You're the designer of Triumph, with a clean sheet of paper. What do you do?

yota
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7/24/2021 5:20am
bad juju wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/07/23/502753/s1200_8388653751_c2f2effb42_cannondale.jpg[/img]

no oil in the frame please.
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Mx746
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Marietta, GA, USA
7/24/2021 5:38am
copy the Honda MR50 and put a Triumph sticker on it, grow the sport ground up
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davis224
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Fantasy
7/24/2021 5:48am
Not really practical, but if they made a Grom/pitbike style Triumph with classic styling/steel tank/chrome/etc, that would be pretty damned cool and might need one to cruise around town on.

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The Shop

Bearuno
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7/24/2021 6:05am
bad juju wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/07/23/502753/s1200_8388653751_c2f2effb42_cannondale.jpg[/img]

One of those Chassis having been put to use:



I just found out a mate of mine had followed through with his threat to get a Cannondale. He sent me a picture of the last model VMax he'd just got, and I noticed a bloody Cannondale sitting behind it. Blink

He's got the rolling chassis and 2 engines. He didn't get the 'upgraded' ADB / ATK engines I'd suggested, long ago, when he was (repeating his) musing about finally getting a CDale. .

I'm going to do my very best to not get drawn into his bloody Cannondale obsession Sick Whistling
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endurox
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Garden City, ID, USA
7/24/2021 6:53am
Bring in at a price point at the Gas Gas level or less. A 200cc 2 stroke and 300-350 four stroke. Make the offroad models with at bit less travel as an option so easier to get a foot down for the technical stuff.
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BikePilot
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Golden, CO, USA
7/24/2021 7:19am
I would offer A Kit suspension as a factory upgrade option, probably much less costly for them to supply in lieu of whatever stock stuff they come up with than us to buy and swap over.
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Crush
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7/24/2021 7:24am
Pull apart a KTM and build that.
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7/24/2021 7:26am
50 KW (67hp) water cooled electric with auto trans (3-4 gears) with adjustable motor braking and mapping 2 quick change variable position batteries using only 1...
50 KW (67hp) water cooled electric with auto trans (3-4 gears) with adjustable motor braking and mapping
2 quick change variable position batteries using only 1 at a time (like a reserve) Only need 1 for MX
Left hand rear brake and foot brake with jackshaft mounted rear disc
50 mm spring/air forks with crossover tube and adjustable ride height
Side mounted spring/air shock, no linkage with adjustable shock mounting and shock length
Flex bars with rubber mounted adjustable height
Steel frame with adjustable steering head and steering dampener

Why build/invest in an ICE powertrain that would be obsolete in 5 years?



I'm here for this. Offer a full line of 4-strokes but give us a good electric motorcycle using forementioned battery standards so those can easily be swapped out later.

Alta had everything right going for them, they were ahead of the time. Triumph should aim to best Alta with electric bike technology and performance.

Also a 125 and 300 2-stroke would be dope.
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7/24/2021 7:44am
Big no to blacked out wheels, swingarm and/or frame. That look is stale, don't trash a new rollout with craigslist rebuild aesthetic.
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linker48x
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7/24/2021 9:33am
I would not go for some weird Harold design dictated by the marketing department, or some self-proclaimed “visionary genius” that thinks everything we know should be tossed in the trash. Racing design of all kinds is characterized by endless subtle refinement of established designs, not some radical departure from existing technology that introduces endless new variables that leave you out in the weeds. There’s a number of failed bikes mentioned in this thread that took that route—BMW, ATK, Cannondale and more examples back in the past. Triumph’s marketplace success will be based on its success on the track, not in the press kit, and the way to get there is to offer subtle developments on known designs. There’s a reason all motocross bikes and enduro bikes are so similar— because they work. I’ve been riding since the 60s and you can easily trace the excellent current bike design back through many patient, careful developments to those days. Triumph should concentrate on introducing no radical new fork or rear suspension concepts, no backwards upside down engine designs, automatic transmissions, or the like, just stuff that has been proven to work. Concentrate on mechanically durable expression of standard design, with weight at the lighter end of the spectrum. Success on the track and in the market will follow.
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7/24/2021 9:37am
ZOSICK wrote:
If it were me, I'd copy the KTM business model. As far as the bike goes, I'd pretty use a KTM. Steel frame, brakes, clutch, weight...
If it were me, I'd copy the KTM business model. As far as the bike goes, I'd pretty use a KTM. Steel frame, brakes, clutch, weight, E-start and suspension. Now some would argue the SSS forks but nothing sucks worse than paying 10-11K for a bike and then having to send off your forks for new springs. I'm trying to be partial here but in my opinion, the KTM's (HSQ/Gas Gas ect) offer the best platform. Let's not kid ourselves, a 250, 350 and 450's have plenty of power for 99% of the riders. If you say otherwise, you're in the 1%. But in all reality, you're probably in the 99% and not as fast as you really think you are, just saying lol. As far as price goes, 9-11K seems to be what everyone is paying. Who knows, charge $9,500 OTD and it will sell. That may also cause all the other brand to follow suit.

