Pro age rule, youth wasted? Kitchen and Kilroy aren’t the only fast guys in the amateurs.

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8/16/2021 3:21 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

The Lawrence bro’s didn’t hide from competition in the Pro’s, they dove into the deep end to learn. It’s working.

early wrote:

Who was the last pro to win a title under the age of 18? Who is holding them back from turning pro at 16? Complaining that a ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

If a rider can compete in the top 10 1st race they were held back too long IMO. They don’t have to win a championship for it ...more

10-20?….come on you can’t be serious….What’s changed is the number of riders getting paid as amateurs and the teams are making the decisions as to what classes and when the rider is going to go pro, not the rider or their families.
Because of this you have kids staying longer than they did before.

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“I’m not Swap…”

8/16/2021 3:27 PM

early wrote:

Who was the last pro to win a title under the age of 18? Who is holding them back from turning pro at 16? Complaining that a ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

If a rider can compete in the top 10 1st race they were held back too long IMO. They don’t have to win a championship for it ...more

DonM wrote:

10-20?….come on you can’t be serious….What’s changed is the number of riders getting paid as amateurs and the teams are making ...more

Yes I’m serious, I’m not talking about top 10 or podium winners, I’m talking about qualifying for either the 450 or the 250 class. The fields are not that deep.

If someone can podium or win their championship their first year at 16, and history shows there have been several, you don’t think at 15 they could’ve qualified and been racing with the big boys?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sébastien_Tortelli#World_championship_career

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8/16/2021 3:32 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Youthful bodies, mindset and speed wasted on LL’s. DQ’s for being too young. Let the kids race with the Pro’s again.

The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very good--Matti Jorgensen--but he apparently just didn't know the rule. (I wish someone would have pointed out his age in qualifying but whatever route he took, no one caught the fact that he would not be 16 before Loretta Lynn's.) He did end up winning a 250 B class. The AMA Pro Racing minimum age has been 16 since 1972. The only recent change is that you now have to be 18 to race the 450 Pro MX class in Lucas Oil Pro Motocross.

And they do let A-level amateurs race with pros again--Kitchen entered RedBud--but you still have to be 16.

DC
Racer X



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8/16/2021 3:39 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

They aren’t the only fast amateurs. History is full of under 16 phenoms. KR94 won a GP at 15.
USA and the sport would prosper ...more

stremme12 wrote:

That's fine. My question was what does the Pro age rule have to do with it? Even having it set at 16 you're still not getting ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Tripes and others have beaten the world’s best with no driver’s license. Why prevent the next Stewart or RC from lining up?

Come on man. This isn't the 70's. Just answer one question.

What person didn't turn pro this year due to the Pro age rule?

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8/16/2021 3:42 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/16/2021 3:46 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Youthful bodies, mindset and speed wasted on LL’s. DQ’s for being too young. Let the kids race with the Pro’s again.

DC wrote:

The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very ...more

Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a convenient world I live in online huh?
And thanks for pointing out the rider involved in the DQ, personally his press agent couldn’t have planned it any better than the way it went down. I guess it also kind of shows that the rule is ludicrous IMO since he won.
Is it possible that Bubba and Ricky could have a much longer win list if they were allowed to compete earlier? Being able to dominate your first year obviously means there was plenty of speed before that.
https://www.motorcyclenews.com/amp/sport/2002/august/stewart-becomes-youngest-ama-125-champ/
As you well know, history is full of riders trying to race before they are 16 and not get caught.

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8/16/2021 3:43 PM

stremme12 wrote:

That's fine. My question was what does the Pro age rule have to do with it? Even having it set at 16 you're still not getting ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Tripes and others have beaten the world’s best with no driver’s license. Why prevent the next Stewart or RC from lining up?

stremme12 wrote:

Come on man. This isn't the 70's. Just answer one question.

What person didn't turn pro this year due to the Pro age rule?

Deegan for 1.

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8/16/2021 4:07 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Tripes and others have beaten the world’s best with no driver’s license. Why prevent the next Stewart or RC from lining up?

stremme12 wrote:

Come on man. This isn't the 70's. Just answer one question.

What person didn't turn pro this year due to the Pro age rule?

Johnny Depp wrote:

Deegan for 1.

He’s 15 and was in his first and only year of supermini and you expect him to turn pro? He’s not even close to being ready…The only one of amateurs that are 16 or under that would have any business lining up at the nationals full time is Chance Hymas

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“I’m not Swap…”

8/16/2021 4:33 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/16/2021 4:35 PM

stremme12 wrote:

Come on man. This isn't the 70's. Just answer one question.

What person didn't turn pro this year due to the Pro age rule?

Johnny Depp wrote:

Deegan for 1.

