Pro age rule, youth wasted? Kitchen and Kilroy aren’t the only fast guys in the amateurs.

APLMAN99
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A dumb unnecessary rule. Exactly what is it doing for the sport?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Your example of it being dumb and unnecessary, wasn’t a very good example. Sounds like you have a grand solution for something that really isn’t a...
Your example of it being dumb and unnecessary, wasn’t a very good example.

Sounds like you have a grand solution for something that really isn’t a problem.
Let’s just make rules that are good for today. (Sarcasm)
When JS7 wins a title his 1st yeat, you don’t think he was ready before that?
I'm not even entirely sure that he was 'ready' when he did move up.....

From a speed perspective? Sure.

From a maturity level and understanding longer term thinking? Probably not.

People generally do a lot of emotional and intellectual development during those early to mid teens that defines a lot of their later lives. The vast majority of them are not fully ready to make important decisions at 13-15 years old. Anyone who believes that they are is looking at it through the dusty lenses of age (or is youthful enough to not understand in the first place).

Again, you have a solution with no problem. You used Ward as an example, yet it didn't even apply to him at all.

So again I ask, what is your major bitch here? Do you really need to taste blood of children racing against older men in order to satisfy a gladiatorial fetish of some kind?
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loftyair
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8/17/2021 8:09am
Hey x games, make those skateboarders be 18, mmmKay?
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mx 219
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8/17/2021 8:19am
Didnt Ryan Dungey win his 1st 450 sx title at 19, and then went to win the outdoor title that same year? hahaha

20..born in 1989, turned 21 at the end of that season.
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ns503
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8/17/2021 9:11am
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP?

He threw out the Deegan name, but does OP know if he even has a problem with the rule?
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The Shop

rohleder644
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8/17/2021 9:23am
I say push the age to 18. These kids get fuckin wrecked as it is. A couple years of that and they’re out on their asses. I’m not mad at the idea of giving them a couple extra years to mature and make better decisions.
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SilverSpurs
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8/17/2021 9:43am
early wrote:
Seems like Kitchen is turning pro when he is ready to, same goes for Justin Cooper. Come to think of it the young pros have been...
Seems like Kitchen is turning pro when he is ready to, same goes for Justin Cooper. Come to think of it the young pros have been getting chewed up and spit out, while the "older" guys have been having success. Jett Lawrence just turned 18 and even he doesn't have any titles yet.
65cc World Champion doesn't count?
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Johnny Depp
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8/17/2021 9:51am
The proven fact that many times in history, 16 year olds have been the FMOTP is lost on most here.
Logic tells us that there have been 12-15 year olds that could also be competitive. That’s a race I’d like to see.
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yak651
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The proven fact that many times in history, 16 year olds have been the FMOTP is lost on most here. Logic tells us that there have...
The proven fact that many times in history, 16 year olds have been the FMOTP is lost on most here.
Logic tells us that there have been 12-15 year olds that could also be competitive. That’s a race I’d like to see.
Go watch them race the supermini class, pretty impressive what they can do on those bikes
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DC
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8/17/2021 10:00am
Youthful bodies, mindset and speed wasted on LL’s. DQ’s for being too young. Let the kids race with the Pro’s again.
DC wrote:
The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but...
The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but he apparently just didn't know the rule. (I wish someone would have pointed out his age in qualifying but whatever route he took, no one caught the fact that he would not be 16 before Loretta Lynn's.) He did end up winning a 250 B class. The AMA Pro Racing minimum age has been 16 since 1972. The only recent change is that you now have to be 18 to race the 450 Pro MX class in Lucas Oil Pro Motocross.

And they do let A-level amateurs race with pros again--Kitchen entered RedBud--but you still have to be 16.

DC
Racer X



Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out...
Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a convenient world I live in online huh?
And thanks for pointing out the rider involved in the DQ, personally his press agent couldn’t have planned it any better than the way it went down. I guess it also kind of shows that the rule is ludicrous IMO since he won.
Is it possible that Bubba and Ricky could have a much longer win list if they were allowed to compete earlier? Being able to dominate your first year obviously means there was plenty of speed before that.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/amp/sport/2002/august/stewart-becomes-yo…
As you well know, history is full of riders trying to race before they are 16 and not get caught.
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
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yak651
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8/17/2021 10:02am
ns503 wrote:
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP? He threw out the Deegan...
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP?

He threw out the Deegan name, but does OP know if he even has a problem with the rule?
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race a 250f against Cooper and Martin tomorrow. Let's see what class he races next year at LL, want to put odds on it not being Pro Sport?
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DonM
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8/17/2021 10:12am
ns503 wrote:
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP? He threw out the Deegan...
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP?

He threw out the Deegan name, but does OP know if he even has a problem with the rule?
yak651 wrote:
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race...
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race a 250f against Cooper and Martin tomorrow. Let's see what class he races next year at LL, want to put odds on it not being Pro Sport?
Why would it be? He’s just coming off his one and only year on a supermini….he’ll be in a B class in 22
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yak651
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8/17/2021 10:18am Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 10:19am
ns503 wrote:
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP? He threw out the Deegan...
Is anybody who might actually be affected by this rule (riders under 16) actually complaining about it? Or just the OP?