I have nothing against any other brand, I've owned or ridden them all. The only thing I would change with a KTM 250/350, put the camchain tensioner that the 450 has. Also, give me a damn skid plate and hand guards. I'm paying 10-11K for a bike and then have to buy a skid plate to protect the cases lol. that being said, I get it. Gotta help out the industry. I don't care to change my ECU or any of that crap. I want to get on the bike and ride. Yes, messing with he air in the forks gets old. However, it's nice to change my forks in seconds.
You still have to have your suspension set up on a KTM. The shock still has a spring and you need the suspension revalved to suit a persons skill/riding conditions. Once you find the proper air pressure (spring rate) for your weight and revalved to the type of riding you do, clickers should really be the only thing you mess with just like on a spring fork. It comes down to the lighter air fork feel vs the heavier spring fork feel. People have their preferences.
PFitzG38
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Newport Beach, CA, USA
7/24/2021 10:13am
50 KW (67hp) water cooled electric with auto trans (3-4 gears) with adjustable motor braking and mapping 2 quick change variable position batteries using only 1...
50 KW (67hp) water cooled electric with auto trans (3-4 gears) with adjustable motor braking and mapping
2 quick change variable position batteries using only 1 at a time (like a reserve) Only need 1 for MX
Left hand rear brake and foot brake with jackshaft mounted rear disc
50 mm spring/air forks with crossover tube and adjustable ride height
Side mounted spring/air shock, no linkage with adjustable shock mounting and shock length
Flex bars with rubber mounted adjustable height
Steel frame with adjustable steering head and steering dampener

Why build/invest in an ICE powertrain that would be obsolete in 5 years?



I like it, now your making sense. At first you lost me at the rear shock, but then I thought, let’s figure this out, so I’d I’d add some adjust on the fly suspension that could compensate for the PDS like rear and you could adjust depending on terrain. Either adjust manually like a mountain bike or have sensors or a pre programmed gps lit pro like device do it.
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mark911
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Ashville, OH, USA
7/24/2021 11:10am
The fear that performance, however you want to measure it, would regress due to the development and advancement of new applications to current technology is unfounded in todays modern manufacturing environment. The days of cut and fit, trial and error, and garage innovation are over. They've been replaced by sophisticated computer modeling, FEA analysis, multi physics/multi disciplined simulations, virtual testing and verification. Manufacturing technologies like CAD/CAM, 7 axis CNC, 3D Printing, etc, can translate the engineers computer design into final product who's tolerances and performance are virtually identical to those predicted. New lightweight engineered plastics and composites are outperforming aluminum in many cases.

The once often times "hit or miss" process of design, engineering and manufacturing has matured (due to knowledge and technology) so that even highly complex systems can developed successfully virtually first time out. The Chinese are killing it now using reverse engineering along with these new manufacturing technologies to build some pretty darn impressive stuff on the first try. Can you name a car built anywhere in the world and sold in the US today that's not of high quality and reliability? That's a testament to the rigor and discipline of the process and technology available today.

That's not to say that stupid engineers can't make stupid decisions, after all, it's GIGO. No system/process is immune to stupidity. However, with proper checks and balances, even stupid decisions can be mitigated.

Back to electric . . . . What some of us KNOW today and what the masses will come to realize soon enough it that electric is already within spitting distance of knocking any current MX model off the top of the box. No magic, no gimmicks, no hype, just good old fashioned engineering knowhow being applied to new technologies. Thanks Alta!

