VITALMX asked and Polar delivered

Brent
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Brent 3/18/2022 1:06pm
3/18/2022 1:06pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2022 1:14pm
mtl wrote:
The Litpro Laptime Bundle might disagree.

https://www.litprolive.com/hardware

Call Mike and ask him yourself.

I did testing with them last year.

The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual XGPS 160. Polar is a great product, and It does work, but if you are trying to get better lap times, the 5 to 10 percent variance in times between Polar alone versus Polar linking with the XGPS is kind of huge.

With sports that have high rates of acceleration and speed like motor racing, and quick changes in direction, the single GPS devices have a hard time providing accurate data.
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Wayne@PolarUSA 3/19/2022 6:53am
3/19/2022 6:53am

One more Sports Profile was also added.
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mtl
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mtl 3/19/2022 8:57am
3/19/2022 8:57am
Brent wrote:
Call Mike and ask him yourself. I did testing with them last year. The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual...
Call Mike and ask him yourself.

I did testing with them last year.

The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual XGPS 160. Polar is a great product, and It does work, but if you are trying to get better lap times, the 5 to 10 percent variance in times between Polar alone versus Polar linking with the XGPS is kind of huge.

With sports that have high rates of acceleration and speed like motor racing, and quick changes in direction, the single GPS devices have a hard time providing accurate data.
Is it the single GPS that is the problem or the actual update frequency?

What stops the GPS from being sampled at a higher frequency?

(FWIW, I spent a lot of time designing and building in sensor world for my PhD dissertation and have a genuine interest but never played w GPS units)
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Brent
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Brent 3/19/2022 12:09pm
3/19/2022 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2022 12:25pm
Brent wrote:
Call Mike and ask him yourself. I did testing with them last year. The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual...
Call Mike and ask him yourself.

I did testing with them last year.

The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual XGPS 160. Polar is a great product, and It does work, but if you are trying to get better lap times, the 5 to 10 percent variance in times between Polar alone versus Polar linking with the XGPS is kind of huge.

With sports that have high rates of acceleration and speed like motor racing, and quick changes in direction, the single GPS devices have a hard time providing accurate data.
mtl wrote:
Is it the single GPS that is the problem or the actual update frequency? What stops the GPS from being sampled at a higher frequency? (FWIW...
Is it the single GPS that is the problem or the actual update frequency?

What stops the GPS from being sampled at a higher frequency?

(FWIW, I spent a lot of time designing and building in sensor world for my PhD dissertation and have a genuine interest but never played w GPS units)
The single low power GPS radios in wrist worn devices can’t accurately track rapid directional and speed changes. I think they said the battery would die quickly if it had more frequent pinging or something.

Polar does a pretty good job by itself considering that it is such a small device, but it has limitations in accuracy on a motocross track when it records speed and lap tmes. Lit Pro tells you this in on their site.

When you combine data from both devices you get a really accurate picture of exactly what your lap times are, and what lines to take, as well as accurate HR data. Lit Pro even suggests what lines to take to lower your lap times based on the XGPS data.

But if somebody just wants general lap times and heart rate info, then the Polar by itself is a great choice.

The Shop

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Thisusernameisavailable 3/19/2022 3:05pm
3/19/2022 3:05pm
CG118 wrote:
Haha. I like my Garmin, but I try to support those that support our sport. Hell, I still get subs from Subway, because of their support...
Haha. I like my Garmin, but I try to support those that support our sport.
Hell, I still get subs from Subway, because of their support long ago.
Even started drinking Sam Adams more because they are somehow related to Twisted Tea.
My next car might be from Star.
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
Same! Love my Garmin, but if Polar are doing things for my sport, Im in! (My Garmin was a birthday present.) But I asked a legitimate...
Same!
Love my Garmin, but if Polar are doing things for my sport, Im in! (My Garmin was a birthday present.)

But I asked a legitimate question above and have been ignored, so.. Maybe a Polar isn't for me.
GrapeApe wrote:
You answered your own question, in your same post.
You’ve lost me?! Which of my questions have I answered? Help me out here..
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kNewc
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kNewc 3/19/2022 6:16pm
3/19/2022 6:16pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2022 6:17pm
Brent wrote:
Call Mike and ask him yourself. I did testing with them last year. The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual...
Call Mike and ask him yourself.