DonM wrote:

He’s 15 and was in his first and only year of supermini and you expect him to turn pro? He’s not even close to being ready…The ...more

He’s ridden big bikes plenty, check YouTube. It’s not my fault he chose a bike too small for him. There was a time when our minibike heroes cut their teeth with three digit numbers in the back of a pack. Here’s the flying freckle in 1978.
I’ve always believed you are going to learn more riding with faster riders than you are riding around in front of the pack.
Photo

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8/16/2021 4:52 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

The Lawrence bro’s didn’t hide from competition in the Pro’s, they dove into the deep end to learn. It’s working.

early wrote:

Who was the last pro to win a title under the age of 18? Who is holding them back from turning pro at 16? Complaining that a ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

If a rider can compete in the top 10 1st race they were held back too long IMO. They don’t have to win a championship for it ...more

I see your point but that’s not the way our system works. We don’t give riders time to make the fast 40 and work their way up. They are expected to by top 10. It’s a broken system that chews up riders and spits them out too soon.

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8/16/2021 5:19 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Youthful bodies, mindset and speed wasted on LL’s. DQ’s for being too young. Let the kids race with the Pro’s again.

DC wrote:

The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a ...more

So, if I've read this thread correctly, these kids aren't on the career trajectory that you think they should be on, and you're butthurt about it. Interesting take...

Purely from a safety standpoint, what do you think is going to happen if these factory kids are encouraged to go from a mini bike to a 250f at even earlier ages than they already do? You might see some guys have success, but you'd more than likely have a ton of guys getting hurt, because they aren't physically mature enough to ride a bike that heavy/powerful.

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8/16/2021 5:23 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/16/2021 5:24 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Tripes and others have beaten the world’s best with no driver’s license. Why prevent the next Stewart or RC from lining up?

stremme12 wrote:

Come on man. This isn't the 70's. Just answer one question.

What person didn't turn pro this year due to the Pro age rule?

Johnny Depp wrote:

Deegan for 1.

😂 you just shot a hole in your argument as big as the Grand Canyon choosing a rider still on a mini 😂😂

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8/16/2021 5:30 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Deegan for 1.

DonM wrote:

He’s 15 and was in his first and only year of supermini and you expect him to turn pro? He’s not even close to being ready…The ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

He’s ridden big bikes plenty, check YouTube. It’s not my fault he chose a bike too small for him. There was a time when our ...more

Jeff Ward was probably 17 during half of the pro races he did in 78….

So that doesn’t really apply as much as inferred.

He also didn’t win a title until his 7th season, so it’s likely that those who think that he came out too early or too late would both think that they are correct …..

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8/16/2021 5:31 PM

DC wrote:

The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a ...more

Sully wrote:

So, if I've read this thread correctly, these kids aren't on the career trajectory that you think they should be on, and ...more

Because LL’s is so safe…

Let’s assume the object is to become a pro? Who has a better chance, someone with a top 10 or 15 finish in the nationals, or some B or C rider at LL’s?

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8/16/2021 5:42 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Because LL’s is so safe…

Let’s assume the object is to become a pro? Who has a better chance, someone with a top 10 or 15 ...more

I don’t think you understand how the system works.

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8/16/2021 5:43 PM

Matti Jorgenson was fine to ride 450B. The issue was that you have to be 16 to ride a bike 251cc and up. He would’ve been fine in that class on the 250

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8/16/2021 5:44 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Deegan for 1.

DonM wrote:

He’s 15 and was in his first and only year of supermini and you expect him to turn pro? He’s not even close to being ready…The ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

He’s ridden big bikes plenty, check YouTube. It’s not my fault he chose a bike too small for him. There was a time when our ...more

2 seconds of using the Google showed how silly this is and how little you actually understand.

Ward ended the season season at 17.

Deegan would end the 2023 season at 17.

Basically Deegan is 2 seasons away from your view of the ‘good old days’, so what is your actual bitch session about?

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8/16/2021 5:51 PM

DonM wrote:

He’s 15 and was in his first and only year of supermini and you expect him to turn pro? He’s not even close to being ready…The ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

He’s ridden big bikes plenty, check YouTube. It’s not my fault he chose a bike too small for him. There was a time when our ...more

APLMAN99 wrote:

2 seconds of using the Google showed how silly this is and how little you actually understand.

Ward ended the season season ...more

A dumb unnecessary rule. Exactly what is it doing for the sport?

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8/16/2021 6:23 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Youthful bodies, mindset and speed wasted on LL’s. DQ’s for being too young. Let the kids race with the Pro’s again.

DC wrote:

The DQ came to a 15-year-old kid who signed up for the 450 class, which is against AMA amateur rules. The kid is very ...more

Could he have raced that class on a 250F?

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8/16/2021 6:24 PM
Edited Date/Time: 8/16/2021 6:25 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Thanks for chiming in DC, as you know by now I’m not a big rules guy, I believe in letting the race track sort it out. What a ...more

Sully wrote:

So, if I've read this thread correctly, these kids aren't on the career trajectory that you think they should be on, and ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Because LL’s is so safe…

Let’s assume the object is to become a pro? Who has a better chance, someone with a top 10 or 15 ...more

"Because LL’s is so safe…" doesn't answer my question. What do you think is going to happen if these kids are encouraged/pressured to ride a 250f at earlier and earlier ages, because you think the age rule is stupid?


