Stark Varg Reviews

crt32
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959
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Location
Oklahoma City, OK US
6/13/2022 10:59am
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper,(b) about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.(c)



Looking upstream at the ore grades, one can estimate the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to fabricate that single battery:



• Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that entails some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.(d)



• Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.(e)



• Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.(f)



• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.(g)



• Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.(h)



In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the earth moved though—which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining machinery energy use—one needs to estimate the overburden, or the materials first dug up to get to the ore. Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.(i)



This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have widely variable ore grades. It bears noting that this total material footprint does not include the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all the various ores. Nor have we counted other materials used when compared with a conventional car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight penalty of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (e.g., neodymium, dysprosium).(j) Also excluded from this tally: the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV use some 300% more overall copper used compared with a conventional automobile.(k)

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-rea…
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1
flap
Posts
211
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Stockholm SE
6/13/2022 11:11am
crt32 wrote:
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds...
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper,(b) about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.(c)



Looking upstream at the ore grades, one can estimate the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to fabricate that single battery:



• Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that entails some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.(d)



• Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.(e)



• Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.(f)



• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.(g)



• Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.(h)



In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the earth moved though—which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining machinery energy use—one needs to estimate the overburden, or the materials first dug up to get to the ore. Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.(i)



This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have widely variable ore grades. It bears noting that this total material footprint does not include the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all the various ores. Nor have we counted other materials used when compared with a conventional car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight penalty of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (e.g., neodymium, dysprosium).(j) Also excluded from this tally: the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV use some 300% more overall copper used compared with a conventional automobile.(k)

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-rea…
Copy Paste research-guy! haha.
Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel:

"The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is a conservative 501 non-profit American think tank focused on domestic policy and urban affairs"

"The Manhattan Institute is funded largely by major corporations and conservative foundations"

"(funding) Thirty-three percent came from Fortune 500 corporations, chiefly insurance companies and pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturers including $50,000-plus each from Aetna and State From Insurance and $15,000-plus each from Prudential, Exxon, RJR Nabisco, Philip Morris, Bristol-Myers and Pfizer"

etc.

Think and feel how you want, obviously, but you dont know anything and are not 1% smarter than anyone else in here nor at Kawi or Stark.

Funny how some MX folk can be so against efforts that may keep riding areas open. Or even if you dont care about that - new brands investing tons of money and bringing another choice in dirtbike to the market.
11
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davis224
Posts
7454
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Cornland, IL US
Fantasy
6/13/2022 12:26pm
daemon666 wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/automaker-ev-plans/

Back in 2019 my coworker at MSFT drove his Tesla from Dallas, TX to Denver, CO and back no problem with this family.
JK BRO wrote:
A Honda Vespa could make that same trip 100x with less overall emissions.

Because, you know. Batteries take diesel fuel to mine the lithium.
I'm waiting for the first picture of a copper mine to turn up labeled as a lithium mine.
4
crt32
Posts
959
Joined
4/20/2015
Location
Oklahoma City, OK US
6/13/2022 12:30pm
flap wrote:
Copy Paste research-guy! haha. Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel: "The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research...
Copy Paste research-guy! haha.
Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel:

"The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is a conservative 501 non-profit American think tank focused on domestic policy and urban affairs"

"The Manhattan Institute is funded largely by major corporations and conservative foundations"

"(funding) Thirty-three percent came from Fortune 500 corporations, chiefly insurance companies and pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturers including $50,000-plus each from Aetna and State From Insurance and $15,000-plus each from Prudential, Exxon, RJR Nabisco, Philip Morris, Bristol-Myers and Pfizer"

etc.

Think and feel how you want, obviously, but you dont know anything and are not 1% smarter than anyone else in here nor at Kawi or Stark.

Funny how some MX folk can be so against efforts that may keep riding areas open. Or even if you dont care about that - new brands investing tons of money and bringing another choice in dirtbike to the market.
It was something I shared, even provided the link. Wasn't trying to hide anything. Don't think I called it research either.

Please tell me in my previous post where I claimed to know anything or claimed to be 1% smarter than anyone?