I did testing with them last year.

The watch with a single GPS radio is not accurate as the dual XGPS 160. Polar is a great product, and It does work, but if you are trying to get better lap times, the 5 to 10 percent variance in times between Polar alone versus Polar linking with the XGPS is kind of huge.

With sports that have high rates of acceleration and speed like motor racing, and quick changes in direction, the single GPS devices have a hard time providing accurate data.
mtl wrote:
Is it the single GPS that is the problem or the actual update frequency? What stops the GPS from being sampled at a higher frequency? (FWIW...
Is it the single GPS that is the problem or the actual update frequency?

What stops the GPS from being sampled at a higher frequency?

(FWIW, I spent a lot of time designing and building in sensor world for my PhD dissertation and have a genuine interest but never played w GPS units)
Brent wrote:
The single low power GPS radios in wrist worn devices can’t accurately track rapid directional and speed changes. I think they said the battery would die...
The single low power GPS radios in wrist worn devices can’t accurately track rapid directional and speed changes. I think they said the battery would die quickly if it had more frequent pinging or something.

Polar does a pretty good job by itself considering that it is such a small device, but it has limitations in accuracy on a motocross track when it records speed and lap tmes. Lit Pro tells you this in on their site.

When you combine data from both devices you get a really accurate picture of exactly what your lap times are, and what lines to take, as well as accurate HR data. Lit Pro even suggests what lines to take to lower your lap times based on the XGPS data.

But if somebody just wants general lap times and heart rate info, then the Polar by itself is a great choice.
It has nothing to do with power, and about the frequency. Current, small, watch sized GPS units only come in 10hz. the XPGS160, CrossBox, LitPro, RaceBox, Etc... have 25hz GPS units. This makes all the difference...Crossbox and others will say they can fix the latency issues, but if you look at the raw GPS data (which is easy, there are tons of GPX file viewers out there) you'll see otherwise. 10hz is like pinging a satellite 10 times every second, where 25hz is pinging 25 times every second. That latency may not matter if biking, walking, or canoeing. But it can be a pretty big difference when car racing, or going on a tight motocross track.
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mtl
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mtl 3/19/2022 6:50pm
3/19/2022 6:50pm
kNewc wrote:
It has nothing to do with power, and about the frequency. Current, small, watch sized GPS units only come in 10hz. the XPGS160, CrossBox, LitPro, RaceBox...
It has nothing to do with power, and about the frequency. Current, small, watch sized GPS units only come in 10hz. the XPGS160, CrossBox, LitPro, RaceBox, Etc... have 25hz GPS units. This makes all the difference...Crossbox and others will say they can fix the latency issues, but if you look at the raw GPS data (which is easy, there are tons of GPX file viewers out there) you'll see otherwise. 10hz is like pinging a satellite 10 times every second, where 25hz is pinging 25 times every second. That latency may not matter if biking, walking, or canoeing. But it can be a pretty big difference when car racing, or going on a tight motocross track.
Are you sure?

According to Dual, the XGPS160 is operating at 10Hz.




https://www.dualgpssolutions.com/explore-by-product/xgps160
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kNewc
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kNewc 3/19/2022 7:01pm
3/19/2022 7:01pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2022 7:02pm
kNewc wrote:
It has nothing to do with power, and about the frequency. Current, small, watch sized GPS units only come in 10hz. the XPGS160, CrossBox, LitPro, RaceBox...
It has nothing to do with power, and about the frequency. Current, small, watch sized GPS units only come in 10hz. the XPGS160, CrossBox, LitPro, RaceBox, Etc... have 25hz GPS units. This makes all the difference...Crossbox and others will say they can fix the latency issues, but if you look at the raw GPS data (which is easy, there are tons of GPX file viewers out there) you'll see otherwise. 10hz is like pinging a satellite 10 times every second, where 25hz is pinging 25 times every second. That latency may not matter if biking, walking, or canoeing. But it can be a pretty big difference when car racing, or going on a tight motocross track.
mtl wrote:
Are you sure? According to Dual, the XGPS160 is operating at 10Hz. [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/03/19/539051/s1200_XGPS160.jpg[/img] https://www.dualgpssolutions.com/explore-by-product/xgps160
Are you sure?