Listen to what AJ has to say. Alta's out of business and there's nobody else stepping up the the plate, so he's not getting paid to say anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1l3aynN3O0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoEbVPTCziw
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mac3-d
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7/27/2021 1:23pm
They don’t need to make a MX bike ! Picked this up last week

Just need to add off road tyres !
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Pop Shmoke
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7/28/2021 11:20am Edited Date/Time 7/28/2021 5:06pm
If I were them Id focus on e-bikes. Makes more sense to be ahead of the curve on the future, then behind the curve on the past. Nobody has that market figured out yet so they could get ahead, ice bikes are damn near perfected at this point and its gonna be hard enough to catch up let alone surpass someone like honda or ktm.

Theres a huge opportunity here and shifts like this only happen once in a generation. The big brands are already at the top of ice bikes, but nobody has risen to the top of electric. Its not inevitable that the big ice companies will just smoothly shift over to electric, look at the electric car market. We could end up with some entirely new brands that are better at programming and iterating with electronics. If alta hadnt went under they would have been the company to beat in this market. Its wide open right now so theres a huge opportunity. As much as i love ice dirtbikes from a business standpoint entering the market there makes no sense in 2021. If I were them Id be trying to be the top company of the next thing vs playing catchup with the current bikes only to have to switch eventually anyways.
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7/30/2021 12:11am
motokiwi wrote:
I would focus on the 450 class. Make a sx bike year 1, mx bike year 2, sand bike year 3. Make all 3 years parts...
I would focus on the 450 class.

Make a sx bike year 1, mx bike year 2, sand bike year 3.

Make all 3 years parts fit each other - so the factory team can easily build the best legal bike for any track.

License the ktm engine - but put in an alloy frame.

KYB suspension

Our own swingarm - so people dont automatically think its a ktm because of its blatent ktm spec swingarm



Random side idea:
Make a large option - with literally longer suspension and larger wheels, bigger frame / plastic etc - all 20% bigger - get hoosier to make some custom rubber for it.
Bikes were developed for 5ft 5 Japanese midgets - us 6 foot plus guys feel like we are riding mini bikes - its so hard to stand / have a proper moto stance compared to the short guys - someone cater for us and we will buy it.
The size idea is on target. Just don't only go one way. Fully adjustable for short or tall.

Sorry, what is a sand bike?
-Long wheel base with the perfect torsional rigidity for sand tracks a-la the Herlings factory frame.
-Engine thats optimized to be reliable under heavy load with slightly less hp and slightly more long lasting heavier parts. -May as well just make a ribi front end and use that. Long wheel base unbeatable sand machine - job tidy.

p.s hi Triumph design team that are no doubt looking at vital. I hope Ozzy is on the team. Im frothing at the bit excited for y'all
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BRX-WRX
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Blue Springs, MO, USA
7/30/2021 1:08am
We were so close to having American made MX-offroad bikes almost 10 years ago( HIGHLAND). Goggle what happened to Highland motorcycles . Really sad ending. They had a bike ready or near ready for production.
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Owen H
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Paducah, KY, USA
7/30/2021 8:50am
50 KW (67hp) water cooled electric with auto trans (3-4 gears) with adjustable motor braking and mapping 2 quick change variable position batteries using only 1...
50 KW (67hp) water cooled electric with auto trans (3-4 gears) with adjustable motor braking and mapping
2 quick change variable position batteries using only 1 at a time (like a reserve) Only need 1 for MX
Left hand rear brake and foot brake with jackshaft mounted rear disc
50 mm spring/air forks with crossover tube and adjustable ride height
Side mounted spring/air shock, no linkage with adjustable shock mounting and shock length
Flex bars with rubber mounted adjustable height
Steel frame with adjustable steering head and steering dampener

Why build/invest in an ICE powertrain that would be obsolete in 5 years?