Keeping riding areas open has nothing to do with my complaint. I think I mentioned that EV has a place, but it does not to need to replace our whole sport, it can be its own class, series, whatever. But the whole issue is the push to go 100% electric. It's going to hurt you, me, and others. It's not about riding in the big picture of things. It's about having access to affordable energy and living in a safe, yet modern world.

But thank you for your permission to think and feel how I want; I will continue to do that. And you're allowed to think how you want. But you won't find me calling you names or questioning your intelligence. Again as mentioned, let's have discussions, and name-calling or trying to use childish comments is not how you accomplish anything.
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1

The Shop

RCMXracing
Posts
891
Joined
8/10/2011
Location
N., TX US
6/13/2022 2:37pm
Rope the asteroid “16 Psyche” worth an estimated 10 Quintillion, battery resource problems ✅
1
stone881
Posts
856
Joined
12/26/2014
Location
Fruita, CO US
6/13/2022 3:20pm
crt32 wrote:
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds...
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper,(b) about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.(c)



Looking upstream at the ore grades, one can estimate the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to fabricate that single battery:



• Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that entails some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.(d)



• Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.(e)



• Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.(f)



• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.(g)



• Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.(h)



In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the earth moved though—which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining machinery energy use—one needs to estimate the overburden, or the materials first dug up to get to the ore. Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.(i)



This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have widely variable ore grades. It bears noting that this total material footprint does not include the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all the various ores. Nor have we counted other materials used when compared with a conventional car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight penalty of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (e.g., neodymium, dysprosium).(j) Also excluded from this tally: the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV use some 300% more overall copper used compared with a conventional automobile.(k)

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-rea…
flap wrote:
Copy Paste research-guy! haha. Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel: "The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research...
Copy Paste research-guy! haha.
Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel:

"The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is a conservative 501 non-profit American think tank focused on domestic policy and urban affairs"

"The Manhattan Institute is funded largely by major corporations and conservative foundations"

"(funding) Thirty-three percent came from Fortune 500 corporations, chiefly insurance companies and pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturers including $50,000-plus each from Aetna and State From Insurance and $15,000-plus each from Prudential, Exxon, RJR Nabisco, Philip Morris, Bristol-Myers and Pfizer"

etc.

Think and feel how you want, obviously, but you dont know anything and are not 1% smarter than anyone else in here nor at Kawi or Stark.

Funny how some MX folk can be so against efforts that may keep riding areas open. Or even if you dont care about that - new brands investing tons of money and bringing another choice in dirtbike to the market.
And who do you think pays for all of that "global warming, green energy" research?
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2
flap
Posts
211
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Location
Stockholm SE
6/13/2022 3:50pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2022 4:06pm
stone881 wrote:
And who do you think pays for all of that "global warming, green energy" research?
Not at all interested. Not sure i ever indicated i was? I pointed towards how easy it is to find skewed articles and research. Anyways, this is not the place for it, i get it if you dont like batteries, not the point of this thread at all though.
1
7
yota
Posts
1421
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Location
Crystal River, FL US
6/13/2022 4:52pm
yota wrote:
battery pack looks huge.
Cosmetically speaking, that battery is not easy on the eyes at all. Something out of that 80’s movie Total Recall
and yet I got 2 thumbs down for my observation lol.
2
davis224
Posts
7454
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Location
Cornland, IL US
Fantasy
6/13/2022 7:34pm
crt32 wrote:
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds...
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper,(b) about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.(c)



Looking upstream at the ore grades, one can estimate the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to fabricate that single battery:



• Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that entails some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.(d)



• Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.(e)



• Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.(f)



• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.(g)



• Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.(h)



In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the earth moved though—which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining machinery energy use—one needs to estimate the overburden, or the materials first dug up to get to the ore. Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.(i)



This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have widely variable ore grades. It bears noting that this total material footprint does not include the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all the various ores. Nor have we counted other materials used when compared with a conventional car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight penalty of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (e.g., neodymium, dysprosium).(j) Also excluded from this tally: the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV use some 300% more overall copper used compared with a conventional automobile.(k)

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-rea…
flap wrote:
Copy Paste research-guy! haha. Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel: "The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research...
Copy Paste research-guy! haha.
Oh btw, source check real quick, seems like a great place to find your skewed intel:

"The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is a conservative 501 non-profit American think tank focused on domestic policy and urban affairs"

"The Manhattan Institute is funded largely by major corporations and conservative foundations"

"(funding) Thirty-three percent came from Fortune 500 corporations, chiefly insurance companies and pharmaceutical and chemical manufacturers including $50,000-plus each from Aetna and State From Insurance and $15,000-plus each from Prudential, Exxon, RJR Nabisco, Philip Morris, Bristol-Myers and Pfizer"

etc.

