Red Bull | What Happened To 2 Strokes?

Alan Dove
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10/11/2022 2:12am
ando wrote:
Interesting - a bunch of old guys indulging in nostalgia about how the old days were better. In 20 years there’ll be a video with Villopoto...
Interesting - a bunch of old guys indulging in nostalgia about how the old days were better.

In 20 years there’ll be a video with Villopoto, Dungey, Tomac etc reminiscing about the good old days of four strokes before electric bikes “ruined the sport”.

doubt that. 2-strokes hold far more cultural clout.
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Alan Dove
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10/11/2022 2:13am
zehn wrote:
The free market happened
Yes and no.

What dictated the move to 4-stroke was competitive performance once the rules change. In karting we are still 2-stroke because that is what's mandated. If it was open to 4-stroke with double the displacement then it might change.
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ando
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10/11/2022 2:25am
ando wrote:
Interesting - a bunch of old guys indulging in nostalgia about how the old days were better. In 20 years there’ll be a video with Villopoto...
Interesting - a bunch of old guys indulging in nostalgia about how the old days were better.

In 20 years there’ll be a video with Villopoto, Dungey, Tomac etc reminiscing about the good old days of four strokes before electric bikes “ruined the sport”.

Alan Dove wrote:
doubt that. 2-strokes hold far more cultural clout.
With who? The current generation of riders can barely even buy a two stroke, let alone race one. Why would two strokes hold any value to them?
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Hcallz5
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10/11/2022 2:39am
It's best to have one of each!
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The Shop

CPR
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10/11/2022 3:16am Edited Date/Time 10/11/2022 3:17am
I was building bikes back then and it was devastating watching a top rider ringing the neck of a highly tuned 125 for all he was worth, just to stay in front of a normally top ten rider on a stock 250f with a pipe.
The 450 take over of the old 250 class happened a little slower, but it was still the main reason I exited the industry in 2005.
The cheater bikes were fast and easier to ride, but will never be more fun.
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Alan Dove
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10/11/2022 3:35am
ando wrote:
With who? The current generation of riders can barely even buy a two stroke, let alone race one. Why would two strokes hold any value to...
With who? The current generation of riders can barely even buy a two stroke, let alone race one. Why would two strokes hold any value to them?
2-stroke have always held more cultural clout because one can rebuild them oneself, and they smell/sound better by and large (I know that's subjective, but my experience is most people don't care for 4/s on the whole)

4-strokes, which I deem largely utilitarian in nature, will be forgotten about and won't have the cultural renaissance 2-strokes have had. In the end both might be forgotten about, but no one is going to treasure the 4-strokes as they have/do the 2-strokes. Maybe I am wrong, who knows.
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Bearuno
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10/11/2022 3:55am Edited Date/Time 10/11/2022 3:56am
Alan Dove wrote:
Yes and no. What dictated the move to 4-stroke was competitive performance once the rules change. In karting we are still 2-stroke because that is what's...
Yes and no.

What dictated the move to 4-stroke was competitive performance once the rules change. In karting we are still 2-stroke because that is what's mandated. If it was open to 4-stroke with double the displacement then it might change.
Alan, I'm very interested in the Kart 4t / 2T 'thing'.

I'm probably wrong, but wasn't there a push towards 4ts in Karts, that was kept at bay by the manufacturers And the Participants that wanted the 2ts to stay around.

Through Manufacture 'might' ( nothing like the major MC manufacturers 'might') And the perceived cost increases it would bring.

I looked into it some time ago, and, there were quite a few brands that developed Serious 4T Kart engines. I haven't gone looking for a while, but I'm pretty sure TM have 4T Kart engines, as well as their 2ts. And, if I remember correctly, there were / are some pretty stringent 'control' rules on them, with regards to induction and ignition, and perhaps other things.

What it appears to me - a bloke that knows sweet FA about Karting, is that the sport protected itself from runaway costs, pretty bloody effectively. I Do Know that the highest end Karts, are expensive - what Motor Sport isn't? - but they have managed to keep the main classes from being out of the reach of the sportsmen and women.

