How long until we see a production 250F with an external electric waterpump?

Gravel
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2/5/2023 6:24am
Dirtdemon wrote:

Even better on a 125?

Less torque in that engine

Helda7 wrote:

It would add a lot of weight except in the instance of a KTM that already has EFI and electric start 

It does add weight the way they’re doing it now (probably) but a motor that’s designed from the start for an external electric pump will be lighter and simpler. No mechanical pump, drive gears, impeller shafts or seals could be good. 
 

Agree, a 125 would get the most benefit from an electric water pump!

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endurox
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2/5/2023 6:55am
Tumic wrote:
When? Who knows, but the first production bike will probably be a KTM just like the hydro clutch, electric start, two stroke EFI etc. The japanese...

When? Who knows, but the first production bike will probably be a KTM just like the hydro clutch, electric start, two stroke EFI etc. The japanese brands are to conservative to jump the gun now days.

1992 Gas Gas GT-T was the first production bike with a hydraulic clutch actuation I believe. 1997.5 KTM came out with the PDS and hydraulic clutch actuation. 

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JustMX
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2/5/2023 8:13am
Richy wrote:
I like your post, and agree 99%, but question one thing... How would your trusty YZ's CDI and stator like any significant local EMP? Wouldn't anything...

I like your post, and agree 99%, but question one thing...

How would your trusty YZ's CDI and stator like any significant local EMP? Wouldn't anything powerful enough to be a worry wipe your carb-fed bike's ability to spark, too?

I'd think it might, but it is not quite my usual field (no magnetic pun intended), interested if anyone has an answer before the hordes amass and we need to fight back... Thinking about it now, I'm not sure there would be any lasting affects, or perhaps any unless the blast was very close? Even on an EFI bike.

I actually wondered why someone had not already asked about other electrical components.

The simple answer is, aluminum foil.

We don't just use it for hats here in tennessee.

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The Shop

ADynes
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2/5/2023 9:37am
Derpin' DJ wrote:
I would think it would only make sense if the alternator's not charging the battery, otherwise you're just moving the parasitic losses from the pump to...

I would think it would only make sense if the alternator's not charging the battery, otherwise you're just moving the parasitic losses from the pump to the alternator. That would mean you would have to charge the battery after every ride

Probably depends on how the mechanical pump is sized. If the OEMs knew the bikes were going to be used by all owners as race bikes, at higher speeds and rpms only, they could probably make the pump smaller. I'd bet they oversize them to account for owners who don't use them to their full potential (lower engine/pump speed, lower bike/air speed). In which case there's going to be excess parasitic loss at higher rpms. The electric pump can be sized smaller and still work well at all conditions being that it runs independent of engine speed.

I would be interested to know if the teams are running them full loss battery power. If so, that would almost be like cheating. Not much different in concept than running electric assist, and where do you draw the line? Oil/scavenge pumps? Cams? Etc.

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sandtrack315
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2/5/2023 9:49am
Jrey2 wrote:
Thinking more about this.. it may not be bad for dirtbikes to start being offered in 2-3 trim levels like vehicles. Alot of us want a...

Thinking more about this.. it may not be bad for dirtbikes to start being offered in 2-3 trim levels like vehicles. Alot of us want a barebones bike with a cable clutch, normal water pump... simple. Each brand can offer a base, an "XL" and a works edition to showcase their best work.

Agreed. Give me a Honda 250 works edition. 

Goldmember
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2/5/2023 9:52am
endurox wrote:
1992 Gas Gas GT-T was the first production bike with a hydraulic clutch actuation I believe. 1997.5 KTM came out with the PDS and hydraulic clutch...

1992 Gas Gas GT-T was the first production bike with a hydraulic clutch actuation I believe. 1997.5 KTM came out with the PDS and hydraulic clutch actuation. 

Goldwings had hydro clutches in 1975

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FHKRacingZ
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2/5/2023 10:08am Edited Date/Time 2/5/2023 10:09am
Mounted high, with reduced positive head to it's inlet suggests the electric pump is an auxillary pump. There may we'll be a standard pump in the...