Think and feel how you want, obviously, but you dont know anything and are not 1% smarter than anyone else in here nor at Kawi or Stark.

Funny how some MX folk can be so against efforts that may keep riding areas open. Or even if you dont care about that - new brands investing tons of money and bringing another choice in dirtbike to the market.
stone881 wrote:
And who do you think pays for all of that "global warming, green energy" research?
Big minimalism?
1
tobz
Posts
3891
Joined
3/5/2007
Location
Adelaide AU
6/13/2022 7:52pm
crt32 wrote:
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds...
A lithium EV battery weighs about 1,000 pounds.(a) While there are dozens of variations, such a battery typically contains about 25 pounds of lithium, 30 pounds of cobalt, 60 pounds of nickel, 110 pounds of graphite, 90 pounds of copper,(b) about 400 pounds of steel, aluminum, and various plastic components.(c)



Looking upstream at the ore grades, one can estimate the typical quantity of rock that must be extracted from the earth and processed to yield the pure minerals needed to fabricate that single battery:



• Lithium brines typically contain less than 0.1% lithium, so that entails some 25,000 pounds of brines to get the 25 pounds of pure lithium.(d)



• Cobalt ore grades average about 0.1%, thus nearly 30,000 pounds of ore.(e)



• Nickel ore grades average about 1%, thus about 6,000 pounds of ore.(f)



• Graphite ore is typically 10%, thus about 1,000 pounds per battery.(g)



• Copper at about 0.6% in the ore, thus about 25,000 pounds of ore per battery.(h)



In total then, acquiring just these five elements to produce the 1,000-pound EV battery requires mining about 90,000 pounds of ore. To properly account for all of the earth moved though—which is relevant to the overall environmental footprint, and mining machinery energy use—one needs to estimate the overburden, or the materials first dug up to get to the ore. Depending on ore type and location, overburden ranges from about 3 to 20 tons of earth removed to access each ton of ore.(i)



This means that accessing about 90,000 pounds of ore requires digging and moving between 200,000 and over 1,500,000 pounds of earth—a rough average of more than 500,000 pounds per battery. The precise number will vary for different battery chemistry formulations, and because different regions have widely variable ore grades. It bears noting that this total material footprint does not include the large quantities of materials and chemicals used to process and refine all the various ores. Nor have we counted other materials used when compared with a conventional car, such as replacing steel with aluminum to offset the weight penalty of the battery, or the supply chain for rare earth elements used in electric motors (e.g., neodymium, dysprosium).(j) Also excluded from this tally: the related, but non-battery, electrical systems in an EV use some 300% more overall copper used compared with a conventional automobile.(k)

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-rea…
I couldn’t give a shit. It’s the noise and less maintenance that’s a big tick for me.
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1
DDub8
Posts
245
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Austin, TX US
6/14/2022 1:56pm Edited Date/Time 6/14/2022 1:57pm
According to the latest Gypsy Tales podcast Stark are in talks with many tracks around the world to implement charging docks, also Stark are going to...
According to the latest Gypsy Tales podcast Stark are in talks with many tracks around the world to implement charging docks, also Stark are going to make a stand for the bike that has a built in battery pack to charge whilst mounted on the stand.
scott_nz wrote:
Although a few high profile track in social and Europe may get this , the cost of doing it in a rural track in Nz or...
Although a few high profile track in social and Europe may get this , the cost of doing it in a rural track in Nz or Australia (or even small town USA) would be massive for small amount of bikes
It won't be that expensive. I was able to find this photo of a prototype charging station Stark is currently testing. That's the US version. https://www.reddit.com/r/UnexpectedJoJo/comments/ehrb8w/tree_power_outl…
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3
Falcon
Posts
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Location
Menifee, CA US
6/15/2022 8:53am
For some who prefer the sound of ICE engines, I understand. Part of the thrill of MotoGP, for instance, is the shrieking sound of those engines blowing past you at immense speeds. But for me, on my personal bike, I don't care how it sounds. And let's be honest: if it can last through two 20 minute motos, I'm good. I'm really looking forward to trying one.

