Maybe This Will Shut Them Up, Probably Not....

dgmx
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12/16/2021 8:33am
What blows my mind is that we call +25 a “vet” class. I think it had merit back when the top pros retired in their early 20s but at the moment majority of the elite 450 riders are mid to late 20s. In my opinion the vet class should start at 35 years old.
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DC
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12/16/2021 8:35am
DC wrote:
Both would be limited to Junior +25 and Masters +50 veterans, as both qualified for AMA Supercross and AMA Nationals. For what it's worth, I would...
Both would be limited to Junior +25 and Masters +50 veterans, as both qualified for AMA Supercross and AMA Nationals.

For what it's worth, I would also be limited to those two as well--I scored 12 glorious points in 1985!

DC
Racer X
Gary Duck wrote:
If you and Foz didn't get credit for the points then why do you hold it agianst them/you now?
I don't understand, I did get credit for the points. I finished ninth at Daytona and 20th in Houston, then tore up my knee and headed to college. Billy scored seven points in 1990, including 15th at Daytona.

DC
Racer X
Gary Duck
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12/16/2021 8:51am
DC wrote:
I don't understand, I did get credit for the points. I finished ninth at Daytona and 20th in Houston, then tore up my knee and headed...
I don't understand, I did get credit for the points. I finished ninth at Daytona and 20th in Houston, then tore up my knee and headed to college. Billy scored seven points in 1990, including 15th at Daytona.

DC
Racer X
12 "National points" should have earned you a top 100 "National number" somewhere in the high 80s to 90s. Up until very recently 250t/450 points counted as National points but 125/250 E/W did not.

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moto804
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12/16/2021 8:54am
It seems the answer to the OP's thread title - NO, this will not "shut them up!"

I dont think there is any formula that will make everyone happy (as illustrated by Slipdog and Meisters back to back posts complaining in opposite directions on this change).

MX Sports had to draw a line somewhere that they could enforce. They tried the B/C classes before and it was impossible to police. People have suggested doing it by other standards, but MX Sports has The Vault that they have researched and maintain. From that, they can strictly enforce the line they have drawn. I don't think there is such a database for any other metric that has been proposed (the vault doesn't have back to 40th in all classes at all races - AMA website is near impossible to find anything).

I thought 2 Sportsman classes and 3 "open" was enough, but also think this change is fine. I checked North Central Vet Regional results from last year. This change would have only impacted 2 riders - Jim Povolny (who won, but didn't go to Lorettas) and a 60+ guy who DNFd, but hasn't scored an AMA point since 1978. The change will probably impact more folks in the South-east or West regions, but probably still not too many.

I look forward to this same thread coming up again just before regionals and just before the national. It does every year and always will. No way to make everyone happy.
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The Shop

DC
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12/16/2021 8:59am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2021 9:04am
DC wrote:
I don't understand, I did get credit for the points. I finished ninth at Daytona and 20th in Houston, then tore up my knee and headed...
I don't understand, I did get credit for the points. I finished ninth at Daytona and 20th in Houston, then tore up my knee and headed to college. Billy scored seven points in 1990, including 15th at Daytona.

DC
Racer X
Gary Duck wrote:
12 "National points" should have earned you a top 100 "National number" somewhere in the high 80s to 90s. Up until very recently 250t/450 points counted...
12 "National points" should have earned you a top 100 "National number" somewhere in the high 80s to 90s. Up until very recently 250t/450 points counted as National points but 125/250 E/W did not.

Well it always counted in my book! Loretta Lynn's too.

Professional licensed riders who earned a professional point in any year are not eligible for any “B”, “C”, or “Sportsman” class, i.e., College (18-24), Vet 30+, Senior 40+, or Senior 45+ To verify a result, visit The Vault; Riders listed in The Vault who have earned a professional point are not eligible to compete in these classes. https://vault.racerxonline.com/.

DC
Racer X
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DonM
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Fantasy
12/16/2021 9:09am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2021 9:12am
Maybe it’s time to re-name the 25+ to a Legends class for ex-pros

Not really an age class but for those that haven’t held a pro license for 5 yrs…
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Motoxdoc
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12/16/2021 9:13am
40acres wrote:
Do you even know who you're calling a douche? Zoom does more for this sport than you could ever dream of. No need to come in...
Do you even know who you're calling a douche? Zoom does more for this sport than you could ever dream of. No need to come in here and talk down to anyone or resort to name calling.
Doesn’t everyone deserve that kind of respect?…. It shouldn’t matter what you’ve done for the sport.
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Sandusky26
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12/16/2021 9:19am
slipdog wrote:
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week...
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week. Now if my son qualifies in the 65 class next year and I want to go with him I have to race 25+ against guys like Ryan Dungey and Josh Hill.

