If titles are so important, why do manufacturers often drop riders after great seasons?

RCMartin406
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Edited Date/Time 6/8/2023 10:36am

Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I can think of atm. I’m sure most of it is because there’s younger talented kids waiting their turn, but man SX/MX is a fickle game!

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GrapeApe
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6/8/2023 10:39am Edited Date/Time 6/8/2023 10:39am

MC wasn't going to race the aluminum framed CR

JS wasn't going to give up Red Bull for Monster

I don't remember what the deal was with CR?

RV retired

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ML512
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6/8/2023 10:39am Edited Date/Time 6/8/2023 10:45am
Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I...

Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I can think of atm. I’m sure most of it is because there’s younger talented kids waiting their turn, but man SX/MX is a fickle game!

McGrath chose to leave Honda due to his dislike of the upcoming 1997 CR250R aluminum frame bike. RC's was a weird case of Honda sorta low-balling him/going after Stew. Kawasaki and Stew weren't seeing eye-to-eye at the end of 2008, Kawi was Monster and Stew wanted to return to Red Bull, and no return offer was made. Monster made a huge push to get Reed to Kawasaki in 2010 as they were making a huge push in Australia...Reed was racing the AusSX series during the offseason at the time, etc... RV retired as you stated and Honda wanted to keep Sexton but ultimately it's his choice to depart to KTM.

Of your list, the only one who might be classified as dropped, as there was little or no effort made to retain him, was James Stewart at the end of 08 with Kawasaki.

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RCMartin406
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6/8/2023 10:42am

Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the next 3 years. They would’ve dominated both classes for years!

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Village Idiot
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6/8/2023 10:43am
Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I...

Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I can think of atm. I’m sure most of it is because there’s younger talented kids waiting their turn, but man SX/MX is a fickle game!

ML512 wrote:
McGrath chose to leave Honda due to his dislike of the upcoming 1997 CR250R aluminum frame bike. RC's was a weird case of Honda sorta low-balling...

McGrath chose to leave Honda due to his dislike of the upcoming 1997 CR250R aluminum frame bike. RC's was a weird case of Honda sorta low-balling him/going after Stew. Kawasaki and Stew weren't seeing eye-to-eye at the end of 2008, Kawi was Monster and Stew wanted to return to Red Bull, and no return offer was made. Monster made a huge push to get Reed to Kawasaki in 2010 as they were making a huge push in Australia...Reed was racing the AusSX series during the offseason at the time, etc... RV retired as you stated and Honda wanted to keep Sexton but ultimately it's his choice to depart to KTM.

Of your list, the only one who might be classified as dropped, as there was little or no effort made to retain him, was James Stewart at the end of 08 with Kawasaki.

RC has also said he felt slighted because of Honda's offer/attitude when his knee injury kept him out of SX. So, as soon as he came back, he hung a perfect MX season on everyone and then took Suzuki's offer as a way of letting Honda know how he felt about their faith in him.

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Falcon
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6/8/2023 10:45am

It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his contract, but they have to step up and pay. In the case of Jeremy McGrath, he didn't want to stay at Honda - the '97 bike sucked. How much would you throw at a rider who doesn't even want to be there? A million dollars? Two million? Ten million? And the result would be what? A rider getting paid a lot while riding for a team he resents? Not a great recipe for success. 
In Honda's case in 1997, they ended up looking pretty good: MC lost the title the very first year he tried a different brand. 

In cases where the OEM drops a rider who won a title for them, I think that's just plain old budget constraints. That, or they only have room for one of two guys, and they think the new guy is the better choice. 

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Titan1
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6/8/2023 10:47am

I think its because they are always trying to predict the future...both how long current contracted riders can stay on top, and who will be the next top dog to replace them. 

 

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RCMartin406
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6/8/2023 10:49am
Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I...

Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I can think of atm. I’m sure most of it is because there’s younger talented kids waiting their turn, but man SX/MX is a fickle game!

ML512 wrote:
McGrath chose to leave Honda due to his dislike of the upcoming 1997 CR250R aluminum frame bike. RC's was a weird case of Honda sorta low-balling...

