com/manifesto-of-an-unrepentant-two-stroke-a…

Good finds 👍

ROCKNDAWG
Posts
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Joined
9/9/2014
Location
Kingman, AZ, USA
7/11/2023 11:38am

I would be happy with just 300 2 Strokes being allowed in the 450 class. They should really do that one, to make it fairer to 2 strokes plus now a decent amount of companies make 300!. Come on AMA do the right thing!

1
mx4
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Location
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7/13/2023 9:06pm
mx4 wrote:

The AMA displacement rule is more jacked up than Mountain Dew. 
 

 

Radical wrote:

Hey! Don't be doggin' on my Mountain Dew!

Seriously, did you know it actually has orange juice in it?

No, and I love OJ

1
7/14/2023 4:21am

Too bad the pros don’t have an open modified class.

GangGreen
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7/14/2023 9:28am
Radical wrote:
Increasing displacement is the last thing we should do. Literally all motorsports manage top speed. When Nascar and Indy cars start hitting a certain speed, they...

Increasing displacement is the last thing we should do.

Literally all motorsports manage top speed. When Nascar and Indy cars start hitting a certain speed, they lower the displacement limits.  We should do the same.

125 2 stroke, and 250 2 stroke should be the standard today, with 4 stroke displacements limited to approximately match the horsepower of the 125 and 250 2 strokes.

Four-strokes are NOT better, they are given a ridiculous double-displacement advantage. These will go down as the dark ages of MX, being that MX Sports keeps in place in Professional Racing that ridiculous rule, inadvertently killing the BEST PLATFORM EVER, the 250cc two-stroke.

s1200 Cudby Pic.jpg?VersionId=

 

2
7/14/2023 9:40am Edited Date/Time 7/14/2023 9:48am

If it is a true developmental class, keep the two stroke displacement roughly where it is, and make it 125cc (or 150cc) 2/4 stroke. 

Then make the 450 class actually open/premiere with no displacement or type limits.

1

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