I'd very much like to have a bit of an education, from a bloke I've noticed through this site, as being pretty heavily into Karting.
Alan Dove
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10/11/2022 5:23am
Bearuno wrote:
Alan, I'm very interested in the Kart 4t / 2T 'thing'. I'm probably wrong, but wasn't there a push towards 4ts in Karts, that was kept...
Alan, I'm very interested in the Kart 4t / 2T 'thing'.

I'm probably wrong, but wasn't there a push towards 4ts in Karts, that was kept at bay by the manufacturers And the Participants that wanted the 2ts to stay around.

Through Manufacture 'might' ( nothing like the major MC manufacturers 'might') And the perceived cost increases it would bring.

I looked into it some time ago, and, there were quite a few brands that developed Serious 4T Kart engines. I haven't gone looking for a while, but I'm pretty sure TM have 4T Kart engines, as well as their 2ts. And, if I remember correctly, there were / are some pretty stringent 'control' rules on them, with regards to induction and ignition, and perhaps other things.

What it appears to me - a bloke that knows sweet FA about Karting, is that the sport protected itself from runaway costs, pretty bloody effectively. I Do Know that the highest end Karts, are expensive - what Motor Sport isn't? - but they have managed to keep the main classes from being out of the reach of the sportsmen and women.

I'd very much like to have a bit of an education, from a bloke I've noticed through this site, as being pretty heavily into Karting.
Well, to be honest mate, you know more about that most people in karting. Karting's structure is a bit different to dirtbikes due to he influx of 'spec' racing series which muddies the market waters quite a lot. In karting we are almost more extreme in 2-stroke fundamentals but I won't go into that too much.

What you said it broadly correct. We need to say that in 1997 (and others had done it before but not at the level of success) Rotax bought out the FR125 (basically a one gear Aprilia RS125). This was a 'spec' class and pretty much decimated multi-make racing. In karting we still run multi manufacturer chassis (which we will refer to as the 'FIA classes') but you can run any type of engine you want for the most part. The 'engine' pretty much dictates the class.

So the FIA classes (which at the time were 100cc, direct drive, pure as you like) lost out big time because the new Rotax class (despite being a bit rank) had things going for it - single-engine, longer rebuild times etc...

So the 4-stroke thing, that the FIA wanted to bring in in the early 00s, wouldn't have had as big an affect on the sport as a whole because by that time most people were (and still are) racing these spec-engine categories. DIretbike racing is better because what's raced at club level is the same at the elite level for the most part. Karting isn't like that really. The FIA did introduce KF in 2007, which was basically a multi-make version of the Max class... and even that mild addition of complexity exploded costs. Also, broadly no one really wants to race 4-strokes in karting unless it's low-power categories (prokarts, Briggs etc...) though again, there's some exceptions. Karting is very a mess in that regards.

Everything you say is basically correct, but it would have been limited to the elite level as that's the only area that really races the FIA classes bar a couple of exceptions.
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Magoofan
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10/11/2022 8:47am
Just wait until purchasing fuel becomes cost prohibitive or even banned with the all out attack on ICE vehicles.

California is leading the charge for this insanity.
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Mick 22
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10/11/2022 9:14am
ando wrote:
Interesting - a bunch of old guys indulging in nostalgia about how the old days were better. In 20 years there’ll be a video with Villopoto...
Interesting - a bunch of old guys indulging in nostalgia about how the old days were better.

In 20 years there’ll be a video with Villopoto, Dungey, Tomac etc reminiscing about the good old days of four strokes before electric bikes “ruined the sport”.

Get a breath of CR, KX, RM or YZ 125 or 250 burning a bean oil mix and then tell me again about the old guys and their gold old days.

John Banks was the first and maybe only guy to compete against DeCoster and Mikkola on a four stroke when everyone was on a two stroke,

Why did he get hammered?

Because in the old days, classes were organized by engine displacement, where a 500cc 2 stroke raced a 500 cc four stroke.

What group of idiots decided a 125 needs to compete vs a 250? or a 250 needs to race vs a 450?