chasetwo79 mentioned indoor, electric-only tracks. Can you imagine riding an indoor supercross track 10 minutes from your house? I'd be there 2-3 times a week.
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3
#434
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1913
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Location
DE
6/16/2022 11:57pm Edited Date/Time 6/17/2022 4:12am
Has this conversation between Swap and other test riders been posted yet?
https://youtu.be/pB7Nxbz2AB4

Lots of good info in there!
- At 37:00 Dylan Woodcock talks about how much battery he used riding Supercross on the Stark. Sounds like it could compete tomorrow.
- Funny, when they talked about what they didn’t like about it: no complaints about how it rides, but about the phone on the bar pad. That’s it!
- Laptimes where also interesting because they could compare back to back with other 450s. Dylan Woodcock was 6 sec a lap faster than on the Husky, which is what he is racing at the moment.

If you’re on the fence of buying one, listen to it. Removed the last of my doubts. I‘m going to order one.

Edit: Just ordered mine!
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1
Motofinne
Posts
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FI
6/17/2022 2:13am Edited Date/Time 6/17/2022 2:39am
6 seconds is absolutely mental if true. It's a bit too much for me to believe it without any true evidence.
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1
whethefakawe
Posts
129
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Location
Scottsdale, AZ US
6/17/2022 11:15am
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
1
6/17/2022 11:22am Edited Date/Time 6/17/2022 11:57am
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster...
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
Your engineer dad wasn't talking about brushless dc motors. In fact, the opposite is true: they need exact (usually digital) sequencing of the rotor's position to run at all.

You could apply as much power as you want to the windings, but if it isn't switched by the digital speed controller, the motor would just lock harder in a stationary position until it is literally in flames.
1
-MAVERICK-
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Location
Ontario CA
6/17/2022 11:23am
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster...
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
1
whethefakawe
Posts
129
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10/14/2021
Location
Scottsdale, AZ US
6/17/2022 11:57am
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster...
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
Your engineer dad wasn't talking about brushless dc motors. In fact, the opposite is true: they need exact (usually digital) sequencing of the rotor's position to...
Your engineer dad wasn't talking about brushless dc motors. In fact, the opposite is true: they need exact (usually digital) sequencing of the rotor's position to run at all.

You could apply as much power as you want to the windings, but if it isn't switched by the digital speed controller, the motor would just lock harder in a stationary position until it is literally in flames.
As I said....50 years ago. What mightily impressed pre-teen me was, without the control mechanism, it would self-destruct. I vaguely remember something about AC vs DC.

Point being, this is the ultimate in linear power......and WT will be fun to watch Laughing
6/17/2022 12:04pm Edited Date/Time 6/17/2022 12:40pm
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster...
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
Your engineer dad wasn't talking about brushless dc motors. In fact, the opposite is true: they need exact (usually digital) sequencing of the rotor's position to...
Your engineer dad wasn't talking about brushless dc motors. In fact, the opposite is true: they need exact (usually digital) sequencing of the rotor's position to run at all.

You could apply as much power as you want to the windings, but if it isn't switched by the digital speed controller, the motor would just lock harder in a stationary position until it is literally in flames.
As I said....50 years ago. What mightily impressed pre-teen me was, without the control mechanism, it would self-destruct. I vaguely remember something about AC vs DC...
As I said....50 years ago. What mightily impressed pre-teen me was, without the control mechanism, it would self-destruct. I vaguely remember something about AC vs DC.

Point being, this is the ultimate in linear power......and WT will be fun to watch Laughing
I guess my broader philosophical point is that a brushless dc motor is the opposite of the out-of-control beast you were laying forth. It is exceedingly accurate and controlled, probably even to a fault:. Everything in its behavior has to be precisely and specifically dictated in partial rotations at millisecond and even microsecond intervals, otherwise it just doesn't go.

