Something about MXGP I don't understand (wins)

Agree 100%. Premier class wins hold much more weight in my opinion too.

The other thing I find odd in the table above is the 250cc stats. 250f stats should align with 125 results, not the old 250 2t class. They keep telling us 250 doesn’t equal 250.

It's only to fulfull the motive of herlings being the best.

But they do talk about combined more then the ama.

Also that list is a little off also for everts. Coz his 250 2stroke win are listed with mx2 wins. Where I still think they are premier class wins.

A GP win is a GP win is it not? 

Do you rate Geerts win this past weekend equal to Herling’s?

Yup should big boy wins that count, not years jh84 sand bagging  in the 250 class

It really depends on how you look at it. Everts 250 2 stroke wins shouldn't count as Mx2 victories, and Mx2 wins shouldnt hold the same prestige as an Mx win. Like I said it all depends how you look at it. I look at it as a bunch of guys who were afraid to race the top series in the world called Supercross. Haha I kid, I kid. 

Yeah I've never seen the wins listed like this . I thought it was MXGP/MX1/250 2stroke , MX3/500 , and MX2/125 .  However the 500s were the premier class until around 1990 or so . 

I’ve only ever heard of RC’s total wins in AMA MX, never his 250/450 alone. Since SX 125/250 is regional they rarely get accounted for when counting total SX wins. 

A GP win is a GP win, an outdoor national win is a national win. At least that’s how I think the stats look at it.

Yes. What you’re saying that anyone that won a 125 or 250 GP back when the 500’s were the more prestigious, their win means nothing. Your GP tally doesn’t get erased once go to the big boy class.

I understand what you’re trying to say but I disagree with it. Interesting debate though. 

I get that a GP win is a GP win and the total should be something celebrated

But that said I feel like the premier class wins should be a stat on their own and more celebrated than the total wins.. (especially in the era of the age out rule)

That list above annoys me that Herlings is above Cairoli when Toni has almost double the amount of wins in what is the harder class to get one.. While Herlings was 'padding' his number in the 'lesser' class he was obviously too good for

I don't believe they do.

They say rc has 8 titles and 76 wins. That's all I ever hear and that's only 450s.

He has 11 titles and 102 wins overall. I never hear them say that.

What a mess…

I’m not saying the lower class wins mean nothing. I’m saying they’re just not as prestigious as the premier class.

I think Herlings is an amazing rider, but to me, Cairoli’s 70 450 wins is more impressive than Herling’s 101 combined wins. But in saying that matching Evert’s record is certainly an elite achievement.

The thing that any MX racer wants more than anything else is to win. 1st place is the desired outcome.

You can not possibly win a race that you are not competing in.

Most of us former and current racers start in the 'C' class. Most move up from there, to B, to A, then possibly on to Pro.

A 'C ' class win meant as much to me as an 'A' class win, and I got a lot more C class wins than A class wins.

The better the competition, the more difficult it is to win.

Of course premier class wins are the ultimate win, but a win in ANY class at any level is what defines success.

Another element that skews things is in 2003 it was a one moto format and Everts, for most of the season, was racing both MX2 & MXGP (or MotocrossGp and 125 as it was then). Winning a lot in both classes. He even raced 3 classes in one day in France and won all three. It allowed him to rack up the GP wins total a lot in one season. Something the current riders wouldn't have the opportunity to do. So again it doesn't make a fair comparison when looking at the numbers.

If there was as much emphasis on premier class wins in MXGP as there was in the AMA series Herlings likely would've moved to the MXGP class much earlier. He also would likely have much more MXGP wins and titles than he does now

MX2 is a junior class, with and age and wins limit (derogated only for JH, but that0's another story). 
So no, GP wins shall be only the top class, and the Junior class shall not be counted.

Counting Herlings 250 wins is like NBC/Peacock making up stats for the Lawrence brothers....

I agree but that's your perception of it, I think Herlings would be the first tell you what the real score is.

Back in the day, 125, 250 and 500 GP wins were viewed as equal in most people’s minds. Certainly from my perspective, Gaston Rahier’s (125) Danny Laporte’s (250) and David Thorpe’s (500) GP wins carried equal prestige as far as I am concerned.

When they made MX2 age-restricted that changed. I no longer regard MX2 wins in the same category as MXGP. How can you when all the good 250F guys get forced out at 23?

One other thing to remember is that in the 70s/80s, riders had half the number of GPs per season. When today’s riders get twice as many opportunities each year they really should be racking up twice as many wins in a career, especially taking into account the weaker MX2 feeder class. 

I also think there’s an argument to be made that if there are less GPs, they’re worth more. If there’s a race virtually every single week they carry less prestige. That applies in SX too IMO. 
 

I 100% see the significance of a solid MX2 career, it is both impressive and respectable, etc, etc.

I would still be of the opinion that (numbers plucked from thin air) 100 wins with 70 in MX1 against the premier competition and slightly more mature and experienced racers is more accomplished than 100 wins split evenly across both classes.

It's not to take anything away from anyone, and I appreciate the following won't be true apples to apples comparisons, and some are more questions, but Formula 1 don't show F3 or F2 titles. Does MotoGP do the same? Does Football show college touch downs for an individual? (most people on this site's football, the one using your hands, not the football we have here where men wear hair bands and cry while pretending to fall over).

Either way, the more/less races angle which Rob mentions is always interesting to me.

The issue with the current MX2 class is that it’s limited in rider eligibility. Those ‘back in the day’ 125 and 250 class had no such limitations so a 125 specialist could race their entire career in the 125 class. The age limit takes out some of the potential competition, at least theoretically. Some of the guys forced ‘up or out’ might could have won a lot more races by staying in MX2, just like guys could stay in 125s as long as they wanted to. 

Geerts won the GP and Herlings won the GP. Geerts with a 1-1 and Herlings with a 3-1. You can talk a lot about the worth of it, but Geerts won a GP

Indeed he did. It was an age-limited feeder-class GP, though...

Imo the short story is that it is impossible to compare. 

Age restricted vs talent split over 3 classes vs less gp's in a year vs multiple classes on 1 day vs 1 moto formats to 3 moto formats etc etc etc.

All i can say is that i think it is a shame that MX2 is now seen as a junior championship. Imo there is no need for this.

I was away from MX for a lot of years and therefor do not know much about the way classes were organized and why Herlings remained in MX-2 and why Gajser did not, but, c'mon give #84 his due.

Look at 2018, the last time he was actually healthy. Something like 16 wins in a 19 race season. AC won a couple that year, if I remember correctly. Defines himself as the FMFOTP.

By the time he retires, he'll be approaching Tony's MXGP win record. It will be good to see 84, 243, 959, 61 and 91 go at it for at least a couple more years.

In MotoGP, they count all your wins/titles : Mark Marquez has 8 titles (6-MotoGP, 1-M2, 1-M3) Rossi 9 titles (7-MotoGP, 1-M2, 1M3)....

Would you say the same if MX3 was still around?
I'm not sure if Sven Breugelmans' 2 MX3 titles are equal to Pichon's or Bolley's two 250 titles.

If anything, his dominance in the MX2 class just shows how great a riders he is.  He's also been pretty dominant in the MXGP class so he's backed it up as it were.