According to Dual, the XGPS160 is operating at 10Hz.




https://www.dualgpssolutions.com/explore-by-product/xgps160
I always thought it was 25hz. It does use GLONASS so I wonder if that helps...I haven't seen the raw data from one yet. I used it a few years ago and lost it since then. I've done testing with tons of watches, Iphones, and GoPro since losing a xpgs I had.GoPro says its at around 18hz and it's GPX data is noticeably different/better then any watch I've tried. iPhones with GLONASS and on Celluar do better than any watch I've tried. Maybe it does have to do with power...I will say the Garmin Instinct watch I used was way closer then the Apple Watch.
Brent
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Brent 3/19/2022 8:12pm
3/19/2022 8:12pm Edited Date/Time 3/19/2022 8:19pm
kNewc wrote:
I always thought it was 25hz. It does use GLONASS so I wonder if that helps...I haven't seen the raw data from one yet. I used...
I always thought it was 25hz. It does use GLONASS so I wonder if that helps...I haven't seen the raw data from one yet. I used it a few years ago and lost it since then. I've done testing with tons of watches, Iphones, and GoPro since losing a xpgs I had.GoPro says its at around 18hz and it's GPX data is noticeably different/better then any watch I've tried. iPhones with GLONASS and on Celluar do better than any watch I've tried. Maybe it does have to do with power...I will say the Garmin Instinct watch I used was way closer then the Apple Watch.
Yeah, for accurate GPS tracking Apple watches suck.

I'm no engineer, nor am I a GPS expert. All I know is that I was told that the Single radio GPS watches were not up to the task for producing accurate data for track position and speed for rapid directional and speed changes. They are not designed for GPS use in Motorsports.

I can look at the data from just my Polar watch on Lit Pro, and I can see the data from the XGPS unit next to it.

The XGPS data is much more accurate than just the watch data.
DAG
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DAG 3/20/2022 2:59am
3/20/2022 2:59am
My understanding of gps is that public GPS cannot be super accurate for security reasons. A watch sampling at a high rate is capable of providing you with a very accurate path description ( 10 sample points along the path compared to say 25, how many do you really need to know you were going in a straightine or an arc of a corner?) but laterally they are only accurate to 3 m. This means you may be in the inside of a corner or the outside. The path will still show as a corner but there is no way of telling if you were inside or outside truly. It may show as inside or outside but it may not necessarily be accurate.

This is how I understood it a few years ago. Maybe they have relaxed this regulation and they are more capable now? I have a M400 and a M600 . The M600 seems to eat battery life and is somewhat finicky compared to the workhorse 400...is there a better upgrade I should be looking at in the Polar line?
kNewc
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kNewc 3/20/2022 4:38am
3/20/2022 4:38am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2022 4:39am
DAG wrote:
My understanding of gps is that public GPS cannot be super accurate for security reasons. A watch sampling at a high rate is capable of providing...
My understanding of gps is that public GPS cannot be super accurate for security reasons. A watch sampling at a high rate is capable of providing you with a very accurate path description ( 10 sample points along the path compared to say 25, how many do you really need to know you were going in a straightine or an arc of a corner?) but laterally they are only accurate to 3 m. This means you may be in the inside of a corner or the outside. The path will still show as a corner but there is no way of telling if you were inside or outside truly. It may show as inside or outside but it may not necessarily be accurate.