You want to set it to revlimit at exactly 7499.76 rpm because 7500.00 is too high? No problem. It won't (and can't) do anything else, unless an external force is applied. Try that with air-fuel mixtures.

But converse of that precision is there is no: "just turn the idle screw a quarter turn, see if you like it."
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peelout
Posts
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Location
Ogden, UT US
6/17/2022 12:27pm
left a lot of bikes stands at the car-wash over the years, would be an expensive mistake
2
6/17/2022 12:33pm
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster...
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Still crazy to me how quickly it took off once he landed.
6/17/2022 12:51pm
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster...
My engineer dad told me about 50 years ago, an electric motor has interrupters built into it because it will just keep spinning faster and faster until it disintegrates. Governor, if you will. Kinda like a blip switch on the WW1 aircraft rotary engines, Red Baron style.

Whiskey throttle on an ebike will be spectacular Laughing Laughing
-MAVERICK- wrote:
The exact reason why a clutch is still very necessary on a motorcycle, regardless of what type of motor is in it.
5
fs
Posts
36
Joined
11/8/2011
Location
HR
6/17/2022 1:08pm
The exact reason why a clutch is still very necessary on a motorcycle, regardless of what type of motor is in it.
Quite a few riders who tested the Varg tried the hand brake. They stated that long term the hand brake is the better choice because it leaves both feet free and also provides more precise control of the rear brake. In a panic situation it takes away rear wheel torque just like a clutch.

In the case of a foot brake an electronic clutch lever could be added.
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Falcon
Posts
12384
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11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA US
6/17/2022 1:11pm
^ I wonder what little "isms" are going to center around e-bikes? You know, we have "lean bog," "backfire," "fuel starvation," "detonation," etc. on ICE bikes. What will we have with e-bikes? (Hopefully not "rider electrocution!")
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6/17/2022 1:27pm
Falcon wrote:
^ I wonder what little "isms" are going to center around e-bikes? You know, we have "lean bog," "backfire," "fuel starvation," "detonation," etc. on ICE bikes...
^ I wonder what little "isms" are going to center around e-bikes? You know, we have "lean bog," "backfire," "fuel starvation," "detonation," etc. on ICE bikes. What will we have with e-bikes? (Hopefully not "rider electrocution!")
Probably just battery fires if the crash is bad enough like Teslas. That's all I can think of.
I've never heard of anyone getting electrocuted while riding an electric vehicle, bike or car.
1
whethefakawe
Posts
129
Joined
10/14/2021
Location
Scottsdale, AZ US
6/17/2022 2:28pm
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at others who bring up PRACTICAL questions about new technologies based on personal knowledge, education and experience.

I make a living as a heavy equipment operator of VERY expensive machines, and my skepticism about new and immature technologies is based on self-preservation. More complicated than an e-dirtbike, but the principles are the same.

Ever hear that old warning "don't buy anything V1.0"?

Interesting and hilarious comments, and some high-level expert input so far. Some PRACTICAL questions that need to be answered before I will join the herd:

1) "Zero maintenance".
The Varg uses KYB suspension, just like Yamahas, Betas, and a few others. Did KYB invent a new type of magical suspension that doesn't need oil, fork seals, springs, O-rings, air valves etc? How about the chassis? Swingarm bearings machined from unicorn bone that doesn't need grease? Steering head bearings made from self-lubricating unobtanium ? How about the wheel bearings? Tyres don't wear or flatten? Spokes don't go loose? Rims don't bend from 3-story landings? Chains don't stretch? Sprockets don't wear? Guess them handlebars don't bend when you ragdoll over a big triple, eh? Grips made from soft Teflon? All that because the motor doesn't burn premix?
Just because you don't have to do top ends like on a 125cc 2T, doesn't mean it's "zero maintenance", ya dunce. Laughing Laughing

2) Range.
Probably the #1 concern, as with......Teslas, ePorsches, eBMWs etc. In cities (or on MX tracks) not an issue, an electricity source is probably close by. Baja? Haha.
This topic has been beaten to death and will continue to be, so I'm not wasting bandwidth on it.
"Storage" technology ie. BATTERIES lags far behind generating technology, ask any expert.