Edited to add: 109 – yes he could have, it was an Open class.

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8/16/2021 6:46 PM

Sully wrote:

"Because LL’s is so safe…" doesn't answer my question. What do you think is going to happen if these kids are ...more

Nothing except they will learn faster. I’d get rid of supermini’s for 125’s.

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8/16/2021 7:03 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Because LL’s is so safe…

Let’s assume the object is to become a pro? Who has a better chance, someone with a top 10 or 15 ...more

Sully wrote:

"Because LL’s is so safe…" doesn't answer my question. What do you think is going to happen if these kids are ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Nothing except they will learn faster. I’d get rid of supermini’s for 125’s.

Sink or swim...sounds totally logical (no it doesn't).

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8/16/2021 7:30 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

He’s ridden big bikes plenty, check YouTube. It’s not my fault he chose a bike too small for him. There was a time when our ...more

APLMAN99 wrote:

2 seconds of using the Google showed how silly this is and how little you actually understand.

Ward ended the season season ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

A dumb unnecessary rule. Exactly what is it doing for the sport?

Your example of it being dumb and unnecessary, wasn’t a very good example.

Sounds like you have a grand solution for something that really isn’t a problem.

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8/16/2021 7:33 PM

APLMAN99 wrote:

2 seconds of using the Google showed how silly this is and how little you actually understand.

Ward ended the season season ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

A dumb unnecessary rule. Exactly what is it doing for the sport?

APLMAN99 wrote:

Your example of it being dumb and unnecessary, wasn’t a very good example.

Sounds like you have a grand solution for ...more

Let’s just make rules that are good for today. (Sarcasm)
When JS7 wins a title his 1st yeat, you don’t think he was ready before that?

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8/16/2021 7:48 PM

Didnt Ryan Dungey win his 1st 450 sx title at 19, and then went to win the outdoor title that same year? hahaha

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8/16/2021 8:06 PM

Johnny Depp wrote:

Let’s just make rules that are good for today. (Sarcasm)
When JS7 wins a title his 1st yeat, you don’t think he was ready ...more

Ready to do what?

The fact that JS won a title his first year out is proof that the amateur system in those days did exactly what it was designed for. Preparing riders to make the step into the pros. Stew is a once in a generation talent and using him as the gold standard for any argument isnt a great idea. After all it was nearly 20 years ago now.

If your aim is for every rider trying to make it in the pro ranks to be decimated for 3 years by guys with families and mortgages who've had the advantage of a proper apprenticeship then great idea. Its also a good way to ensure nobody ever progresses.

Kitchen could've spent 5 years in the pros right now if you had your way. Are you suggesting after 5 years of getting his ass kicked he would've come out at Unadilla 2021 on a factory bike and gone top 10? No way, he woud've been chewed up and spat out or ran his family broke trying to chase the dream as a teenager. The way he did it is the correct way for someone of his ability. Jett Lawrence, James Stewart, Mike Alessi, Ricky Carmichael, Ken Roczen, they needed a different path. Neither is wrong.

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8/16/2021 8:41 PM

APLMAN99 wrote:

Your example of it being dumb and unnecessary, wasn’t a very good example.

Sounds like you have a grand solution for ...more

Johnny Depp wrote:

Let’s just make rules that are good for today. (Sarcasm)
When JS7 wins a title his 1st yeat, you don’t think he was ready ...more

haydos25 wrote:

Ready to do what?

The fact that JS won a title his first year out is proof that the amateur system in those days did exactly ...more

That was very well said and the people who think deegan is ready to turn pro right now have bumped their heads ..probably never seen the kid race in person or may have a couple times but are probably going off his you tube videos The kid is fast but at this time hes not even close to being the fastest amatuer racer..He is still a year or two away from being ready but at this time he not as fast as Hymas --Reynolds or Ryder D to name just a few..I do think he will have a great pro career but hes not ready to go pro now and that is just plain fact and im sure Brian would agree also..

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8/16/2021 9:19 PM

Hey at least you guys have Motocross in the states, MX in Australia is dead now, well except in QLD

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8/16/2021 9:28 PM

I think if you're the fastest dude in the world, you should be able to prove to be the fastest in the world, no matter age. I know that's very rare stretch, but still should be open. Some young kids wear bigger-boy pants than older dudes!

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8/16/2021 9:59 PM

I was thinking of Ron Lechien. I was 15 at the time and thought he was pretty cool.

The 16 year-old Californian on the #224 black-and-yellow Yamaha YZ250 had won his first professional AMA event. Shockingly, it came in a 250cc supercross (Orlando)—Lechien would win his first 125 National eight days later at Lake Whitney, Texas.

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8/16/2021 10:24 PM

KurtJ99 wrote:

I was thinking of Ron Lechien. I was 15 at the time and thought he was pretty cool.

The 16 year-old Californian on the #224 ...more

Definitely bad ass.

A 16 year old Ron Lechien today could still win a 250 supercross, and a 250 national with the current rules. I dont see any reason to let a 15 year old race a pro race though. A line needs to be set somewhere

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