This is how I understood it a few years ago. Maybe they have relaxed this regulation and they are more capable now? I have a M400 and a M600 . The M600 seems to eat battery life and is somewhat finicky compared to the workhorse 400...is there a better upgrade I should be looking at in the Polar line?
Basically what we are all saying in the last few posts are that no matter what watch you have, it just isn't as accurate as a stand-alone device (xgps, etc). Next time you ride, get a GPX export of your ride from your M400 and see what the actual GPS data looks like.
https://support.polar.com/en/export-training-sessions-flow
A TCX or GPX contains a time stamp and your GEO locations (latitude/longitude). It's the raw GPS data that is input to LitPro, MXBuddy, CrossBox, etc... So if you put that file into a reader you see your exact GPS positions at the exact times. Not what LitPro or CrossBox shows you (they try to "correct" these files).
There are tons of free apps/software that will allow you to open these files. Even websites https://www.gpsvisualizer.com/
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Lynch
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Lynch 3/20/2022 6:25am
3/20/2022 6:25am Edited Date/Time 3/20/2022 6:26am
So which watch are you guys using? Looking to replace my old M400 and M430/H7 strap combo.
kNewc
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kNewc 3/20/2022 6:29am
3/20/2022 6:29am
Lynch wrote:
So which watch are you guys using? Looking to replace my old M400 and M430/H7 strap combo.
From what I've researched, if you like the Polar you had but want an upgrade then choose any off their new line. LitPro recommends the Vantage M which seems pretty sick to me.
Wayne@PolarUSA 3/21/2022 5:55am
3/21/2022 5:55am
Please be aware that the Polar Unite and Ignite2 are touch screen, and this could be an issue with gloves.
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GrapeApe 3/21/2022 6:07am
3/21/2022 6:07am
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
Same! Love my Garmin, but if Polar are doing things for my sport, Im in! (My Garmin was a birthday present.) But I asked a legitimate...
Same!
Love my Garmin, but if Polar are doing things for my sport, Im in! (My Garmin was a birthday present.)

But I asked a legitimate question above and have been ignored, so.. Maybe a Polar isn't for me.
GrapeApe wrote:
You answered your own question, in your same post.
Thisusernameisavailable wrote:
You’ve lost me?! Which of my questions have I answered? Help me out here..
You asked what does the Polar do that your Garmin doesn't. You see where you said you had to manually create a motocross activity tab on your Garmin? You don't have to do that on the Polar.

Then you said you're not going to buy a Polar because they didn't immediately answer your question, which is par for your course.
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Brosho
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Brosho 3/21/2022 7:09am
3/21/2022 7:09am
Wayne@PolarUSA wrote:
Just a FYI, some of the watches current Operating Systems my not upload the specific icon, but the sports profile will download and be sport specific.
Which Polar watch or other item do you suggest for MX and this new APP?
Wayne@PolarUSA 3/21/2022 7:19am
3/21/2022 7:19am
I think the Vantage M2 and the H9 transmitter is a nice bundle. I highly suggest putting the watch on your bars and off your wrist, keep is safe if you dump the bike.
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dedi684
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dedi684 3/21/2022 8:29am
3/21/2022 8:29am
Wayne@PolarUSA wrote:
I think the Vantage M2 and the H9 transmitter is a nice bundle. I highly suggest putting the watch on your bars and off your wrist...
I think the Vantage M2 and the H9 transmitter is a nice bundle. I highly suggest putting the watch on your bars and off your wrist, keep is safe if you dump the bike.
That's all I'd need for off the bike training as well?

Pit Row

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Brent
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Brent 3/21/2022 9:26am
3/21/2022 9:26am
dedi684 wrote:
That's all I'd need for off the bike training as well?
That’s all I use every day seven days a week for off the motorcycle training. I use the vantage M and the H-10 with the Polar flow app. I also have the Polar digital scale to keep track of my fat ass.
CR92
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CR92 3/25/2022 6:54am
3/25/2022 6:54am
Wayne@polarUSA, first off I have a polar, love the watch, and am very thankful that you all were willing to develop something moto specific.
That said, I was have a friend who's job is to develop bank security software and had a question or two about the software polar uses. His exact questions are:
"1. What is the operating system the watch is developed from and uses (e.g. Linux, android, iOS, Microsoft)?
2. Does the watch have all features and services when paired with an iPhone?"
The first question is one I'm curious about as well.
Any info is appreciated!
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KurtJ99 3/25/2022 7:03am
3/25/2022 7:03am
Brent wrote:
Yeah, for accurate GPS tracking Apple watches suck. I'm no engineer, nor am I a GPS expert. All I know is that I was told that...
Yeah, for accurate GPS tracking Apple watches suck.