This is BULLSHIT!!!



1997 Troy Ohio.
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Moto520
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12/16/2021 9:29am
The problem is in the exceptions. The constant exceptions to the rules. I don't care who races with me or any of that. I just want the rules to be the rules and to have them be enforceable.
Dirtysmile56
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12/16/2021 9:34am
I think it should be if you ever had a pro license not if you ever scored a pro point but I don’t race vet classes...
I think it should be if you ever had a pro license not if you ever scored a pro point but I don’t race vet classes yet so it’s whatever. I downvoted you just for being a douche and not understanding how weekend warriors are aggravated about racing former pros at an amateur event.
Aren't the former pros weekend warriors now too? Who cares man. Line up and race if you want and if not, stay home. Now there are...
Aren't the former pros weekend warriors now too? Who cares man. Line up and race if you want and if not, stay home. Now there are three classes that keep the pros (even if they are 45) out and somehow it's still not good enough. Maybe they need too say anyone who may be related or rode with a pro before or got an autograph from a pro can't race either. Would that be good enough for you?

Some guys actually think it's cool to line up with Mike Brown, Jeff Emig, Robbie Reynard etc.
You can still line up with them
Falcon
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12/16/2021 9:35am
I like it. I doubt I'll ever have the time or money to compete at Loretta's, but now there's a class for me that I could conceivably qualify for (+45 Sportsman.) I honestly wouldn't have much hope of qualifying in a class that held former pros, because they all live the places where I'd be doing my areas and regionals. Not much chance of me beating the likes of Emig, Lechien, Hughes, et. al.
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8tensolutions
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12/16/2021 9:44am
Seems reasonable. I have never done any better than podium a local B race, and I want to try to make it for the 40+ when...
Seems reasonable. I have never done any better than podium a local B race, and I want to try to make it for the 40+ when I am old enough, nice to know I can try for 45+ too.

LL is an amateur race, let the people who were never pros enjoy it. Once we are all 50+, then sure, all bets are off ha.
If you have never done better than a local B podium, it is doubtful you're one of the 40 fastest guys in your age group nationally......nor am I and that's just the way it is. Definitely try to qualify and if you put in the work leading up to it, maybe you can make it.
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slipdog
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12/16/2021 9:44am
slipdog wrote:
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week...
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week. Now if my son qualifies in the 65 class next year and I want to go with him I have to race 25+ against guys like Ryan Dungey and Josh Hill.

This is BULLSHIT!!!



Sandusky26 wrote:
1997 Troy Ohio.
Haha, thanks for remembering me... No points in '97, had a solid top 10 going but over cooked myself trying to keep pace and heat stroked my way to a DNF at the half way flags...
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8tensolutions
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12/16/2021 9:50am
Falcon wrote:
I like it. I doubt I'll ever have the time or money to compete at Loretta's, but now there's a class for me that I could...
I like it. I doubt I'll ever have the time or money to compete at Loretta's, but now there's a class for me that I could conceivably qualify for (+45 Sportsman.) I honestly wouldn't have much hope of qualifying in a class that held former pros, because they all live the places where I'd be doing my areas and regionals. Not much chance of me beating the likes of Emig, Lechien, Hughes, et. al.
That's great, but even in prior years you don't have to beat them, you just have to qualify in the top 40 based on your Area or Regionals.....and you can go to those races in other parts of the country too.
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LungButter
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12/16/2021 9:56am
Reality is, the dudes who are the most upset about this don't even run at the front of their class at Local events.....let alone have the speed to qualify for Loretta's.
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JBlain619
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12/16/2021 10:00am
slipdog wrote:
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week...
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week. Now if my son qualifies in the 65 class next year and I want to go with him I have to race 25+ against guys like Ryan Dungey and Josh Hill.

This is BULLSHIT!!!



Sandusky26 wrote:
1997 Troy Ohio.
slipdog wrote:
Haha, thanks for remembering me... No points in '97, had a solid top 10 going but over cooked myself trying to keep pace and heat stroked...
Haha, thanks for remembering me... No points in '97, had a solid top 10 going but over cooked myself trying to keep pace and heat stroked my way to a DNF at the half way flags...
It was soooooooo hot that year!
Meister
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12/16/2021 10:20am
LungButter wrote:
Reality is, the dudes who are the most upset about this don't even run at the front of their class at Local events.....let alone have the...
Reality is, the dudes who are the most upset about this don't even run at the front of their class at Local events.....let alone have the speed to qualify for Loretta's.
Don't lump us all in to that crowd who post here.