McGrath chose to leave Honda due to his dislike of the upcoming 1997 CR250R aluminum frame bike. RC's was a weird case of Honda sorta low-balling him/going after Stew. Kawasaki and Stew weren't seeing eye-to-eye at the end of 2008, Kawi was Monster and Stew wanted to return to Red Bull, and no return offer was made. Monster made a huge push to get Reed to Kawasaki in 2010 as they were making a huge push in Australia...Reed was racing the AusSX series during the offseason at the time, etc... RV retired as you stated and Honda wanted to keep Sexton but ultimately it's his choice to depart to KTM.

Of your list, the only one who might be classified as dropped, as there was little or no effort made to retain him, was James Stewart at the end of 08 with Kawasaki.

So money and politics, like everything else lol. Yeah, but like I said, If titles are the main goal, you would think some rules could be bent, or exceptions made.

Village Idiot
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6/8/2023 10:49am
Falcon wrote:
It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his...

It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his contract, but they have to step up and pay. In the case of Jeremy McGrath, he didn't want to stay at Honda - the '97 bike sucked. How much would you throw at a rider who doesn't even want to be there? A million dollars? Two million? Ten million? And the result would be what? A rider getting paid a lot while riding for a team he resents? Not a great recipe for success. 
In Honda's case in 1997, they ended up looking pretty good: MC lost the title the very first year he tried a different brand. 

In cases where the OEM drops a rider who won a title for them, I think that's just plain old budget constraints. That, or they only have room for one of two guys, and they think the new guy is the better choice. 

A manufacturer has never been so thankful for a flat tire as Honda was for the one MC got on that Suzuki.

Emig was also on that thankful list.

wwdiii
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6/8/2023 11:40am

It’s just business.   I was told one year by my manager if I blew my quota out again and ended up 200 percent of plan we’d both be fired.  I ended up 181 percent of plan.  They paid me but didn’t like it.  Companies at times would rather lose sales then pay commission.  Racing, sales it doesn’t mater a guy can get canned for doing a good job.  It’s just the way it is.  Companies don’t like to payout big pay checks.  

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ajv#26
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6/8/2023 11:52am

TC222 drop by Yamaha on the end off 2009(?) season... 

ando
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6/8/2023 12:11pm
So money and politics, like everything else lol. Yeah, but like I said, If titles are the main goal, you would think some rules could be...

So money and politics, like everything else lol. Yeah, but like I said, If titles are the main goal, you would think some rules could be bent, or exceptions made.

Titles aren’t the main goal; selling bikes is.  In any given year each manufacturer will have a different equation regarding racing expenditure and expected return.  That will dictate first and foremost whether they can afford to keep a rider.  Throw in sponsor clashes, diverging views on bike design/performance, injuries etc and there is naturally going be churn.

I don’t think there are many people these days who believe in the old “win on Sunday, sell on Monday” mantra.

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FreshTopEnd
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6/8/2023 12:50pm
Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the...

Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the next 3 years. They would’ve dominated both classes for years!

RC said at then time as well Kawasaki was behind in its 450 development, which eventually ruined Stew's first outdoor 450 year.

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FreshTopEnd
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6/8/2023 12:58pm
Falcon wrote:
It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his...

It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his contract, but they have to step up and pay. In the case of Jeremy McGrath, he didn't want to stay at Honda - the '97 bike sucked. How much would you throw at a rider who doesn't even want to be there? A million dollars? Two million? Ten million? And the result would be what? A rider getting paid a lot while riding for a team he resents? Not a great recipe for success. 
In Honda's case in 1997, they ended up looking pretty good: MC lost the title the very first year he tried a different brand. 

In cases where the OEM drops a rider who won a title for them, I think that's just plain old budget constraints. That, or they only have room for one of two guys, and they think the new guy is the better choice. 

Honda was kidding themselves if they thought that they came out okay because MC lost.  At least as likely was the impression that MC must have thought the new bike was garbage to walk to a lesser bike like the Suzuki was then.

And they lost in 97 and did not sniff the title again until they bought RC.

 

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ando
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6/8/2023 1:36pm

Reed’s deal with Suzuki in 09 was only ever a one year deal, and even then it was only for SX.  The outdoors was a last minute arrangement.