Mounted high, with reduced positive head to it's inlet suggests the electric pump is an auxillary pump. There may we'll be a standard pump in the normal place.

 

Helda7 wrote:

Theres not.

It’s a centrifugal pump running a closed loop with minimal pressure drop, I think it’s fine.

I’d rather have this style pump than the mechanical one driven from the crank. It’s flow rate and cooling capacity is linear and isolates the cooling loop from the drive assembly. These pumps will outlast your top end’s by 1000x….

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Top End
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2/5/2023 12:32pm

I could see it happening in the future. A lot of car racing engines use eclectic water pumps now. I know Tesla went from a mechanical oil pump to an electric one in their latest car motors. Hate to say it but, before we know it the whole production 250F will be electric lol

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endurox
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2/5/2023 6:00pm
endurox wrote:
1992 Gas Gas GT-T was the first production bike with a hydraulic clutch actuation I believe. 1997.5 KTM came out with the PDS and hydraulic clutch...

1992 Gas Gas GT-T was the first production bike with a hydraulic clutch actuation I believe. 1997.5 KTM came out with the PDS and hydraulic clutch actuation. 

Goldmember wrote:

Goldwings had hydro clutches in 1975

Here is a clean Goldwing that was sold at a Mecum auction. Sure looks like a cable actuated clutch.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/LV0121-434958/1975-honda-goldwing-gl1000/

enketchum
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2/5/2023 11:42pm
JustMX wrote:
Yeah, why not add a cheap electrical component made in China that when it fails, toasts the motor. Think of all the money dealers will make...

Yeah, why not add a cheap electrical component made in China that when it fails, toasts the motor.

Think of all the money dealers will make doing complete rebuilds due to a $5 pump failing instead of sticking with the existing mechanical pump.

Some times existing designs that have worked pretty well for 40 years don't need to be changed.

And besides when WW3 breaks out and emp are common place, what will we use to battle the zombie hordes that follow if all our water pumps are fried?

You keep on running my friends. I will be deciding which survival tool to use that day, my old klr 650, '94 yz250, or '91 xr 200 with those mechanical water pumps, (or air cooling) and trusty carbs.

 

tek14 wrote:

How many water pumps failed on Toyota Prius? Uses same pump. 

JustMX wrote:

I hear those pumps require a really stout battery

it's a 12 volt pump. The 201.6V hybrid battery charges the 12 volt system through a converter in the inverter unit under the hood

 

RealityCheck
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2/6/2023 4:52am

Electric water pumps on motocross bikes are a solution looking for a problem.

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snillum
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Fantasy
2/6/2023 5:12am

Everyone has pointed out the negatives for an electric pump, but what are the benefits? Parasitic losses are negligible for us, so what else?

I am thinking, the motor case castings could be slightly simpler and smaller since you do not need to account for the pump housing and water channel. This would be a benefit to the manufactures not needing to use extra material for castings and require less machining. Depending where the pump is mounted there could be less hoses required. You could pump the water directly to the heads and then directly to the radiators instead of down to the mechanical pump. You could make the water pump motor also drive a radiator fan so you always have airflow. Depending on each manufactures designs, if the output shaft to the pump is removed and the gear that is needed to drive it, maybe they would have more room to move things around internally? 

I'm not seeing a great big benefit to riders unless I am missing something.. but I'm not an engineer, just a dumbass. 

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Sacko
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2/7/2023 8:52am

I'm not seeing the benefit to ever put these on a production bike.  I'd have to guess damn near 100% of us in this forum will ever ride a bike fast enough, hard enough, for long enough to ever need something like this.  

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TeamGreen
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2/7/2023 9:45am

People are talking about expense? An engine designed from the start without the add’l casting and manufacturing considerations for a pump “in the cases” would be less expensive. It would be lighter. It would even be easier to service when it comes to water-pump/cooling system related servicing. 

As for thermal management? It offers opportunities to control your operating temps in a way that’s much more manageable and adds to your engines performance capabilities in that case, also (thermally). Engine temp can actually be controlled by the ECU in a much better fashion than in an engine equipped with just a thermostat and a std pump. 