Probably the sanitarium patients in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest
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10/11/2022 6:44pm
Grant said it best I thought they would ruin the sport , I hated the sound, there bulky and hvy. And Ping Looked Great on the RM250. The last 125 all star race Great to see 411 Liebeck he popped wide 3 corners from the finish to finish 2nd. He,s done racing now. Most people hate the sound of 450,s . It sounds like farts who wants to hear a the worst sounding race engine of all race engines raise there hand. Yeah nobody. At a AX race when 4-st took ovr it was so loud most people covered there ears then walked out. The backfiring was bad too. The 4-st where such a joke how can you promote them to no end. Backfiring this is the Ama dream machine. All the talk of we want the sport to b like f1. It was so stupid. I saw the 97 yz400 at Gainsville custom frame etc I thought what is this shit. A full works everything every advantage you could imagine. 98,s 1st race a deep hilly sand track I ran there 426,s over rather than going around and put other 426,s on the ground. I don’t remember loosing to a 426. Of course they had to put a pipe on 130+ decibels . Then most tracks closed.
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Ob917
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10/11/2022 8:31pm
Back in the day had to ride my 250sx so hard to go 450 speed. I did eventually figure out the 350 is the sweet spot. I’m about over the current state of moto and feel like selling my bike and just riding my Mtb.
Teej317
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10/12/2022 7:26am
Roczen on a YZ250 this weekend. Interesting.
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10/12/2022 7:16pm
Magoofan wrote:
Just wait until purchasing fuel becomes cost prohibitive or even banned with the all out attack on ICE vehicles. California is leading the charge for this...
Just wait until purchasing fuel becomes cost prohibitive or even banned with the all out attack on ICE vehicles.