I just found out there's a regional an hour from me for once. Pretty pumped about that.

Atleast I'm not asking for a giant overhaul.
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Gary Duck
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12/16/2021 10:22am
DC wrote:
Well it always counted in my book! Loretta Lynn's too. Professional licensed riders who earned a professional point in any year are not eligible for any...
Well it always counted in my book! Loretta Lynn's too.

Professional licensed riders who earned a professional point in any year are not eligible for any “B”, “C”, or “Sportsman” class, i.e., College (18-24), Vet 30+, Senior 40+, or Senior 45+ To verify a result, visit The Vault; Riders listed in The Vault who have earned a professional point are not eligible to compete in these classes. https://vault.racerxonline.com/.

DC
Racer X
Fair enough, I feel like they should have counted too I just assumed for Loretta's the points were looked at the way AMA looked at them back then.
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DC
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12/16/2021 10:41am
slipdog wrote:
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week...
I haven't qualified for a Pro national in 17yrs, Haven't earned a national point in 28yrs, I almost never ride anymore and work 50+hrs a week. Now if my son qualifies in the 65 class next year and I want to go with him I have to race 25+ against guys like Ryan Dungey and Josh Hill.

This is BULLSHIT!!!



Sandusky26 wrote:
1997 Troy Ohio.
slipdog wrote:
Haha, thanks for remembering me... No points in '97, had a solid top 10 going but over cooked myself trying to keep pace and heat stroked...
Haha, thanks for remembering me... No points in '97, had a solid top 10 going but over cooked myself trying to keep pace and heat stroked my way to a DNF at the half way flags...
Kenworthy's 1997 was without a day the hottest race I have ever been to. I barely made it to the halfway mark as well, and I was just the pit reporter!

The Pulp MX Re-Raceables that Matthes and Weege did about it is really cool:

http://pulpmx.com/podcast/troy-mx-1997/

DC
Racer X
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DC
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12/16/2021 10:46am
DC wrote:
Well it always counted in my book! Loretta Lynn's too. Professional licensed riders who earned a professional point in any year are not eligible for any...
Well it always counted in my book! Loretta Lynn's too.

Professional licensed riders who earned a professional point in any year are not eligible for any “B”, “C”, or “Sportsman” class, i.e., College (18-24), Vet 30+, Senior 40+, or Senior 45+ To verify a result, visit The Vault; Riders listed in The Vault who have earned a professional point are not eligible to compete in these classes. https://vault.racerxonline.com/.

DC
Racer X
Gary Duck wrote:
Fair enough, I feel like they should have counted too I just assumed for Loretta's the points were looked at the way AMA looked at them...
Fair enough, I feel like they should have counted too I just assumed for Loretta's the points were looked at the way AMA looked at them back then.
I understand why they didn't count for a national number back in the day when 125 SX was just getting started (1985) but over the years that class has become more and more competitive, and the AMA finally decided to count the points a few years back towards handing out those top-100 numbers. It hasn't been consistent, I know, but it has been a good way for us to draw the line on who is a Sportsman and who is a past pro, based on what they did when they were younger.

DC
Racer X
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Moto520
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12/16/2021 11:17am Edited Date/Time 12/16/2021 11:24am
So....to be clear....if you raced in a 125 east supercross class in 1995 and finished 15th.....are you eligible for the sportsman's class? When did they start paying points that count? Are we trying to omit the guy that finished 15th in a lites main event from being able to enter this race?

For me....if i can afford to race, qualify, and then go to Lorretta Lynn then i will. Whether or not a former pro also goes doesn't matter to me. I just think that a line in the sand needs to be drawn and clarified. If we have the rule....then how does it work and will it be followed?
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moto804
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12/16/2021 11:44am
Moto520 wrote:
So....to be clear....if you raced in a 125 east supercross class in 1995 and finished 15th.....are you eligible for the sportsman's class? When did they start...
So....to be clear....if you raced in a 125 east supercross class in 1995 and finished 15th.....are you eligible for the sportsman's class? When did they start paying points that count? Are we trying to omit the guy that finished 15th in a lites main event from being able to enter this race?

For me....if i can afford to race, qualify, and then go to Lorretta Lynn then i will. Whether or not a former pro also goes doesn't matter to me. I just think that a line in the sand needs to be drawn and clarified. If we have the rule....then how does it work and will it be followed?
If you ever scored a point in AMA Pro MX or SX (125/Lites/250F included), then you can not ride the Sportsman classes (for 2022 that is +30, +40, and +45) at Loretta's.