He threw out the Deegan name, but does OP know if he even has a problem with the rule?
yak651 wrote:
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race...
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race a 250f against Cooper and Martin tomorrow. Let's see what class he races next year at LL, want to put odds on it not being Pro Sport?
DonM wrote:
Why would it be? He’s just coming off his one and only year on a supermini….he’ll be in a B class in 22
I agree 100% Depp is the one saying the rules are preventing us from seeing Deegan race pro class, I'm just pointing out that from an outsider it seems they would have no interest in that(at this time).
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DonM
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8/17/2021 10:27am
yak651 wrote:
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race...
I highly doubt Deegan does as he didn't even want to race the 125 class. Pretty sure he has no desire to step up and race a 250f against Cooper and Martin tomorrow. Let's see what class he races next year at LL, want to put odds on it not being Pro Sport?
DonM wrote:
Why would it be? He’s just coming off his one and only year on a supermini….he’ll be in a B class in 22
yak651 wrote:
I agree 100% Depp is the one saying the rules are preventing us from seeing Deegan race pro class, I'm just pointing out that from an...
I agree 100% Depp is the one saying the rules are preventing us from seeing Deegan race pro class, I'm just pointing out that from an outsider it seems they would have no interest in that(at this time).
Yeah he’s way out in left field in most threads he’s in…his throttle must be stuck…
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Johnny Depp
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8/17/2021 10:28am Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 12:10pm
DC wrote:
The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but...
The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but he apparently just didn't know the rule. (I wish someone would have pointed out his age in qualifying but whatever route he took, no one caught the fact that he would not be 16 before Loretta Lynn's.) He did end up winning a 250 B class. The AMA Pro Racing minimum age has been 16 since 1972. The only recent change is that you now have to be 18 to race the 450 Pro MX class in Lucas Oil Pro Motocross.

And they do let A-level amateurs race with pros again--Kitchen entered RedBud--but you still have to be 16.

DC
Racer X



Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out...
Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a convenient world I live in online huh?
And thanks for pointing out the rider involved in the DQ, personally his press agent couldn’t have planned it any better than the way it went down. I guess it also kind of shows that the rule is ludicrous IMO since he won.
Is it possible that Bubba and Ricky could have a much longer win list if they were allowed to compete earlier? Being able to dominate your first year obviously means there was plenty of speed before that.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/amp/sport/2002/august/stewart-becomes-yo…
As you well know, history is full of riders trying to race before they are 16 and not get caught.
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s.
Thank goodness we saved Matti. He won the Qualifiers and 1st moto, but was surely a risk to himself and others…

Slow day in Morgantown?
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stremme12
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8/17/2021 10:40am Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 10:42am
DC wrote:
The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but...
The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but he apparently just didn't know the rule. (I wish someone would have pointed out his age in qualifying but whatever route he took, no one caught the fact that he would not be 16 before Loretta Lynn's.) He did end up winning a 250 B class. The AMA Pro Racing minimum age has been 16 since 1972. The only recent change is that you now have to be 18 to race the 450 Pro MX class in Lucas Oil Pro Motocross.

And they do let A-level amateurs race with pros again--Kitchen entered RedBud--but you still have to be 16.

DC
Racer X



Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out...
Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a convenient world I live in online huh?
And thanks for pointing out the rider involved in the DQ, personally his press agent couldn’t have planned it any better than the way it went down. I guess it also kind of shows that the rule is ludicrous IMO since he won.
Is it possible that Bubba and Ricky could have a much longer win list if they were allowed to compete earlier? Being able to dominate your first year obviously means there was plenty of speed before that.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/amp/sport/2002/august/stewart-becomes-yo…
As you well know, history is full of riders trying to race before they are 16 and not get caught.
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
DC,

Didn't Travis turn pro and win an outdoor title at 16 though? He and Stew are the only 2 to have outdoor titles at 16 correct?

Which just goes to show the 16 rule is just fine in professional motocross/supercross. It's not everyday you have 16 year old's turning pro and winning titles. It's quite rare.
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Johnny Depp
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8/17/2021 11:27am Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 12:27pm
Travis won XGames at 15. Bradshaw won a Japanese SX at 16.

edit, MXA quotes him saying he was 15. DOB 7/15/72
Osaka SX 11/13/88
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8/17/2021 11:37am
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally?

Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis.

I'm failing to see any connection there, literal, figurative, or conceptual, other than the vehicles both have wheels, albeit a different amount of wheels.