It’s not just OEMs - Reed left L&M Yamaha after winning SX in 08.

Honda seem content to go with solid riders who are good brand ambassadors and deliver value rather than throw money at winning titles.

You could also add Dungey to the list - peeled off 4 straight titles in 09 and 10, and only lost 2011 MX by a few points after the bike failed at Freestone.  Went to KTM in 2012.

 

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Zoom
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6/8/2023 1:44pm

Its also that way in team sports, NFL, MLB, NBA etc. Many times a year after a championship a team will clean house knowing they can't resign most of the top athletes and stay within budget. Right after they win a championship, whether its MX or team sports, they are already looking to rebuild to make another run. Sometimes its the next year, sometimes its 5 or more years. 

Yes titles are important, and so is selling units. Gotta remember most of the brands out there sell more than dirt bikes. Its important to keep the brand name in front of the public. 

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TeamGreen
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6/8/2023 1:54pm
ando wrote:
Reed’s deal with Suzuki in 09 was only ever a one year deal, and even then it was only for SX.  The outdoors was a last...

Reed’s deal with Suzuki in 09 was only ever a one year deal, and even then it was only for SX.  The outdoors was a last minute arrangement.

It’s not just OEMs - Reed left L&M Yamaha after winning SX in 08.

Honda seem content to go with solid riders who are good brand ambassadors and deliver value rather than throw money at winning titles.

You could also add Dungey to the list - peeled off 4 straight titles in 09 and 10, and only lost 2011 MX by a few points after the bike failed at Freestone.  Went to KTM in 2012.

 

When Suzuki “reorganized” and put Roger on 1 year/year to year contracts…the writing was on the wall…

When he, Roger, went to KTM…well…Dungey was Roger’s guy & the rest is history. 

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NotCore
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6/8/2023 5:31pm

When someone establishes that they can win a title, competitive teams are envious, current team is satisfied.

Envy beats satisfaction every time.  In this case with dollars.

motomind132
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6/8/2023 5:49pm
ando wrote:
Reed’s deal with Suzuki in 09 was only ever a one year deal, and even then it was only for SX.  The outdoors was a last...

Reed’s deal with Suzuki in 09 was only ever a one year deal, and even then it was only for SX.  The outdoors was a last minute arrangement.

It’s not just OEMs - Reed left L&M Yamaha after winning SX in 08.

Honda seem content to go with solid riders who are good brand ambassadors and deliver value rather than throw money at winning titles.

You could also add Dungey to the list - peeled off 4 straight titles in 09 and 10, and only lost 2011 MX by a few points after the bike failed at Freestone.  Went to KTM in 2012.

 

Dunge was set to leave long before his Las Suzuki season started.

6/8/2023 7:41pm
Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the...

Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the next 3 years. They would’ve dominated both classes for years!

RC thought Hondas bike had more upside than the Kawasaki. 

6/8/2023 7:46pm
Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I...

Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I can think of atm. I’m sure most of it is because there’s younger talented kids waiting their turn, but man SX/MX is a fickle game!

Reeds Suzuki deal was for supercross only. Roger got Suzuki to give him support but no salary for outdoors, he did it because he funded his own bonus deal through insurance and made more than 4 million in doing so 

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Blackie59
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6/8/2023 7:48pm

Professional athletes are depreciated just like equipment. That’s why so many teams unload perfectly healthy and productive players. The business can’t write off any of the costs anymore so adios mi amigo.

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jeffro503
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6/8/2023 8:17pm

Championships are the end all / be all. That is the very thing each team strives for. Individual wins are great , but titles Are what count , and always have. 

PNWMXer
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6/8/2023 8:49pm

MCs departure was also due to Honda trying to essentially own and control his entire life via the proposed contract. Yes the bike sucked, and yes he would’ve been SOL on being able to run his beloved 93 frame, but there was more than just the beer can special 97 driving his departure.

If he’d have had a mechanic in 97 that cared more about his bike than chasing a girl, odds are pretty good he’d have made Suzuki look really good and Honda look bad.

6/9/2023 12:25am
Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I...