Please stop.
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BobPA
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7/30/2021 9:36am
The return of an MX specific 20cc 2 stroke would be awesome.
Silas444
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7/30/2021 9:44am
If I were Sherlock Holmes, I'd deduce this:

1. Triumphs all have steel frames. So will these new bikes.
2. Triumph already uses Ohlins suspension components. The bikes will come stock with Ohlins.
3. Triumphs are not budget bikes. These won't be either.
4. Triumph is very British. The bikes will be very British, and will be either dark green or black.
5. Triumph is feeling cocky: There won't merely be a 450F. A 250F too, or they'll be electric.
6. Triumph doesn't have a factory MotoGP race team. They will look to moto to establish their racing reputation.
7. Triumph loves Steve McQueen, as do we all. They will work that angle.
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Bearuno
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7/30/2021 10:56am
Silas444 :

1 : Go to Triumphs website - you'll find both Steel and Aluminium frames. They know how to make either type.

2 : Yes, some Triumphs use Ohlins , as their various models top of the line specification - but, most have other brand suspension.

3 : You're probably right on that - with what we hope to be "Real, Performance Dirt Bikes". Though, with other types of small capacity bikes, that they and other manufacturers (can) make Big money on, and their involvement with Bajaj, And their (I think, at least 4?) Factories in Thailand, they surely have plans past "Real Performance Dirt Bikes".

4 : On the Black, I sure as hell hope not. But, you never know, Triumph might be able to make it look better that the usual try at it. British Racing Green - it sure would be something different.

5 : Capacities - yes, probably . Electric? Well to have a future, they / all manufacturers, are working on that.

6 : Yes, they've no MotoGP program. But heck, they've an entire class in Moto2, with their 765cc engines in use. So, they Are in modern, current Racing, already, in a pretty big way.

7 : Steve McQueen - yes, he's cool Cool to a Lot of us. We know he was so much more than the typical 'celebrity that is into bikes'. They'll probably put his name to use, If they are willing to pay his Estate to do so. But to 'youngsters', well, sadly, most have no idea who he was. As they (so smartarsedly ) say : "Never heard of her". Now, I'd want to give someone saying that, a bit of a talking to, or a scare, but, you can't do that nowadays, without getting into trouble...
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Kawboy14!
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7/30/2021 11:34am
RC is gonna help them build a KX
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Bearuno
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7/30/2021 11:23pm
On the colour thing.

I doubt they will be green, but I just saw an interesting take on 'British Racing Green' on a 2022 Orange Alpine Evo:



It's metallic ( I think) , so probably far from possible, but could look good, with no Kawasaki confusion, but a bit of a Brit Heritage 'thing' to it.
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Alan Dove
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7/31/2021 12:26am Edited Date/Time 7/31/2021 12:42am
Just want to comment on this electric thing because I think some are totally underestimating the challenge of them. The main reason is quite simple - culture. Cultures are formed around our senses whether that be music, food or art. Dirtbikes are no different. They look cool, they smell nice, and the sound good (especially 2-strokes). The reason no one is going big on selling electric dirbikes is because they are largely cultureless. The are almost silent and and no one likes the smell of batteries. Smell is HUGELY important. Watch Seirle's latest video on his CR250. The older guy literally starts to feel nervous from the smell alone. eliciting emotion is absolutely important if you want to sell bike.

The idea they'll one day perform better is a moot point because manufacturers build their bikes largely around the limits set out by the FIM. A manufacturer could could a 250 twin cylinder Di 2-stroke and probably smash anything else being made today.


Electric vehicles on great from a utilitarian point of view, especially road cars. Once they don't their one-rtick of hard accelerations they descend into the void of nothingness.

But dirt bikes arent utilitarian. It's a cultural phenomenon that makes very little coherent sense, i am sure companies will be bringing out electric options, but they know full well it's going to be a mighty challenge.

Also, electric propulsion will probably be a shared platform. From a competitive standpoint single-spec batteries might be mandated and that'll affect the geometry of the bike. Manufacturers will be hesitant to invest when the possibility of spec-components are in the equation.
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mark911
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7/31/2021 5:18am
I agree with your culture hypothesis. However, what you are totally underestimating is the desire and drive within human nature to compete and win.

If rider A is better than rider B, but rider B beats him every weekend at the track on an electric, what do you think rider A is gonna buy the next time he's/she's shopping for a new bike? That's what happened when everyone's buddy started beating them on that new fangled and hated 4 stroke. You simply had to switch to be competitive, like it or not.