3) Cost.
Geez......I thought it might be $12K. From what people have posted, closer to 15K? Woohoo Dirtbiking started a death spiral when 4T took over (ask anybody who's been in the industry for that long) because of the COST. Now it's jumping from 10K to 15K? Good luck wi' dat!
Ask DB, MXA, anybody you want.........the sport has been sustained for the last 20 years by the geezer riders who can afford to spend that much on toys. I have 14 dirtbikes from 1978-2020, I spend lotsa $$ on them........but I refuse to pay 15K for one. Wanna bet how many other geezers feel the same?
If ya haven't figured it out, the dirtbike industry is 100% dependent on bike sales (+aftermarket, gear, fuel, parts etc), having 100K more iphone babies WATCHING won't sustain it.

4) "Save the planet".
Sure.........visualize (auralize?) 500 or 800 generators at Glen Helen every Saturday, all day.........but at least the bikes are silent Laughing
Minerals and resources.........someone posted an explanation of volume of dirt moved to produce one ton of XYZ ore. My father and brother are/were engineers in the gold mining industry, and the numbers are RIDICULOUS. Literally 1000s of tons of rock dug out of the earth to produce ONE OUNCE of gold. The precious metals used to make these batteries, not much difference. Not to mention, there's not NEARLY as much of it as gold or silver or coal.....not enough to go around, considering there will be 10 BILLION EVs on the road by 2030 Laughing OK then.
Dead batteries, what happens to them? It's NASTY hazardous waste, you can't just throw it out with the vegetable peels and beer cans. DEAFENING silence on that topic, NOBODY wants to discuss it. Why?

5) Riding area conflicts.
MX tracks? No worries. They put peewees and 85s on the track with Tomac and da boyz at Glen Helen, I'm sure it will work itself out Laughing
New tracks? If you're in an area where tracks are shut down because of noise, the property value is such that 50 or 200 open acres to build a track, you're talking $$MILLIONS. It's similar to airports in that regard. Don't plan on it Laughing
Trails and MTB parks? Lots of conflicts between hikers and equestrians vs. eMTBers already. That will only escalate as dumbasses reckon "hey this thing is silent, I can ride anywhere". Result? BANNED.

6) Startup company.
ATK, Cannondale, Buell, Husaberg, Cooper, Yankee, Venti, Titan, Roehr...........and Alta. Look 'em up, 'nuff said.

7) Gen Z
The iphone fecesbook generation, look all around you.Laughing Laughing Their children will have one square eye in the middle of the forehead and flippers with a single pointy finger. Evolution, baby! Watching instead of partaking in anything physical.
Witness the comments about "can't wait for the 2T and 4T sound to be gone so I can talk on my phone" Laughing Laughing while WATCHING others ride, not riding themselves, ie. didn't buy a bike of any kind. Gimme sum LIKES bro..........

8) Electrical infrastructure and supply.
"Chargers at MX tracks"
Ya sure, stand by, we'll lay a 12-inch cable 130 miles to the new track in Death Valley that gets 96 visitors a year.
Glen Helen? Perris? More feasible, but don't forget, the Great Police State of Kaliforniya is having rolling blackouts like in Zimbabwe and Congo for lack of generating capacity and obsolete crumbling infrastructure. I'm sure installing chargers at MX tracks is a top priority, CALPOWER will be there next week with bulldozers and shit Laughing

9) SBD.
"Silent but deadly".
I sat at sidewalk cafes in a certain European city known for its wines and cheese last summer, watching idiots with obviously NO bike experience zip down sidewalks and through traffic at 30 mph, having a grand old time. I almost got taken out by one such dipshit, he almost hit me full-on but I jumped and he only hit my arm. I wanted to beat his small brain in, but couldn't catch him.
It's the new IN thing.....free communal e-scooters, they're all over almost every US city. (Most are f**ked up by vandals and bums, but hey, it's only tax money, right?) Friend of mine was killed on that ridiculously powerful one that came out about 2 years ago, he crashed without a helmet and smashed his noggin.
Remember ATVs? those 3-wheeler things that sucked kids' legs under the wheels? They were BANNED after a few deaths. Wait till some pimple farmer kills a geezer hiker on a trail in a city park, or runs over someone's 3-year old.............