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early
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8/17/2021 11:56am
Six year olds, dude, six year olds

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stremme12
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8/17/2021 12:04pm
Bradshaw did win a pro race at 15 but it was not in Japan.
stremme12
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8/17/2021 12:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 12:07pm
early wrote:
Six year olds, dude, six year olds [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/08/17/506096/s1200_Screenshot_20210817_145501_Chrome.jpg[/img]
Six year olds, dude, six year olds

Osaka SX wasn't on 12/13 either. He doesn't have either date right.
DC
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8/17/2021 12:55pm Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 1:10pm
Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out...
Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a convenient world I live in online huh?
And thanks for pointing out the rider involved in the DQ, personally his press agent couldn’t have planned it any better than the way it went down. I guess it also kind of shows that the rule is ludicrous IMO since he won.
Is it possible that Bubba and Ricky could have a much longer win list if they were allowed to compete earlier? Being able to dominate your first year obviously means there was plenty of speed before that.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/amp/sport/2002/august/stewart-becomes-yo…
As you well know, history is full of riders trying to race before they are 16 and not get caught.
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s. Thank goodness we saved Matti. He...
Don’t forget Roczen, Tortelli, Tripes and Lechein, Bradshaw, Reynard and more. And 450’s are easier to ride fast than 125’s.
Thank goodness we saved Matti. He won the Qualifiers and 1st moto, but was surely a risk to himself and others…

Slow day in Morgantown?
None of those guys were the "FMOTP" until they were older. James Stewart in 2002 didn't even win the 125 SX series, and outdoors, Carmichael went 24-0 in the 250 class...

And of all the guys you mention--Triples, Tortelli, Lechien, Bradshaw, Reynard, Roczen--only Roczen ever won a premier-class AMA title. They all got hurt early and often, which is exactly what would happen to a 15-year-old on a 450 in SX/MX, but we'll never take that chance because it's the wrong thing to do.

And there's never a slow day in Morgantown, but when I see something as stupid as your argument here, it's fun to bench race a little, knowing I won't be wasting any tear-offs... (just kidding there, I do enjoy a good bench race and good ideas, I just don't feel like this is the direction SX/MX should go in this day and age)

Carry on.

DC
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DC
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8/17/2021 12:59pm Edited Date/Time 8/17/2021 12:59pm
DC wrote:
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when...
That history was before we had 450cc four-stroke motorcycles for kids to grapple with. How can you let a kid race a dirt bike professionally when is too young to even drive a car legally?

James Stewart was the exception at 16. Even Ricky and Travis were 17 before they turned pro, and all were on 125s, not 450s. Today's 450 is not for children, no matter how good you think they are...

DC
Racer X
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally? Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis...
How can you let a kid race a dirtbike professionally when he can't drive a car legally?

Because dirtbikes don't have license plates. Final answer, Regis.

I'm failing to see any connection there, literal, figurative, or conceptual, other than the vehicles both have wheels, albeit a different amount of wheels.

Go tell that to the insurance-provider of your professional series.

DC
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CPR
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8/17/2021 3:29pm
The age rule is fine, what’s missing is an AMX125 class.
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yak651
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CPR wrote:
The age rule is fine, what’s missing is an AMX125 class.
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented racers
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mx 219
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8/17/2021 6:58pm
CPR wrote:
The age rule is fine, what’s missing is an AMX125 class.
yak651 wrote:
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented...
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented racers
I agree, let there be either Supermini or 125 racing on the same day. Deegan just pointed out that he and Levi Kitchen don't believe our amateur system prepares you for the pros, so have some racing that does, maybe do at least 20 minutes plus 2.

I remember watching JS7 race Broc Hepler on 80s back in the day, probably around 2000, at High Point, if nothing else that would be cool to see. Hepler kept JS7 honest too until he got a flat, I think they had such a big gap on 3rd he still got 2nd.
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Jack_Wagon
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8/17/2021 7:19pm
Our Pro Racing program is what's truly flawed. Two laps of practice and then straight into qualifying??? No time to learn the track, no time to make changes to the bike, no time to try different lines. Sure there's two sessions, but probably 90% of the time the fast laps come in the first 3 laps of the first session. Want to train our amateurs for the pros? Give them two laps of practice then tell them to go as fast as they can, otherwise go home. The National program really needs an overhaul. I feel this is the main reason we have fallen behind the Euros.
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DC
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8/18/2021 5:36am
CPR wrote:
The age rule is fine, what’s missing is an AMX125 class.
yak651 wrote:
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented...
Yep DC conveniently forgot to touch on that or a amateur race series based on the MXGP model that seems to be turning out some talented racers
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before and didn't forget this fact, it's just not part of the "lower the age" conversation.

MXGP has maybe 18 actual races a year; AMA has 30. Teams do not want two-day events, they are already on the road for too long. I wish I could change their minds but I can't. And I don't think anyone wants SX-only deals for many, which is what we had before.

DC
Racer X

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Cortami79
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8/18/2021 5:39am
DC wrote:
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before...
Sorry, we just don't have time in a single-day format to have a third class for anyone: 125s, WMX, two-strokes, minicyles... I have said this before and didn't forget this fact, it's just not part of the "lower the age" conversation.

MXGP has maybe 18 actual races a year; AMA has 30. Teams do not want two-day events, they are already on the road for too long. I wish I could change their minds but I can't. And I don't think anyone wants SX-only deals for many, which is what we had before.

DC
Racer X

That sucks.. I hoped we could see some changes in the future in the USA as well on that part. EMX125, 250 provides great racing and is excellent to spot new talents and get experience
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