All it's going to take is a good electric (slightly better than the Alta in some respects) and a critical mass of good, young, up and coming riders aboard them and you'll see. The wave will be launched and the company at the pointy end will reap the benefits just like Yamaha did in the late 90s. The AMA can help enable or hinder the evolution, but they'd be crazy if they didn't because eventually, the bikes racing SX and the Nationals will not represent the bikes being bought by the public and raced on the weekends. Folks will lose interest, ratings will fall and the series will languish. Meanwhile, a smart business person will see an opportunity to start a new inclusive series which understands electric tech and embraces it. The AMA will find itself outside looking in.

This talk about "shared platform" battery packs among manufactures will probably only apply to their non-competition/street models. That makes sense in the future. Pull in to a service/charge station and simply swap packs. However, the mfgs would be crazy to agree to the same for the competition/race models. Battery tech is like suspension tech in the mid seventies. There's so may options and new ideas/products being tried that there's no "right answer" at the moment or in the foreseeable future. That's what will differentiate the different brands and give them that competitive advantage if they engineer a better pack. And a better pack will equate to better sales. Why would they agree to forfeit what probably will be the biggest product differentiator since we went from dual shock to links? Bottom line, they wont.


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Alan Dove
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7/31/2021 7:31am Edited Date/Time 7/31/2021 7:33am
mark911 wrote:
I agree with your culture hypothesis. However, what you are totally underestimating is the desire and drive within human nature to compete and win. If rider...
I agree with your culture hypothesis. However, what you are totally underestimating is the desire and drive within human nature to compete and win.

If rider A is better than rider B, but rider B beats him every weekend at the track on an electric, what do you think rider A is gonna buy the next time he's/she's shopping for a new bike? That's what happened when everyone's buddy started beating them on that new fangled and hated 4 stroke. You simply had to switch to be competitive, like it or not.

All it's going to take is a good electric (slightly better than the Alta in some respects) and a critical mass of good, young, up and coming riders aboard them and you'll see. The wave will be launched and the company at the pointy end will reap the benefits just like Yamaha did in the late 90s. The AMA can help enable or hinder the evolution, but they'd be crazy if they didn't because eventually, the bikes racing SX and the Nationals will not represent the bikes being bought by the public and raced on the weekends. Folks will lose interest, ratings will fall and the series will languish. Meanwhile, a smart business person will see an opportunity to start a new inclusive series which understands electric tech and embraces it. The AMA will find itself outside looking in.

This talk about "shared platform" battery packs among manufactures will probably only apply to their non-competition/street models. That makes sense in the future. Pull in to a service/charge station and simply swap packs. However, the mfgs would be crazy to agree to the same for the competition/race models. Battery tech is like suspension tech in the mid seventies. There's so may options and new ideas/products being tried that there's no "right answer" at the moment or in the foreseeable future. That's what will differentiate the different brands and give them that competitive advantage if they engineer a better pack. And a better pack will equate to better sales. Why would they agree to forfeit what probably will be the biggest product differentiator since we went from dual shock to links? Bottom line, they wont.


These are interesting points, but this young wave hypothesis I don't think is what you think it is. The average age of the Tesla only is what? Over 50. Electric vehicles aren't necessarily for 'young people'. Plus, what young person wants to risk their own skin? What young person environmentally conscious wants to tear up natural habitat? People think electric is going to save motorsport because the 'yoooof'. I am a tad more skeptical. It's a lot more challlenging than people realise.


IN terms of desire to win. The point is, that is entirely down to the governing body. The reason people switched to 4-stroke was because they were allowed double the capacity by the governing body for racing. Why would Triumph invest in a technical platform when the governing body has made not moves to change towards that?

Electric tech in a racing context is still unproven from a commercial standpoint. Formula E basically survives on government subisides that come via hosting fees and big manufacturers. Also they aren't selling the cars like bike manufacturers do with SX/MX. It doesn't represent a market of buyers like bike racing does. FE also use spec batteries.

So in terms of business risk Triumph absolutely will have 'electric' as something to look at, but their first models will have to be 250/450 otherwise they risk wasting millions of pounds. Coming out with an electric bike you can't race anywhere, and not eliciting the kind of emotion attached to motorbike would be an overwhelmingly risky thing to do, with little reward.

I am not 'anti-electric', I am just very skeptical about the ease at which people think a sport can transition.
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flarider
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7/31/2021 1:27pm
I think it needs a roost boost
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