Like with EVs and self-driving vehicles, there are many insurmountable obstacles. In cities and densely populated areas, they're an excellent idea and 100% practical. Outside cities or in rural areas? Useless. How about in Africa, or Russia? Laughing Laughing

As a silent backyard racer? Hundreds mate. As long as you don't have 30 of your pals over on Sundays and have races and drink beer and play Metallica loud, of course.

I'm hoping the noisy iphone hype will give way to practical reasonable attitudes at some point. EVs can't and won't replace ICE any time soon, no matter what the TV says. But I fear ebikes will split the already small dirtbike crowd into even more factions, easily isolated and stomped out by government and green nazis.

Luckily I won't be around, or interested, if/when all dirtbiking is 100% silent....ie, extinct.

9
13
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
6/17/2022 2:38pm
peelout wrote:
left a lot of bikes stands at the car-wash over the years, would be an expensive mistake
Laughing
At least the „filled the engine with water because I forgot the air filter cover“ storys will be gone.
#434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
6/17/2022 2:42pm
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at...
It's "deplorable" how everything nowadays gets politicised, especially here in the US. Noticeable how some people, who invariably reveal themselves as TV-edumacated trend followers, snipe at others who bring up PRACTICAL questions about new technologies based on personal knowledge, education and experience.

I make a living as a heavy equipment operator of VERY expensive machines, and my skepticism about new and immature technologies is based on self-preservation. More complicated than an e-dirtbike, but the principles are the same.

Ever hear that old warning "don't buy anything V1.0"?

Interesting and hilarious comments, and some high-level expert input so far. Some PRACTICAL questions that need to be answered before I will join the herd:

1) "Zero maintenance".
The Varg uses KYB suspension, just like Yamahas, Betas, and a few others. Did KYB invent a new type of magical suspension that doesn't need oil, fork seals, springs, O-rings, air valves etc? How about the chassis? Swingarm bearings machined from unicorn bone that doesn't need grease? Steering head bearings made from self-lubricating unobtanium ? How about the wheel bearings? Tyres don't wear or flatten? Spokes don't go loose? Rims don't bend from 3-story landings? Chains don't stretch? Sprockets don't wear? Guess them handlebars don't bend when you ragdoll over a big triple, eh? Grips made from soft Teflon? All that because the motor doesn't burn premix?
Just because you don't have to do top ends like on a 125cc 2T, doesn't mean it's "zero maintenance", ya dunce. Laughing Laughing

2) Range.
Probably the #1 concern, as with......Teslas, ePorsches, eBMWs etc. In cities (or on MX tracks) not an issue, an electricity source is probably close by. Baja? Haha.
This topic has been beaten to death and will continue to be, so I'm not wasting bandwidth on it.
"Storage" technology ie. BATTERIES lags far behind generating technology, ask any expert.

3) Cost.
Geez......I thought it might be $12K. From what people have posted, closer to 15K? Woohoo Dirtbiking started a death spiral when 4T took over (ask anybody who's been in the industry for that long) because of the COST. Now it's jumping from 10K to 15K? Good luck wi' dat!
Ask DB, MXA, anybody you want.........the sport has been sustained for the last 20 years by the geezer riders who can afford to spend that much on toys. I have 14 dirtbikes from 1978-2020, I spend lotsa $$ on them........but I refuse to pay 15K for one. Wanna bet how many other geezers feel the same?
If ya haven't figured it out, the dirtbike industry is 100% dependent on bike sales (+aftermarket, gear, fuel, parts etc), having 100K more iphone babies WATCHING won't sustain it.

4) "Save the planet".
Sure.........visualize (auralize?) 500 or 800 generators at Glen Helen every Saturday, all day.........but at least the bikes are silent Laughing
Minerals and resources.........someone posted an explanation of volume of dirt moved to produce one ton of XYZ ore. My father and brother are/were engineers in the gold mining industry, and the numbers are RIDICULOUS. Literally 1000s of tons of rock dug out of the earth to produce ONE OUNCE of gold. The precious metals used to make these batteries, not much difference. Not to mention, there's not NEARLY as much of it as gold or silver or coal.....not enough to go around, considering there will be 10 BILLION EVs on the road by 2030 Laughing OK then.
Dead batteries, what happens to them? It's NASTY hazardous waste, you can't just throw it out with the vegetable peels and beer cans. DEAFENING silence on that topic, NOBODY wants to discuss it. Why?