Easily enforceable as The Vault can be used as a quick reference to weed people out.
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Falcon
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12/17/2021 9:17am
Falcon wrote:
I like it. I doubt I'll ever have the time or money to compete at Loretta's, but now there's a class for me that I could...
I like it. I doubt I'll ever have the time or money to compete at Loretta's, but now there's a class for me that I could conceivably qualify for (+45 Sportsman.) I honestly wouldn't have much hope of qualifying in a class that held former pros, because they all live the places where I'd be doing my areas and regionals. Not much chance of me beating the likes of Emig, Lechien, Hughes, et. al.
That's great, but even in prior years you don't have to beat them, you just have to qualify in the top 40 based on your Area...
That's great, but even in prior years you don't have to beat them, you just have to qualify in the top 40 based on your Area or Regionals.....and you can go to those races in other parts of the country too.
Top 40 in the nation; it's a much smaller pool from each region, and you have to finish in a top position in the area just to go to the region, then finish near the top at that race. Not an easy thing to do, and having former pros take several spots ahead of me makes it that much slimmer. (Let's face it, I'm fast but not THAT fast! I can't usually hang with the dudes from my generation who went pro.)

As for traveling all over the country to try a different region, I'm out.

Major props to anyone who qualifies for Loretta's in any class!
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FreshTopEnd
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12/17/2021 9:56am
"Don't let fast guys race me so that I can pretend that I'm fast."

I get that ex pros are another level talent and that it would suck if a retired guy who loved racing entered your class and you decide in your mind you have no chance. They're stealing your candy. But adults tied in a knot on this may need to keep a little perspective about proving yourself to be the world's tallest midget at the amateur level by avoiding talent.
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Moto520
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12/17/2021 9:58am
Moto520 wrote:
So....to be clear....if you raced in a 125 east supercross class in 1995 and finished 15th.....are you eligible for the sportsman's class? When did they start...
So....to be clear....if you raced in a 125 east supercross class in 1995 and finished 15th.....are you eligible for the sportsman's class? When did they start paying points that count? Are we trying to omit the guy that finished 15th in a lites main event from being able to enter this race?

For me....if i can afford to race, qualify, and then go to Lorretta Lynn then i will. Whether or not a former pro also goes doesn't matter to me. I just think that a line in the sand needs to be drawn and clarified. If we have the rule....then how does it work and will it be followed?
moto804 wrote:
If you ever scored a point in AMA Pro MX or SX (125/Lites/250F included), then you can not ride the Sportsman classes (for 2022 that is...
If you ever scored a point in AMA Pro MX or SX (125/Lites/250F included), then you can not ride the Sportsman classes (for 2022 that is +30, +40, and +45) at Loretta's.

Easily enforceable as The Vault can be used as a quick reference to weed people out.
When did they begin giving points for the regional sx series? Has it always been this way? I know they do it now but in 1987?
loftyair
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12/17/2021 9:59am
I wonder if some super fast dude won't turn pro, just to smoke at lorettas!
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FreshTopEnd
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12/17/2021 10:03am
Moto520 wrote:
The problem is in the exceptions. The constant exceptions to the rules. I don't care who races with me or any of that. I just want...
The problem is in the exceptions. The constant exceptions to the rules. I don't care who races with me or any of that. I just want the rules to be the rules and to have them be enforceable.
What are these offensive or unfair exceptions? Seriously, I don't follow LL that closely apart from appreciating that there is good racing and some people are happy and some people are not, just like people tend to be when get or don't get what they want.
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Moto Nomad
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12/17/2021 10:48am
I'd be more psyched about lining up with Jeff Emig, Ryan Hughes and Mike Brown than I would care about my finish. That would be a bucket list item.
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moto804
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12/17/2021 2:20pm
Moto520 wrote:
When did they begin giving points for the regional sx series? Has it always been this way? I know they do it now but in 1987?
I dont remember exactly when regional SX points started counting for Top 100 National numbers, but that is not the same criteria used here.

For the Sportsman age classes they use any AMA SX/MX points regardless of class. That went into place a few years ago when they gave up on trying to Police the B/C class that people kept finding exceptions to drop down to.

See you at Sunset for the AQ in May?
Forty
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12/17/2021 3:43pm
Moto Nomad wrote:
I'd be more psyched about lining up with Jeff Emig, Ryan Hughes and Mike Brown than I would care about my finish. That would be a...
I'd be more psyched about lining up with Jeff Emig, Ryan Hughes and Mike Brown than I would care about my finish. That would be a bucket list item.
This. Just race!
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