I'm no engineer, nor am I a GPS expert. All I know is that I was told that the Single radio GPS watches were not up to the task for producing accurate data for track position and speed for rapid directional and speed changes. They are not designed for GPS use in Motorsports.

I can look at the data from just my Polar watch on Lit Pro, and I can see the data from the XGPS unit next to it.

The XGPS data is much more accurate than just the watch data.
Slow Vet rider here. I was using the Apple Watch and it sucked for GPS. I picked up an XGPS160 and mounted it in the crossbar pad. Hyper accurate. Paired with MXbuddy app, it’s fun to see what your best laps were and where you can improve. I still use the Apple Watch for heart rate but it’s inconsistent so I’ll pick up the polar.
2
Wayne@PolarUSA 3/25/2022 7:08am
3/25/2022 7:08am
Hi CR92, thank you for training with Polar. Answers below
#1 This is a global question, something not really discussed, this link might help. https://support.polar.com/en/contact
#2 The only added features when paired with an iPhone is weather and music controls, depending on the watch. A Polar watch can work independently of a phone. Hope this helped and I understood your question. When you first set up your watch, you use Flowsync or the phone to complete the process and assign it to your account.
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mx510
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mx510 3/25/2022 7:24am
3/25/2022 7:24am
Wayne@PolarUSA, thank you for doing this and telling us about it. Just updated and added motocross to my sport profile!
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Crossup 3/25/2022 11:36am
3/25/2022 11:36am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2022 11:39am
Wayne@PolarUSA wrote:
Thanks for the feedback and sorry it has taken this long, but we did it, checkered flags are out!! Polar announced new sports profile, and prior...
Thanks for the feedback and sorry it has taken this long, but we did it, checkered flags are out!! Polar announced new sports profile, and prior to the announcement internally, I caught a peek and had to stick to the embargo LOL! Thank you for your support. Polar code FAMILY20 for a 20% discount, some restrictions apply. The top riders still use the transmitter, the H9 works great with a watch, the H10 can record a training session with no watch, just use the Polar Beat app.


I got to tell you Wayne, Polar is an awesome company. I go back to the Rick Schulz days and used to see him at the bike trade shows. I'm on a Polar Vantage M now and love it. The fact that you guys take the extra time to listen to customers and set up a new Moto sports profile is great.