Or let them get away? MC/Honda 96, RC/Honda 04, JS/Kawasaki 08, CR/Suzuki 09, RV/Kawasaki 14 but RV retired, CS/Honda 23, those are just the ones I can think of atm. I’m sure most of it is because there’s younger talented kids waiting their turn, but man SX/MX is a fickle game!

UpTiTe wrote:
Reeds Suzuki deal was for supercross only. Roger got Suzuki to give him support but no salary for outdoors, he did it because he funded his...

Reeds Suzuki deal was for supercross only. Roger got Suzuki to give him support but no salary for outdoors, he did it because he funded his own bonus deal through insurance and made more than 4 million in doing so 

This story has to be the best ever example of believing in yourself. What a guy!!

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6/9/2023 12:26am
PNWMXer wrote:
MCs departure was also due to Honda trying to essentially own and control his entire life via the proposed contract. Yes the bike sucked, and yes...

MCs departure was also due to Honda trying to essentially own and control his entire life via the proposed contract. Yes the bike sucked, and yes he would’ve been SOL on being able to run his beloved 93 frame, but there was more than just the beer can special 97 driving his departure.

If he’d have had a mechanic in 97 that cared more about his bike than chasing a girl, odds are pretty good he’d have made Suzuki look really good and Honda look bad.

Where is Wyatt now? What is he up to?

CPR
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6/9/2023 3:24am
Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the...

Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the next 3 years. They would’ve dominated both classes for years!

UpTiTe wrote:

RC thought Hondas bike had more upside than the Kawasaki. 

He also thought the Suzuki had more upside than the Honda in SX, and he was correct.

6/9/2023 4:58am
Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the...

Another one RC/Kawasaki 01. I can’t believe they let RC get away. I know they had James coming in 02 but on the 125 for the next 3 years. They would’ve dominated both classes for years!

UpTiTe wrote:

RC thought Hondas bike had more upside than the Kawasaki. 

CPR wrote:

He also thought the Suzuki had more upside than the Honda in SX, and he was correct.

That’s not true at all, he left Honda for money, he didn’t want to leave the Honda 450. 

Zoom
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6/9/2023 6:13am

Funny story from a conversation I had with Valentino Rossi. Back in my Parts Unlimited days I won a trip to Laguna Seca through an AGV sales contest. We got to spend lunch with Val on Thursday before the race. I asked him if he followed FIM MX or AMA MX or SX and if he had a favorite rider. This is what he had to say. You have to read this in his heavy Italian accent...

"I like Ricky Carmichael. Ricky and I both raced for Honda and Honda tell us both that Honda wins the Championship not the rider. So every time Ricky wins on Suzuki its like saying go to hell Honda and every time I win on Yamaha its like saying go to hell Honda."

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6/9/2023 6:25am

I wonder how much influence a brand (red bull/monster) has on a rider's OEM contract. With chase going to KTM, was it a push from RedBull to get him as well? 

Falcon
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6/9/2023 7:06am
Falcon wrote:
It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his...

It's mostly about money. There's a point at which most OEMs could force the champion to stay via the first right of refusal clause in his contract, but they have to step up and pay. In the case of Jeremy McGrath, he didn't want to stay at Honda - the '97 bike sucked. How much would you throw at a rider who doesn't even want to be there? A million dollars? Two million? Ten million? And the result would be what? A rider getting paid a lot while riding for a team he resents? Not a great recipe for success. 
In Honda's case in 1997, they ended up looking pretty good: MC lost the title the very first year he tried a different brand. 

In cases where the OEM drops a rider who won a title for them, I think that's just plain old budget constraints. That, or they only have room for one of two guys, and they think the new guy is the better choice. 

Honda was kidding themselves if they thought that they came out okay because MC lost.  At least as likely was the impression that MC must have...

Honda was kidding themselves if they thought that they came out okay because MC lost.  At least as likely was the impression that MC must have thought the new bike was garbage to walk to a lesser bike like the Suzuki was then.

And they lost in 97 and did not sniff the title again until they bought RC.

 

You and Village Idiot make great points, but at least Honda was able to spin it like, "See? McGrath was only winning because he had a Honda!" 

Of course, that unraveled for the next three years. 

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