On the automotive side of things, Electric Pumps have become the norm. 

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MKMX
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2/7/2023 1:31pm

You likely will never see it. The main reasons the teams have gone to the electric water pump is for the power gain they get from it Vs the mechanical water pump. Production bikes are made for the general rider/enthusiast, of which, even less are racers.

No manufacturer will put a component on that benefits only a small percentage of their already niche market and increase the risk of having a failure of some-sort. The risk vs reward just isn’t there.

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2/7/2023 1:49pm
Tumic wrote:
When? Who knows, but the first production bike will probably be a KTM just like the hydro clutch, electric start, two stroke EFI etc. The japanese...

When? Who knows, but the first production bike will probably be a KTM just like the hydro clutch, electric start, two stroke EFI etc. The japanese brands are to conservative to jump the gun now days.

True but ktm is the only oem NOT running the electric water pump. Gotta be a reason for that

RaceFace232
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2/7/2023 1:57pm
TeamGreen wrote:
People are talking about expense? An engine designed from the start without the add’l casting and manufacturing considerations for a pump “in the cases” would be...

People are talking about expense? An engine designed from the start without the add’l casting and manufacturing considerations for a pump “in the cases” would be less expensive. It would be lighter. It would even be easier to service when it comes to water-pump/cooling system related servicing. 

As for thermal management? It offers opportunities to control your operating temps in a way that’s much more manageable and adds to your engines performance capabilities in that case, also (thermally). Engine temp can actually be controlled by the ECU in a much better fashion than in an engine equipped with just a thermostat and a std pump. 

On the automotive side of things, Electric Pumps have become the norm. 

That’s really grasping on some of those benefits.  If this becomes a thing it will show hiw the manufacturers are grasping for things to claim are improvements that iou can’t live without all while sending bike prices towards $20k

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spimx
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2/7/2023 2:49pm

if the electric pump cools better and also drives a fan maybe we could be going to a single radiator. Along with simpler cases and less one radiator would be weight savings and just a simpler bike 

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Leave Us To
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2/7/2023 8:22pm
twotwosix wrote:
With more and more 250 race teams moving to electric waterpumps, who do you think will be the first OEM to adpot the idea to their...

With more and more 250 race teams moving to electric waterpumps, who do you think will be the first OEM to adpot the idea to their prodution bike? And how far off do we think this could be? At what point does the slight performance benefit begin to make $ense to an OEM for their 250F? I'm sure money, complexity, reliabilty and packaging all play a part in it. 

 

maxresdefault 1

 

Really a great question.   

To the person who said 90 percent of us don't need electric water pumps, most of us probably don't need a lot of the stuff we buy for our bikes but there's a big difference between wanting and needing.

2/7/2023 11:41pm Edited Date/Time 2/7/2023 11:43pm

Hopefully never 

Ya, I’d imagine you would say that. It would make your bike go from a dinosaur to a fossil. Suzuki won’t have it until 2040.

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Gravel
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2/8/2023 6:01am
Tumic wrote:
When? Who knows, but the first production bike will probably be a KTM just like the hydro clutch, electric start, two stroke EFI etc. The japanese...

When? Who knows, but the first production bike will probably be a KTM just like the hydro clutch, electric start, two stroke EFI etc. The japanese brands are to conservative to jump the gun now days.

True but ktm is the only oem NOT running the electric water pump. Gotta be a reason for that

KTM has had their plate full fixing the bikes handling, no time for working on the water pumps, lol!

But with KTMs history of bringing stuff to the market first, I bet they’re first with an electric pump setup. And the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. No coolant/oil seal to fail and they can (should) move the pump off the bottom corner of the motor where it’s exposed to damage. It could also add ability to control temperature via flow rate’s instead of a thermostat, or nothing controlling temperature like we have now, would help both power and longevity. Team Green mentioned all of this, I wonder how much of the future he’s seen in his crystal ball.

As for reliability, it’s one more electrical component. But we already have electrical components that are pretty good, and anything can fail if you’re having a bad day. 
 

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