California is leading the charge for this insanity.
The rest of the country is not interested in any kind of electric vehicle , trust me. Our local track 20 min outside of Green Bay has a lot of 2-st bikes mostly 125,s. New 125,s and a lot of older ones mainly cr,s but a few kx and yz,s. The main track had races since 1969. It shutdown in aprox 2014.
Rolling hills with floater jumps ovr the hills a great flow for a 125. When worked up with wood chips it’s loamy but never does. So it’s hard pack with marbels , to Ping Pong sized clay balls in some corners, peaked edges for braking bumps. I look at it like riding on ice but the layout is great. Not many 4-st usually there new but they don’t ride very long. The 2-st riders ride a lot more probably because there having more fun. Some don’t watch any pro races they just want to ride. 2 more tracks in the pit area 1 is for beginners.
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Bruce372
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10/12/2022 7:27pm
I blame Putin, has to he his failt. Everything else is.
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JG463
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10/12/2022 8:03pm
The rest of the country is not interested in any kind of electric vehicle , trust me. Our local track 20 min outside of Green Bay...
The rest of the country is not interested in any kind of electric vehicle , trust me. Our local track 20 min outside of Green Bay has a lot of 2-st bikes mostly 125,s. New 125,s and a lot of older ones mainly cr,s but a few kx and yz,s. The main track had races since 1969. It shutdown in aprox 2014.
Rolling hills with floater jumps ovr the hills a great flow for a 125. When worked up with wood chips it’s loamy but never does. So it’s hard pack with marbels , to Ping Pong sized clay balls in some corners, peaked edges for braking bumps. I look at it like riding on ice but the layout is great. Not many 4-st usually there new but they don’t ride very long. The 2-st riders ride a lot more probably because there having more fun. Some don’t watch any pro races they just want to ride. 2 more tracks in the pit area 1 is for beginners.
What track are you referring to?
10/12/2022 8:43pm
The rest of the country is not interested in any kind of electric vehicle , trust me. Our local track 20 min outside of Green Bay...
The rest of the country is not interested in any kind of electric vehicle , trust me. Our local track 20 min outside of Green Bay has a lot of 2-st bikes mostly 125,s. New 125,s and a lot of older ones mainly cr,s but a few kx and yz,s. The main track had races since 1969. It shutdown in aprox 2014.
Rolling hills with floater jumps ovr the hills a great flow for a 125. When worked up with wood chips it’s loamy but never does. So it’s hard pack with marbels , to Ping Pong sized clay balls in some corners, peaked edges for braking bumps. I look at it like riding on ice but the layout is great. Not many 4-st usually there new but they don’t ride very long. The 2-st riders ride a lot more probably because there having more fun. Some don’t watch any pro races they just want to ride. 2 more tracks in the pit area 1 is for beginners.
JG463 wrote:
What track are you referring to?
Denmark
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RaceFace58
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10/13/2022 12:49am
7I3N wrote:
I blame the bureaucrats of the California Air Resources Board.
Finally someone remembers why there was even a consideration of the 4-stroke move. The government was making moves to outlaw 2-strokes for environmental concerns with their emissions. The manufacturers were being told that regulations were coming that they were going to need to comply with. I really think if the move wasn’t made that the government would’ve continued down that path. They backed off some once they saw how proactive the bike makers were. They’re still at it. In 20 years I bet you won’t be allowed to ride a dirt bike in CA that isn’t electric. New Zealand right now is looking to implement taxes against cows for ranchers because cow farts are impacting the environment. CA is outlawing any landscaping equipment that isn’t electric right now. Think your gas powered bike isn’t far behind? People in 30 years will likely be blaming the AMA and Honda for the move to electric. I’ve got a KX 125 and 250 restoration project going, I wish the 2-strokes never left. I will never own an electric bike.
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Moto Nomad
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10/13/2022 12:05pm
When I went from a two-stroke to an RMZ450 I thought something was wrong with the bike because it would push in the turns. I tried different clamps and stuff until I concluded that's just how four-strokes handled.
ti473
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10/13/2022 12:59pm
"and here we are, ten thousand dollar four strokes". What a stupid argument... Guess what we have 3 dollar egg dozens, 4 dollar milk gallons, 5 dollar gas, and you guessed it... 9 thousand dollar 2 strokes
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10/13/2022 1:53pm Edited Date/Time 10/13/2022 1:54pm
Teej317 wrote:
Roczen on a YZ250 this weekend. Interesting.
KennY
. RocZen
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avidchimp
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10/13/2022 2:08pm
ti473 wrote:
"and here we are, ten thousand dollar four strokes". What a stupid argument... Guess what we have 3 dollar egg dozens, 4 dollar milk gallons, 5...
"and here we are, ten thousand dollar four strokes". What a stupid argument... Guess what we have 3 dollar egg dozens, 4 dollar milk gallons, 5 dollar gas, and you guessed it... 9 thousand dollar 2 strokes
Doritos are $5 a bag now. That is the real fucking crime being committed.
yzr250r
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10/13/2022 3:06pm
Trials is any displacement you want and is 99 percent two-stroke. Granted, trials is probably 98 percent rider/technique. Oh, and dirt bikes, whether gas, electric or nuclear - they Have to have a clutch to be ridden properly!!!
RaceFace58
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10/13/2022 5:42pm
ti473 wrote:
"and here we are, ten thousand dollar four strokes". What a stupid argument... Guess what we have 3 dollar egg dozens, 4 dollar milk gallons, 5...
"and here we are, ten thousand dollar four strokes". What a stupid argument... Guess what we have 3 dollar egg dozens, 4 dollar milk gallons, 5 dollar gas, and you guessed it... 9 thousand dollar 2 strokes
That’s the truth! I remember Honda 250s were jumping in price $500 a year, at a point when they were $3,000. Simple math dictated that it would only be a few years until $5,000 bikes then a few more $7,500. It’s actually surprising they aren’t even higher now considering that was 30 years ago.
Tumic
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10/13/2022 10:19pm
The displacement advantage of the fourstroke is not a thing today.

Look at every country in the world beside US, where you can race a 250 2t against a 250f, the 250F will 99% of the times be the faster bike.

It has more traction and usable power, just look at how slow Ken’s yz250 looked at the Glen Helen SX track compared to a 250f, and that YZ will probably have the same amount of power, if not more.

Were the two strokes more fun? Yes, are the four strokes more superior to ride even with the same CC’s? -yes..

Evolution goes on and this were just a part of it.
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