There are companies that don't seem to care as much. A couple of years ago I was using Strava on my motorcycle and getting pinged by mountain bikers that were pissed that I was beating their KOMs. I didn't know, I get it, so I stopped using Strava on bike profile. I got a contact from a friend of mine knew a developer at Strava. I thought Strava was a great app and I emailed them to see if they could create sports profile choices for Motocross and for Enduro riding. The answer I got back is that Strava is a human powered company and they weren't interested in any sports profiles outside of that. I spoke with him about this being a better product for the customer that is trying to track their fitness and their performance in their sport. Why do they care so much about what the sport is? Again they gave me a more political answer about not being interested in those sports (i.e. customers). For an app that is trying to get more participation and subscriber services I'm not sure why this was such a big deal.
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DAG
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DAG 3/25/2022 12:17pm
3/25/2022 12:17pm
HI Wayne, Got a great deal on Amazon on a Polar M so please tell your boss's your time on this forum generated a sale. I know its not your latest but was in my budget.Thank you for being involved and answering questions about a great product.
1
Wayne@PolarUSA 3/25/2022 12:49pm
3/25/2022 12:49pm
DAG wrote:
HI Wayne, Got a great deal on Amazon on a Polar M so please tell your boss's your time on this forum generated a sale. I...
HI Wayne, Got a great deal on Amazon on a Polar M so please tell your boss's your time on this forum generated a sale. I know its not your latest but was in my budget.Thank you for being involved and answering questions about a great product.
Thank you and my passion is that I became a huge fan of SX/MX, I listen to numerous podcasts, PulpMX, Whiskey Throttle, Swap Moto, and now Big MX Radio. I attend Metlife, Foxborough, Southwick and this year added Dilla. I LOVE THIS SPORT! I originally started supporting the factory teams, and then factory supported teams and try to help privateers when possible. I do not play fantasy, and the LCQ's are gut wrenching for me, because we support many riders. The Vantage M and the H9 is plenty of features, welcome to Polar and even though it is not the latest, it gets the job done! We are seeding some pro riders the VM for their bars, except for BAM BAM, he keeps his red V2 on the bars. Anyone attending the Foxborough live show for PulpMX, I will be there with prizes!
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Natester551v
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Natester551v 3/30/2022 6:57am
3/30/2022 6:57am
DAG wrote:
HI Wayne, Got a great deal on Amazon on a Polar M so please tell your boss's your time on this forum generated a sale. I...
HI Wayne, Got a great deal on Amazon on a Polar M so please tell your boss's your time on this forum generated a sale. I know its not your latest but was in my budget.Thank you for being involved and answering questions about a great product.
Wayne@PolarUSA wrote:
Thank you and my passion is that I became a huge fan of SX/MX, I listen to numerous podcasts, PulpMX, Whiskey Throttle, Swap Moto, and now...
Thank you and my passion is that I became a huge fan of SX/MX, I listen to numerous podcasts, PulpMX, Whiskey Throttle, Swap Moto, and now Big MX Radio. I attend Metlife, Foxborough, Southwick and this year added Dilla. I LOVE THIS SPORT! I originally started supporting the factory teams, and then factory supported teams and try to help privateers when possible. I do not play fantasy, and the LCQ's are gut wrenching for me, because we support many riders. The Vantage M and the H9 is plenty of features, welcome to Polar and even though it is not the latest, it gets the job done! We are seeding some pro riders the VM for their bars, except for BAM BAM, he keeps his red V2 on the bars. Anyone attending the Foxborough live show for PulpMX, I will be there with prizes!
Just upgraded to the Polar Vantage M2 - love my original Polar Vantage. Thanks, Wayne! Cool to have Enduro and Hard Enduro modes...been using them this week....
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murph783
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murph783 3/30/2022 7:56am
3/30/2022 7:56am
dedi684 wrote:
That's all I'd need for off the bike training as well?
Brent wrote:
That’s all I use every day seven days a week for off the motorcycle training. I use the vantage M and the H-10 with the Polar...
That’s all I use every day seven days a week for off the motorcycle training. I use the vantage M and the H-10 with the Polar flow app. I also have the Polar digital scale to keep track of my fat ass.
I’m also running a vantage M and H-10 which I believe is the last gen version of what he’s recommending. Couldn’t be happier. I’ll probably upgrade toward the end of this season to the new and improved
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Brent
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Brent 3/30/2022 11:56am
3/30/2022 11:56am Edited Date/Time 3/30/2022 11:57am
KurtJ99 wrote:
Slow Vet rider here. I was using the Apple Watch and it sucked for GPS. I picked up an XGPS160 and mounted it in the crossbar...
Slow Vet rider here. I was using the Apple Watch and it sucked for GPS. I picked up an XGPS160 and mounted it in the crossbar pad. Hyper accurate. Paired with MXbuddy app, it’s fun to see what your best laps were and where you can improve. I still use the Apple Watch for heart rate but it’s inconsistent so I’ll pick up the polar.
I'm an old slow vet rider myself, and the Polar/ XGPS combo makes me push harder than I would normally.

Its kind of like Strava for Motocross - this way I can see how I'm doing as compared to other guys:


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mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
mxtech1 3/30/2022 8:43pm
3/30/2022 8:43pm Edited Date/Time 3/30/2022 8:45pm
XGPS160 runs at 10hz which means 10 GPS data points per second. I believe most sport watches with GPS are only running 1hz.

To put that difference into perspective, if you are going 30mph down a straight, the XGPS is going to capture a data point every 4.4 feet. @ 1 hz at the same speed, you would travel 44 feet between data points. That’s a noticeable difference in motocross data and the XGPS160 is hands-down a superior GPS device for backend analysis in LitPro or Aimsports RS3 software.
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