5) Riding area conflicts.
MX tracks? No worries. They put peewees and 85s on the track with Tomac and da boyz at Glen Helen, I'm sure it will work itself out Laughing
New tracks? If you're in an area where tracks are shut down because of noise, the property value is such that 50 or 200 open acres to build a track, you're talking $$MILLIONS. It's similar to airports in that regard. Don't plan on it Laughing
Trails and MTB parks? Lots of conflicts between hikers and equestrians vs. eMTBers already. That will only escalate as dumbasses reckon "hey this thing is silent, I can ride anywhere". Result? BANNED.

6) Startup company.
ATK, Cannondale, Buell, Husaberg, Cooper, Yankee, Venti, Titan, Roehr...........and Alta. Look 'em up, 'nuff said.

7) Gen Z
The iphone fecesbook generation, look all around you.Laughing Laughing Their children will have one square eye in the middle of the forehead and flippers with a single pointy finger. Evolution, baby! Watching instead of partaking in anything physical.
Witness the comments about "can't wait for the 2T and 4T sound to be gone so I can talk on my phone" Laughing Laughing while WATCHING others ride, not riding themselves, ie. didn't buy a bike of any kind. Gimme sum LIKES bro..........

8) Electrical infrastructure and supply.
"Chargers at MX tracks"
Ya sure, stand by, we'll lay a 12-inch cable 130 miles to the new track in Death Valley that gets 96 visitors a year.
Glen Helen? Perris? More feasible, but don't forget, the Great Police State of Kaliforniya is having rolling blackouts like in Zimbabwe and Congo for lack of generating capacity and obsolete crumbling infrastructure. I'm sure installing chargers at MX tracks is a top priority, CALPOWER will be there next week with bulldozers and shit Laughing

9) SBD.
"Silent but deadly".
I sat at sidewalk cafes in a certain European city known for its wines and cheese last summer, watching idiots with obviously NO bike experience zip down sidewalks and through traffic at 30 mph, having a grand old time. I almost got taken out by one such dipshit, he almost hit me full-on but I jumped and he only hit my arm. I wanted to beat his small brain in, but couldn't catch him.
It's the new IN thing.....free communal e-scooters, they're all over almost every US city. (Most are f**ked up by vandals and bums, but hey, it's only tax money, right?) Friend of mine was killed on that ridiculously powerful one that came out about 2 years ago, he crashed without a helmet and smashed his noggin.
Remember ATVs? those 3-wheeler things that sucked kids' legs under the wheels? They were BANNED after a few deaths. Wait till some pimple farmer kills a geezer hiker on a trail in a city park, or runs over someone's 3-year old.............


Like with EVs and self-driving vehicles, there are many insurmountable obstacles. In cities and densely populated areas, they're an excellent idea and 100% practical. Outside cities or in rural areas? Useless. How about in Africa, or Russia? Laughing Laughing

As a silent backyard racer? Hundreds mate. As long as you don't have 30 of your pals over on Sundays and have races and drink beer and play Metallica loud, of course.

I'm hoping the noisy iphone hype will give way to practical reasonable attitudes at some point. EVs can't and won't replace ICE any time soon, no matter what the TV says. But I fear ebikes will split the already small dirtbike crowd into even more factions, easily isolated and stomped out by government and green nazis.

Luckily I won't be around, or interested, if/when all dirtbiking is 100% silent....ie, extinct.

You start your hour long gibberish with „everything nowadays gets politicised“ and end up at „green nazis“… wtf?!?
6
6
mx617
Posts
1614
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Trail CA
6/17/2022 6:20pm
#434 wrote:
You start your hour long gibberish with „everything nowadays gets politicised“ and end up at „green nazis“… wtf?!?
That was a description of what his essay is about
1

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